Warren: Pats getting away from 3-4.

[patsfan-1982]

i still dont see the pats useing a base 4-3 i think they will just be playing a lot of nickle to stop the passing game but WOW Ty Warren cut ? even if they do play a 4-3 who are the DE's there must be a one more trade in the works

and i just seen Brandon Deaderick and Ron Brace are on PUP dont know whats worng with them but right now the pats cant run a base 3-4 or 4-3

 

[Fencer]

Just a couple of quick things.

1.) I do not like the idea of going 4-3, and I don't think it suits the talent.

2.) I believe this was a discussion on the board last year.

3.) I believe the Patriots began camp using 4-3 last year.

4.) I still have no idea what the hell Belichick was thinking when he cut Warren

I would also suggest that there may be pedagogical reasons the 4-3 is run early in camp every year.

1. It's kind of like the Pats' base defense.
2. It's also kind of like the nickel defense, which the Pats run about as often as they do the base.
3. It's also kind of like the short-yardage sub defense.
4. It's also kind of like the one-gap 4-3 some new Pats played last year.

I.e. if there's a single set in which to teach things useful in a variety of packages, the 2-gap 4-3 may be it.

 

[Steamer86]

The Pats are so predictable. Either they they run a 3-4, 4-3 , 2-5, 5-2, 0-7, 1-6 or just call "Yahtzee". Obviously every fan on this site knows the play call on defense for every play 3 or 4 weeks in advance. I'm so happy we're surrounded by all these MIT Robotic Engineers.

Lame post. Sorry fans are talking about potential defensive schemes on Patsfan website. I guess we shouldn't be able to speculate on what roster moves mean. We should all just shut our ears and mouths until the opener and then see what we get, otherwise we are trying to be MIT Robotic Engineers....

 

[NordicVoyager]

Nothing wrong with MIT Robotic Engineers!!

 

[patsfan13]

There will be uses for 1 gap. In 3rd down passing situations Playing Wilfolk and Haynesworth as 1 gap DT will collapse a lot of pockets. People forget that Wilfolk can be a devastating rusher in this sort of scheme, we have gotten used to hiim in the 2 gap NT role. What bothers Qb's the most (inc Brady) pressure up the middle. In a 4-2-5 we put Mayo/Guyton in Cunningham/Moore at DE.

BB wants flexibility we won't go totally away from 3-4, but this could help the pass d.

 

[Simkin]

BB always looks faster than the other coaches in the league. I like it

But without being close to the cap we cant win anything

 

[patriotscpfc]

I actually think 4-3 (or 4-2-5) fits our personnel more than the 3-4.

You've got Big Al and Wright who can get after the passer from the DT spot. You've got Vince and Brace who can stop the run. Teams will not be able to run on a Vince and Haynesworth DT position. And having Brace and Wright as well as Kyle Love in there to spell the 2 big guys will be massive.

We are a 4-3DE opposite Cunningham away from one of the best 4-man lines in the league.

The formation used yesterday was Cunningham-Love-Wilfork-Moore. Take Love out for Haynesworth and they are going to have trouble double-teaming both. If we use the cap space on a high level DE, Cunningham could be what a lot of Patriots wanted to get in free agency this off-season. Ray Edwards.

In the 4-2-5, you'd likely have a Mayo/Guyton combination which was what was shown at Camp yesterday. But on 3rd down, i'd love to see Fletcher out there, tracking the RB down like he did so well against Baltimore.

I think we'll see another few surprise cuts over the next few days, with a re-signing, extension and some quality free agents or traded-for players coming in.

 

[BritPat]

A few years ago I posted a hypothesis that the Pats may be considering transitioning back to the 4-3 with the amount of smaller linemen and linebackers we seemed to be interested in.

Maybe this is finally the case?

You've got two perfect DT's, Cunningham is a natural End, Mayo was a standout in the 4-3 at College level, as was Spikes - it makes a lot of sense. Maybe too much sense.

We have a lot of cap space - if we can pick up a true End and SLB, all bets are off.

 

[BlitzFritz]

i think you nailed it here. good insight

I think if you look at his salary combined with the way he rubbed the team the wrong way last year by getting his degree and then getting hurt and needing surgery, as well coming into camp this year and hurting his hamstring and failing the conditioning test, Bill just said enough is enough.

Two years in a row you come into camp not in shape/ready to go? Football is obviously not as important to him as it once was and there's no need to pay him a hefty salary if he's not 100% dedicated.

It's a bit disappointing though because a Warren Wilfork Haynesworth line in the base defense looked pretty formidable.

 

[patsfan13]

Moore and Deaderick showed good rush from the outside added to Cunningham it gives a few options outside for passing situations. Cunningham and Moore played wiithout a hand on the ground for a 2-4-5 look.

 

[Lansdowne]

According to Peter King, Ty Warren said he'll take the veteran minimum to sign with a contender. Sounds to me like he's more hurt than maybe we realize.

 

[Wretch]

First I will say I have no idea what BB will do so what I am about to post is pure speculation.

Lets consider a few things:

With talents like AH and VW on the DL you would want to maximize their time on the field. A 4 person front would allow that without asking either to play out of position. VW played DT at the U and played some DT last year.

Maybe another factor in a possible scheme change is the talent pool for 3-4 LBs and NTs. How long have we lamented at the lack of quality 3-4 LBs in the draft or available in FA? When they are available they are either drafted higher than the pats typically select or get gigantic contracts in FA. The talent pool will only get more shallow as more teams trend towards the 3-4, as we have seen recently.

