There is NO reason to not spend cap space

[PatsFan2]

So then no one cares what players you want. Was there a point?

We have signed 90% of the free agents we pursued the last 2 years. It’s moronic to say no one wants to play here.

What does Deshaun Watson have to do with anything?
I want to use all of the resources we have to put the best team on the field.
I have never, ever advocated spending money just to spend it, I want it spent to make the team better.
Last year we sat and watched a team built that was signing players off practice squads and starting them. During that off season when we left about 40 million in the table there were dozens of players better than what we had that would have made the team better. Deshaun Watson wasn’t one of them. Some were signed for the vet minimum, others 3,5,7 mill a year, whatever was.

It seems that YOU in fact are the one that thinks the only way to build a football team is throwing top dollars at players, and if you can’t find them you just accept that you suck and keep pushing out the sucking for more years.

A winning football team has players at every pay group, and often wins because the lower paid guys return much more value than their cost.
A losing team leaves money in the bank and starts Demontrey Jacobs at RT, because they didn’t go and get a player during free agency.
If Robert krafts bank account is your priority, you are the only fan I have ever met who cares more about the owners finances than the product on the field.

She's not the only one A.J. they're many of them: it's sickening. They are trying to save deep pockets people money who have $$$$$$ to burn.

 

[JayNM]

2 things to talk about now*:

1st - Spending for sake of spending
The NFL has 32 places of employment, these enterprises SUPPOSEDLY compete against each other, not only on the field, but on the VERY restrict employee market of Football player. even more restrict when we are talking about ~Elite Footballl players (and in this context is anyone above average in the league)

Based on the information on this forum alone, we have between 50M (by being super dumb) to 80M (by being super lax) in cap space.

To me. is very clear best use of this is to get players who can help now and/or be part of the foundation for the next 3 to 4 years, when Maye's contract is in discussion.

But here is the thing... The ~Elite players DONT COME to the market often, because it would be an VERY obvious competitve disadvantage when YOU KNOW another 31 competitors WILL hire him.

So, EVERY PLAYER that lasts on the Free agent market HAS a flag. All of them. What should a team with low quality but high cap do? Get as many "yellow" flag guys, to CONTROL the change of colour. Like, pardon the metaphor, but that's how I see it.

We are NEVER "wasting" money. We are separating bad player who won't meet those two conditions above, and by doing A GOOD JOB one way or another, finding yellow flagged player who are more green than red.

IF we had a competitive team, this would be a complete different story. We arent. We literally were trolled from the 1st pick by our divisional rivals. ALL ~ELITE PLAYERS IMPROVE OUR ROSTER.

By continuing "looking for deals", we are harming the Patriots first, and benefitting the league, the other 31 teams.
-----------------------


2nd - The Rollover Cap


The Cap rollover is NOT something you archictect towards. The way I understood when I read about it is that while yes, a small percentage of Cap unused in one year goes over to next one.

However it doesnt stack, and the the "superavit" of cap only lasts for one year. Meaning, you CANT use it to build the team. It is there to help teams in one, maybe two years, but if you use it badly, it can **** you up long term.

We have been "moving" this leftover cap for 2 years at least. It is no longer a possible crutch, it is just wasted cap space at this point, until the year where we use it, or lose it due to bad cap space management where we just go over the "minimum" for this to rollover, and, get this, this bad management it is already happening with not using cap space!

----

*Opinion based-post, get mad at your own peril

I will say again: Due to our PRESENT context, NOT using cap space is spitting in every Patriots fan

 

[Ring 6]

She's not the only one A.J. they're many of them: it's sickening. They are trying to save deep pockets people money who have $$$$$$ to burn.

It’s something I’ve never seen before. We put a terrible team on the field and the overriding sentiment is don’t blame the front office, you can’t expect them to do well. I’ve never seen a fan base act like that. I wish I understood why.

It feels like they are defensive of management because they are fans of ownership rather than the product on the field.

 

[PatsFan2]

It’s something I’ve never seen before. We put a terrible team on the field and the overriding sentiment is don’t blame the front office, you can’t expect them to do well. I’ve never seen a fan base act like that. I wish I understood why.

It feels like they are defensive of management because they are fans of ownership rather than the product on the field.

