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This is what happens when you have too much time on your hands

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MagicMarker

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
There's a couple of reasons I think they might be trading Jimmy G.

Cleveland is still after him. They haven't moved on, like you'd expect if they were going to draft someone. If the Patriots told them they were definitely not trading him, they would have moved on.

No, it appears they have thrown out a high price.

That feels like a negotiation.
 

Ochmed Jones

Pro Bowl Player
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
I still think jimmy stays for the 2017 season.

I do not see Cleveland knocking bb's socks off with a huge offer.
 

deroc5050

In the Starting Line-Up
Jimmy stays. If I had to put money on it, Jimmy G isn't going anywhere. Does it make sense? Maybe.
 

Batman

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
I want Fitz no where near the Pats. Not because I think he is bad but anytime he goes somewhere as a back up something happens to the starter and he gets the job and does pretty well normally. I don't want that to happen here I want Brady to keep playing and not be hexed.
 

DarrylS

PatsFans.com Supporter
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2019 Weekly Picks Winner
If the Browns propose a trade such as framed by PFKen.. difficult to pass up. Particularly as this draft is deep and that would make economic sense for this team..

Backup plans, would take a good hard look at Brissett, the Pats pretty know what they have by now.. they want an intelligent, quick thinking, accurate QB who can manage and manage the game..

Do not see Fitzpatrick as filling that role, Kaepernick maybe.. but the recent musing of the POTUS about how he could ruin any team that signs Kaepernick would be interesting, as Kraft appears to be friendly with him..

So by default Fitzpatrick might be the guy.. not because there is any faith in him, but because he is the last guy standing..
 

goheels22002

PatsFans.com Supporter
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As the Garapolo story heats up as the League meetings are scheduled to start, I was musing about the MAIN reason why the Pats would want to keep him. Clearly the Pats are gearing up for a another very serious run at another championship. It's a run that would continue if anything happened to Brady IF we had JG still on the roster. We can all agree on that.

But what if we DO trade Jimmy for the boatload of picks they would need would need to make it happen. The deal that that I would consider enough would be for the #12 pick, the 52nd pick (Cleveland's 2nd pick in round 2) and #176 in the fifth) PLUS a conditional pick in 2018 that would range from Cleveland's 4th round pick guaranteed, to 1st rounder. (ie 3rd rounder if JG plays 75% of the snaps and signs a LT deal with the Browns. 2nd rounder if JG plays 75% of the snaps, signs LT, and the Browns win 4 games. 1st round if JG plays 75% of the snaps, signs LT and the Browns win 8 games.) That would still leave the Browns with at least one of their picks at the top of every round, with the most likely result in the 2nd rounder next year. It is literally 4 good picks for a player you hope never sees the field in 2017.

OK well done, BB, but what do we do about our back up. It would seem to be a stretch to think Brissett in his 2nd year would be able to make a strong run, but I could be wrong. But just in case this would be the back up plan. (although a very contraversial one). I would bring in former Harvard grade, Ryan Fitzpatrick to compete with Brissett for the back up job.

Now before you go nuts, let me state my case. Fitzpatrick is a perfect back up. If we were honest, we have seen enough of him to know he's a competent if inconsistent starter in the league. But what are we looking for if Brady goes down for a few games. Someone who can go .500 in his absence. Fitzpatrick can do that, even at his inconsistent worst. But I'd say he could be better than that because of the offensive system he'd be coming to, the talent around him, and the quality defense.

We could easily afford t0 guarantee him $1MM on a 3-4MM contract, and that should get him in to compete to make the team. We've all seen him make a lot of great throws against us over the years with some pretty bad teams. Of the veterans still out there only Cutler comes close to his talent level and I think Fitzpatrick would be the better fit in the locker room and would be cheaper.

OK - you might not like the idea, but at least its something to talk about that doesn't involve Malcolm Butler or RFA rules,. ;)

Fitzpicksix? Really? I don't give a crap where he went to college. The Patriots don't have Columbia or Dartmouth on their schedule this year.

Fitzpatrick has 133 INTs in his career to go along with his 166 TDs. He's 34, been sacked 224 times and had a QBR of 45 in 2016.
Fitzpatrick resides in Jay Cutler country - 208 TDs, 146 INTs, 33 years old, 302 sacks, and QBR of 33.