The deeper talent pool for 4-3 personnel could also factor into a salary cap issue. With the lower cap less expensive players on the DL and LB will make it easier to afford elite OL, WR and QBs moving forward.

Just some idle speculation.

 

[ausbacker]

First I will say I have no idea what BB will do so what I am about to post is pure speculation.

Lets consider a few things:

With talents like AH and VW on the DL you would want to maximize their time on the field. A 4 person front would allow that without asking either to play out of position. VW played DT at the U and played some DT last year.

Maybe another factor in a possible scheme change is the talent pool for 3-4 LBs and NTs. How long have we lamented at the lack of quality 3-4 LBs in the draft or available in FA? When they are available they are either drafted higher than the pats typically select or get gigantic contracts in FA. The talent pool will only get more shallow as more teams trend towards the 3-4, as we have seen recently.

The deeper talent pool for 4-3 personnel could also factor into a salary cap issue. With the lower cap less expensive players on the DL and LB will make it easier to afford elite OL, WR and QBs moving forward.

Just some idle speculation.

There's always the chance we could simply stay with a 3-4 given Richard Seymour is 6'6 and 310 where Haynesworth is 6'6 335. 25 pounds is 11 kilograms give or take. That's Christmas lunch for a lineman surely?

 

[DaBruinz]

The formation used yesterday was Cunningham-Love-Wilfork-Moore. Take Love out for Haynesworth and they are going to have trouble double-teaming both. If we use the cap space on a high level DE, Cunningham could be what a lot of Patriots wanted to get in free agency this off-season. Ray Edwards.

How do you know the Pats wanted to get Ray Edwards?????

 

[Wretch]

There's always the chance we could simply stay with a 3-4 given Richard Seymour is 6'6 and 310 where Haynesworth is 6'6 335. 25 pounds is 11 kilograms give or take. That's Christmas lunch for a lineman surely?

Maybe, but that is why I made the point about AH not having to play out of position.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

I have been speculating that BB was gong to move to a 4-3. Lets face it, EVERYBODY is running the 3-4 now, which makes getting the talent that you need difficult.

We all realize that Vince is a superior defensive lineman, he is the best NT in the business, but he can also be a great 4-3 DT,now pair him with Fat Albert and you have two guys that will at the very least occupy the center and both guards. If I'm Spikes, I would be psyched to play MLB behind those two, he should have a clear path to the ball carrier.

I think that Cunningham is more suited for a 4-3 DE than a 3-4 OLB, ditto for Eric Moore.

Spikes was made to be a run stuffing 4-3 MLB, now move Mayo to the outside, clearly he has the talent to do that, and Nikovich on the other side and that is a very impressive (and still fairly young aside from the two tackles) front seven!

 

[ausbacker]

Maybe, but that is why I made the point about AH not having to play out of position.

I probably should have put that I agreed with you in there.

 

[DaBruinz]

I was surprised by the move, but I think it's more about his salary and production than a new scheme/system. I think if you look at his salary combined with the way he rubbed the team the wrong way last year by getting his degree and then getting hurt and needing surgery, as well coming into camp this year and hurting his hamstring and failing the conditioning test, Bill just said enough is enough.

Two years in a row you come into camp not in shape/ready to go? Football is obviously not as important to him as it once was and there's no need to pay him a hefty salary if he's not 100% dedicated.

It's amazing how people attempt to re-write history.

1) Warren's hip was hurt back in 2008. He played through the rest of 2008 and all of 2009 with the injury. That came out last year when the rehab hadn't helped the hip and he had the surgery.
2) This idea that the Pats were upset with Warren over him getting his degree is BS because the league and BB encourages the players to get their degree. There is/was a league program that helped the players to do so. And BB is a huge supporter of these guys getting their degrees before their careers are over.
3) Anyone who has EVER done any sort of regular training knows that you can pull a hamstring very easily regardless of how much stretching/training you've done.
4) Warren's salary was only 3.1 million. That's on the low end for starting DEs in the league.

What's a more plausible is that the Pats asked Warren to get the surgery immediately after the 2009 season and he balked, opting for rehab first. Then, when training camp rolled around, Warren couldn't pass the physical and that's when he opted for the surgery, ending his 2010 season. Whereas, had he had the surgery immediately after the 2009 season, he'd have been pupped and could have come back mid-season.

 

[Don Kipines]

I think this defense is going to be varied and unpredictable, but the guess here is that BB is going to shift things around to take advantage of Haynesworth and we'll be in a nickel D most of the time.

It could be a traditional 3-4 on first down, with Brace at left end, then VW and Haynesworth at the other spots. But on second and third down you could have a variety of formations, and the only constants would be Wilfork and Haynesworth on the line, Mayo on the second level, and McCourty-Bodden-Chung-Meriweather along the back.

If they had one more player, a legit strong-side end with some size, they could build a fierce three-down defense around the Wilfork/Haynesworth tandem inside, with Mayo behind them. It'd be schematically similar to the old Ravens defense with Adams and Siragusa up front, with Ray-Ray playing the MLB.

 

[condon84]

Even if we are switching to 4-3, it doesn't make sense to cut Warren since he could have been solid playing tackle. Having a rotation of Vince, Albert, and Ty as tackles on a 4-3 would have been ideal.

Something tells me the fact that Ty was out of shape going into camp pissed BB off more than anything.