A.J. I remember last year you called out Management after they left so much $$$$$$$ on the Table in FA24. The Kraft accountants didn't see the abysmal season coming; you get what you pay for a Roster Filled with borderline NFL Players.

 

[PowerRunRevival]

They are in the bottom third of cap space the next 2 years already. Would you rather they max out their cap space in 2024 on middling talent and shove themselves into the basement the next few years with no money to make any significant moves, or would you rather have them leave a bit this year to roll into next year and keep themselves in position to try to get higher end targets/contributors annually? Plus of course the upcoming extensions to Gonzo and Maye.

Teams can always create additional cap space by converting salary to a bonus, other teams do it every single year. Do the Pats have financial constraints that other teams in the league don't have?

With the cap rising every single year, teams projected to have no cap space often end up having it and the advantage of teams who amass cap space is diminished.

In all facets, money (or cap space) now will always be worth more than the same amount in the future. As a percentage of the cap $5 MM in 2025 is more valuable than $5 MM in 2026, thus they are losing value in rolling over money.

I'd rather have them spend as much as possible this year and add players. If the players are older but still good they could garner draft pick compensation that speeds up the rebuild. To be fair to ownership though, there is still time to use the cap space on players that have yet to become avaialb.e

 

[JayNM]

Teams can always create additional cap space by converting salary to a bonus, other teams do it every single year. Do the Pats have financial constraints that other teams in the league don't have?

With the cap rising every single year, teams projected to have no cap space often end up having it and the advantage of teams who amass cap space is diminished.

In all facets, money (or cap space) now will always be worth more than the same amount in the future. As a percentage of the cap $5 MM in 2025 is more valuable than $5 MM in 2026, thus they are losing value in rolling over money.

I'd rather have them spend as much as possible this year and add players. If the players are older but still good they could garner draft pick compensation that speeds up the rebuild. To be fair to ownership though, there is still time to use the cap space on players that have yet to become avaialb.e

There so many financial "outs" for large contracts it isn't funny

Thinking we are harming the team long term by signing bad players for 1 or 2 (Heck even 3 or 4 in some cases) years is outdated for 10 years ago.

The only scenario where this is not true is if the Salary cap, for any reason, starts suddenly decreasing

 

[JayNM]

I will add one more thing too. I thought it was interesting and I promise to be as neutral as possible, because it really isnt a critic, but a trend

Except for Milton Williams who was perhaps the best player available in FA

ALL players have had connections to our coaches IIRC. Yes we spent on defense, and i personally am glad to have done it and think our team improved greatly on that side.

But it shows that we, due to staff misnamagement DIRECTLY linked to Kraft's decision to have Mayo and then fire him after one season (WHICH I DEFENDED TILL THE VERY LAST MOMENT) has put us behind in opponenet player's analysis. This might explain, a lot, of our behaviour this Free Agency

exactly like I said it would happen.

 

[Rob0729]

I am not going to argue that the Pats couldn't have spent more, but to spend just to spend is stupid. Unfortunately, it is getting harder and harder to build through free agency because the best free agents rarely hit the market (see the Pats top targets in Ronnie Stanley and Chris Godwin). Signing free agents just because you have plenty of money and cap space can be worse than not signing anyone.

Fact is the Pats are going to have build mostly through the draft. Free agency can fill holes and give you some impact players, but the best teams build through the draft.

Don't forget that every year there are teams that get A+ grades for free agency in spring and it becomes a D or an F after you see these free agent acquisitions play and watch them underperform. Building through free agency can be an expensive losing proposition. Look at the Patriots 2021 free agent acquisitions, they hit a homerun with Judon and did well Henry, but most of the other pick ups were busts.

Sure the Pats should have been more aggressive, but I think they could have built a top 5-10 defense this month. They really struck out at the top two needs, but there also wasn't really anything available either.

The Pats still could make an impact with a trade or two. The 49ers need to trade Aiyuk in the next week or so if they are going to trade him and they may get desperate if they are deadset against giving him his guarantee.

 

[DaBruinz]

The money rolls over, but with the cap increasing every year means that cap space now is more valuable than the same amount of cap space next year.

The amount a team pays above the value they initially assigned to a player isn't a waste, it's the difference between signing a player that improves your team or not doing so. We have seen first hand how hard it is to spend all the cap space on players with good value contracts.