Ryan Fitzpatrick Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

I'd bring in Christian Ponder, RGIII, or Blaine Gabbert for a look.
 

Simpelton

In the Starting Line-Up
Backup plans, would take a good hard look at Brissett, the Pats pretty know what they have by now.. they want an intelligent, quick thinking, accurate QB who can manage and manage the game.

Well Brissett has only 2 of those attributes. He's intelligent, and his game management skills looked good in his brief appearance. He needs to catch up to the speed of the NFL game and either improve his accuracy or get better timing with his receivers, I can't tell which, could be either with as green as JB was and as unused as his receivers were to his style of play.

With a full season of practice to digest the playbook I'd expect him to improve on the timing/accuracy problem and make decisions a little faster, but the speed issue may wind up having to be something that BB redesigns his plays around if that's our guy going forward. Asking a player to make quicker decisions than he's capable of strikes me as a good way to encourage BAD decision making. I'd rather ask him to use his feet to extend a play, a la Rodgers
 

zydecochris

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Honest question about the first paragraph in the OP and above. Do people think that the Pats can win a championship without Brady in 2017? I am highly dubious on that notion.
I mean Jimmy G looked really good in limited action, but making the leap to him being interchangeable with Brady for 2017 seems a bit much.
I am sure BB has a much better handle on the situation than myself or any other fan could.
The reason I am okay with trading Jimmy for the haul you described is precisely because I don't think he is winning a SB for the Pats next year as a starter.
I hope I am wrong and the Pats win the SB the year after Brady retires with Jimmy leading the way; I just don't know if that is going to happen.

I definitely do NOT think that Jimmy G is interchangeable with the greatest quarterback of all time. One would have to assume that the probability of another ring for the Pats would decrease without Brady this coming year. My point is that without Jimmy G I think that probability decreases to near zero (I like Brissett and his sky-high intangibles very much, but he just isn't experienced enough), and that is to be avoided.

I'm making things up as I go along, but here goes: after free agency it looks like the betting odds put the Patriots at 4 to 1 (25%) to win the next Super Bowl. If Brady went down to injury, IMHO those odds go down by a (very) arguable amount, but not to zero. Just for laughs, let's suppose the odds go down from 25% to 10% or so. That is still very good. Even if Brady to Jimmy G. decreased the odds to 5%, that would still be better than that of 2/3 of the teams, and 5% is much better than zero.

I guess my point is that we need to avoid the situation Oakland was in last year when Carr went down. Before his injury, the Raiders had a pretty decent chance to make the Super Bowl and maybe even win it. After his injury, I would argue those odds essentially became zero because of the lack of a back-up. With the Patriots so stacked this year, I just don't expect BB to risk that scenario by dealing Jimmy G.

...Of course, with my record of predicting what BB will do, that probably guarentees the trade will be announced this weekend. ;)
 
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zydecochris

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Well Brissett has only 2 of those attributes. He's intelligent, and his game management skills looked good in his brief appearance. He needs to catch up to the speed of the NFL game and either improve his accuracy or get better timing with his receivers, I can't tell which, could be either with as green as JB was and as unused as his receivers were to his style of play.

With a full season of practice to digest the playbook I'd expect him to improve on the timing/accuracy problem and make decisions a little faster, but the speed issue may wind up having to be something that BB redesigns his plays around if that's our guy going forward. Asking a player to make quicker decisions than he's capable of strikes me as a good way to encourage BAD decision making. I'd rather ask him to use his feet to extend a play, a la Rodgers

Watching a few of his college games, he looked talented, very strong and tough, but his decision making was occasionally inconsistent and lacked polish. I don't know if that lack of polish was lack of experience (he only started two years) or coaching. He certainly has good coaching now, and by all reports his intangibles are sky high, so I think he has promise. However, I would be surprised if he would be a successful starter for at least another year or two.
 

heavyde050

In the Starting Line-Up
I definitely do NOT think that Jimmy G is interchangeable with the greatest quarterback of all time. One would have to assume that the probability of another ring for the Pats would decrease without Brady this coming year. My point is that without Jimmy G I think that probability decreases to near zero (I like Brissett and his sky-high intangibles very much, but he just isn't experienced enough), and that is to be avoided.

I'm making things up as I go along, but here goes: after free agency it looks like the betting odds put the Patriots at 4 to 1 (25%) to win the next Super Bowl. If Brady went down to injury, IMHO those odds go down by a (very) arguable amount, but not to zero. Just for laughs, let's suppose the odds go down from 25% to 10% or so. That is still very good. Even if Brady to Jimmy G. decreased the odds to 5%, that would still be better than that of 2/3 of the teams, and 5% is much better than zero.

I guess my point is that we need to avoid the situation Oakland was in last year when Carr went down. Before his injury, the Raiders had a pretty decent chance to make the Super Bowl and maybe even win it. After his injury, I would argue those odds essentially became zero because of the lack of a back-up. With the Patriots so stacked this year, I just don't expect BB to risk that scenario by dealing Jimmy G.

...Of course, with my record of predicting what BB will do, that probably guarentees the trade will be announced this weekend. ;)
Thanks for the clarification. The comparison to the Oakland situation makes a lot of sense.
They weren't going to win with Carr, but definitely wouldn't have been bounced in the playoffs like they where if they had Carr or a healthier experienced backup.
 

fnordcircle

The poster who James White said inspires him.
PatsFans.com Supporter
Always on board for a former Jet to come here and win a ring because I think it really helps build bridges between fanbases.

I know I'm always up for talking to Jets' fans about Revis, for instance. I get to say things like "Revis was awesome and I think it was great how our two teams worked together to get him a ring. The Jets paid him all that money and the Patriots won a SB with him on the roster, it's win-win!"
 

Simpelton

In the Starting Line-Up
Watching a few of his college games, he looked talented, very strong and tough, but his decision making was occasionally inconsistent and lacked polish. I don't know if that lack of polish was lack of experience (he only started two years) or coaching. He certainly has good coaching now, and by all reports his intangibles are sky high, so I think he has promise. However, I would be surprised if he would be a successful starter for at least another year or two.
I'm not too worried about Brissett's slow decisionmaking... remember, we're used to the best g uy in the history of football, every quarterback is going to look slow-thinking and inconsistent compared to Brady's mind.

Bear in mind though that Brady has always needed to be that quick and decisive because if there's one thing he's not all that good at it's maneuvering in the pocket. He has to be smart in the pocket because he's never been all that elusive, so he always has a time window on how long he can extend the play. He countered that with elite quick-draw skills, that's not the only way to counter that issue.

Brissett is slower thinking than Brady (who isn't?) but he's quicker on his feet so he has some options before he throws that Brady generally does not have -- a better ability to roll out of the pocket, a better ability to tuck and run if he needs to, that kind of thing. They have to respect Brissett's ability to call his own number or scramble if flushed and that gives Brissett a weapon against the blitz that Brady had to develop elite decisionmaking exactly because he doesn't have that weapon. So Brissett has a decent chance to get to where he needs to be even if he goes there a different way than Brady did. Instead of needing elite decision speed, Brissett could, in theory, simply get better at extending the play with his legs

Brady had to hone the throw game to a fine edge because it was his only weapon. It's still his only weapon, but he's so all-world good at it that it's the only weapon he really needs. Brissett will do it differently and should be able to buy time to make the kind of plays he needs to make as long as the plays are well designed and the o-line does its job. The accuracy of his arm is the only issue that really worries me longterm about Brissett... if he can get that under control, the rest should fall into place with hard work and experience.
 

heavyde050

In the Starting Line-Up
I'm not too worried about Brissett's slow decisionmaking... remember, we're used to the best g uy in the history of football, every quarterback is going to look slow-thinking and inconsistent compared to Brady's mind.

Bear in mind though that Brady has always needed to be that quick and decisive because if there's one thing he's not all that good at it's maneuvering in the pocket. He has to be smart in the pocket because he's never been all that elusive, so he always has a time window on how long he can extend the play. He countered that with elite quick-draw skills, that's not the only way to counter that issue.

Brissett is slower thinking than Brady (who isn't?) but he's quicker on his feet so he has some options before he throws that Brady generally does not have -- a better ability to roll out of the pocket, a better ability to tuck and run if he needs to, that kind of thing. They have to respect Brissett's ability to call his own number or scramble if flushed and that gives Brissett a weapon against the blitz that Brady had to develop elite decisionmaking exactly because he doesn't have that weapon. So Brissett has a decent chance to get to where he needs to be even if he goes there a different way than Brady did. Instead of needing elite decision speed, Brissett could, in theory, simply get better at extending the play with his legs

Brady had to hone the throw game to a fine edge because it was his only weapon. It's still his only weapon, but he's so all-world good at it that it's the only weapon he really needs. Brissett will do it differently and should be able to buy time to make the kind of plays he needs to make as long as the plays are well designed and the o-line does its job. The accuracy of his arm is the only issue that really worries me longterm about Brissett... if he can get that under control, the rest should fall into place with hard work and experience.
I know Brady isn't the fastest, but I thought he has always had unreal pocket awareness to make up for the lack of speed.
I had always thought he moved very well in the pocket, but wasn't really a scrambler.
 
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Simpelton

In the Starting Line-Up
True, like I said, he's smart in the pocket, but his scambling talent is limited and it's not really what he's best at, it's well known that if you make Brady move you're taking away the part of the game he's best at so to be the GOAT, he had to learn how to get rid of the ball quickly, not give the defensive line time to put him in a bad situation. Brissett doesn't have as big a weakness in this area so he doesn't need to compensate by getting rid of the ball legendarily quickly, he'll come up with his own coping strategies for his own suite of weaknesses.
 

bbobbo

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
i've posted this a couple times before.

on every team that fitzpatrick has ever joined as a backup, the starter has suffered an injury which led to him becoming the starter:

Rams - replaced Jamie Martin (concussion)
Bengals - replaced Carson Palmer twice (torn ligament and tendon in elbow)
Bills - replaced Trent Edwards (concussion)
Titans - replaced Jake Locker twice (hip, lisfranc)
Texans - replaced Ryan Mallett (torn pectoral)
Jets - replaced Geno Smith (broken jaw)

i don't want to see if the patriots can break that unlucky streak.
.
 

zydecochris

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
I'm not too worried about Brissett's slow decisionmaking... remember, we're used to the best g uy in the history of football, every quarterback is going to look slow-thinking and inconsistent compared to Brady's mind.

Bear in mind though that Brady has always needed to be that quick and decisive because if there's one thing he's not all that good at it's maneuvering in the pocket. He has to be smart in the pocket because he's never been all that elusive, so he always has a time window on how long he can extend the play. He countered that with elite quick-draw skills, that's not the only way to counter that issue.

Brissett is slower thinking than Brady (who isn't?) but he's quicker on his feet so he has some options before he throws that Brady generally does not have -- a better ability to roll out of the pocket, a better ability to tuck and run if he needs to, that kind of thing. They have to respect Brissett's ability to call his own number or scramble if flushed and that gives Brissett a weapon against the blitz that Brady had to develop elite decisionmaking exactly because he doesn't have that weapon. So Brissett has a decent chance to get to where he needs to be even if he goes there a different way than Brady did. Instead of needing elite decision speed, Brissett could, in theory, simply get better at extending the play with his legs

Brady had to hone the throw game to a fine edge because it was his only weapon. It's still his only weapon, but he's so all-world good at it that it's the only weapon he really needs. Brissett will do it differently and should be able to buy time to make the kind of plays he needs to make as long as the plays are well designed and the o-line does its job. The accuracy of his arm is the only issue that really worries me longterm about Brissett... if he can get that under control, the rest should fall into place with hard work and experience.

Nice post. Good points.

As you say, there will probably never be another QB with the decision making of TB, so anyone would suffer in comparison. You know, I agree, I'm not really that worried about Brissett's decision making in the long term either, I worded that badly. The word I wanted to use about his college career was "lack of polish", but I was having trouble defining the term. I guess by that I mean "readiness to contribute on a NFL level" or "readiness to reach one's potential". Having professional maturity and good intangibles is part of it. I guess it is something hard to define (maybe Ken can give a try) "but I know it when I see it". ;)

My idea of a polished player is someone like Hightower, from a top program with excellent coaching, has played well in the biggest games (National Championships), professionally mature. Andrew Luck was polished coming out of college, great intangibles, great QB coaching at Stanford, lots of experience in big games, and Luck contributed right away for the first three years (before Grigson and the Indy front office ruined the Colts). Everyone likes to make fun of the skinny pictures of Brady at the Combine, but he was actually a very polished player, sky high intangibles, he had played on big stages and mounted big comebacks, had good coaching (apart from his coach's inability to judge QB talent). By the second year he was not only contributing, but winning a Super Bowl.

IMHO, Brissett (and Jimmy G. for that matter) weren't very polished coming out of college, and I think it is asking a lot for Brissett to win a Super Bowl with this very talented team this year if Brady is injured and Jimmy G. traded. Perhaps part of it was that Brissett played on a lousy team in college with a terrible OL and he was always having to try to do too much. However, that is not a slam at Brissett, as far as I can tell there have only been two 24 year old second year QB's who have won Superbowls, and one starts for the Pats (the other is Big Ben). And, to his credit, I was very impressed by how much better and more polished Brissett was for the Pats. I have high hopes for Brissett, I just don't think he is ready to join Brady and Big Ben as the next 24 year old second year QB to win a Super Bowl.
 

Plunkett2Vataha

Practice Squad Player
I know Brady isn't the fastest, but I thought he has always had unreal pocket awareness to make up for the lack of speed.
I had always thought he moved very well in the pocket, but wasn't really a scrambler.
Really good viewpoint on the pocket awareness making up for Brady's lack of speed. The only other QB I've seen who had the uncanny ability to move around the pocket with such skill to make up for lack of speed was Dan Marino.
 

Simpelton

In the Starting Line-Up
Nice post. Good points.

As you say, there will probably never be another QB with the decision making of TB, so anyone would suffer in comparison. You know, I agree, I'm not really that worried about Brissett's decision making in the long term either, I worded that badly. The word I wanted to use about his college career was "lack of polish", but I was having trouble defining the term. I guess by that I mean "readiness to contribute on a NFL level" or "readiness to reach one's potential". Having professional maturity and good intangibles is part of it. I guess it is something hard to define (maybe Ken can give a try) "but I know it when I see it". ;)

My idea of a polished player is someone like Hightower, from a top program with excellent coaching, has played well in the biggest games (National Championships), professionally mature. Andrew Luck was polished coming out of college, great intangibles, great QB coaching at Stanford, lots of experience in big games, and Luck contributed right away for the first three years (before Grigson and the Indy front office ruined the Colts). Everyone likes to make fun of the skinny pictures of Brady at the Combine, but he was actually a very polished player, sky high intangibles, he had played on big stages and mounted big comebacks, had good coaching (apart from his coach's inability to judge QB talent). By the second year he was not only contributing, but winning a Super Bowl.

IMHO, Brissett (and Jimmy G. for that matter) weren't very polished coming out of college, and I think it is asking a lot for Brissett to win a Super Bowl with this very talented team this year if Brady is injured and Jimmy G. traded. Perhaps part of it was that Brissett played on a lousy team in college with a terrible OL and he was always having to try to do too much. However, that is not a slam at Brissett, as far as I can tell there have only been two 24 year old second year QB's who have won Superbowls, and one starts for the Pats (the other is Big Ben). And, to his credit, I was very impressed by how much better and more polished Brissett was for the Pats. I have high hopes for Brissett, I just don't think he is ready to join Brady and Big Ben as the next 24 year old second year QB to win a Super Bowl.
I think with hopefully a year of practice to familiarize himself with his receivers and with the playbook and get people used to the way he plays football, Brissett could be a very pleasant surprise, if the Patriots could feel comfortable taking risks with the quarterback role he's one of the better guys not named Garoppolo to take a risk on. Mostly in the hopes he could grow into the role, but he seems like a mature and intelligent player so that's hardly a forlorn hope.
 

DarrylS

PatsFans.com Supporter
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2019 Weekly Picks Winner
I would be very surprised if they offer JG a "quarterback contract" or franchise him, does not seem to fit the economics of this team.. they probably have a much better idea on Brissett as he was allowed to continue to practice with the team instead of him going on IR last year..

IMO Brissett will be #2 on Sept. 7..
 

TommyD4207

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
GP CMP ATT CMP% YDS AVG TD LNG INT FUM QBR RAT
14 228 403 56.6 2,710 6.73 12 57 17 6 44.0 69.6
12 196 331 59.2 2,241 6.77 16 65 4 7 55.5 90.7

Test, one of the QB's is Fitzy. Who is the other?

The other one is Kaepernick, I believe.
 
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