To me carrying over cap space that the team isn't likely to be able to spend is more wasteful than going above an assigned player value to make sure the player ends on your team. The Milton Williams and Harold Landry deals are almost certainly above the players assigned value in the league, but I'd rather have the player than not have the player.

No need to be conservative with billionaire money!

You can't MAKE a player sign in New England. Look at Ronnie Stanley and Chris Godwin. BOTH left money on the table to stay with their respective teams. In both cases, it was substantial money.

The Pats overpaid for Williams by $5M/yr to get him to sign with them.

I don't feel the Landry deal was an over-pay since it's not even a top-20 deal.

With contracts for Maye, Gonzalez, and White going to be needed in the next 2 years, having that money is going to be needed.

 

[JayNM]

You can't MAKE a player sign in New England. Look at Ronnie Stanley and Chris Godwin. BOTH left money on the table to stay with their respective teams. In both cases, it was substantial money.

The Pats overpaid for Williams by $5M/yr to get him to sign with them.

I don't feel the Landry deal was an over-pay since it's not even a top-20 deal.

With contracts for Maye, Gonzalez, and White going to be needed in the next 2 years, having that money is going to be needed.

Lets not make chickens out of eggs, ok?

You are right to prioritize in house talent

But Keyon White is far from deserving anyhting remotely close to a "worrying" contract

Gonzales is what 3 years from now? Maye, hopefully the true big one, is in 4.

Pleeeenty of time to manage all of this, especially because they dont coincide

Williams being an overpay is also not that big of a deal. That was an honest bidding war

 

[raduray]

It begins

My revolt against Kraft is brewing

This thread is simple, with thousands of others about cap sapce. Let it reverb around the globe within the forum, grow roots and became omniscient.


it benefits NO ONE. BUT KRAFT. To have CONTINUOSLY large amount of unused cap space in Professional Football


Not financially for the team

Not for short term production

Not for long term sustainance

Not for creating marketing

Not for fans of the team

Not for Maye to improve

ONLY. KRAFT. IS. GAINING.

Get your **** together you old pervert or any and all of your fans will burn

This post is based on a popular, but incorrect premise, that Kraft is cheap and not willing to spend. But the facts speak otherwise. From a recent Bedard article:

 

[BTTA]

REPORT - BREAKING NEWS
From several sources in Foxborough: As of 6PM on March 20th, management of the New England Patriots has been paralyzed by the implications and threats coming from a post on Pats.com, a website forum for New England Patriots fans. While fans threatening to remove their support and undermine the enterprise has happened many times in the past, inside sources anonymously are sharing that management believes that "apparently, this time they really mean it."

 

[Ring 6]

I am not going to argue that the Pats couldn't have spent more, but to spend just to spend is stupid. Unfortunately, it is getting harder and harder to build through free agency because the best free agents rarely hit the market (see the Pats top targets in Ronnie Stanley and Chris Godwin). Signing free agents just because you have plenty of money and cap space can be worse than not signing anyone.

Fact is the Pats are going to have build mostly through the draft. Free agency can fill holes and give you some impact players, but the best teams build through the draft.

Don't forget that every year there are teams that get A+ grades for free agency in spring and it becomes a D or an F after you see these free agent acquisitions play and watch them underperform. Building through free agency can be an expensive losing proposition. Look at the Patriots 2021 free agent acquisitions, they hit a homerun with Judon and did well Henry, but most of the other pick ups were busts.

Sure the Pats should have been more aggressive, but I think they could have built a top 5-10 defense this month. They really struck out at the top two needs, but there also wasn't really anything available either.

The Pats still could make an impact with a trade or two. The 49ers need to trade Aiyuk in the next week or so if they are going to trade him and they may get desperate if they are deadset against giving him his guarantee.

There were dozens of players last year available in free agency that were better than players that made our roster. Our roster was so bad we were picking up practice squad guys and making them starters.
Free agency, especially for a 4 win team with major weaknesses and no depth isn’t just about the top end guys.

The Super Bowl champion eagles have just 5 players on their roster at cap hits over 10 mill.
Only 9 over 6 mill
Only 14 over 4 mil

39 of 53 have cap hits of less than $4 million.

You don’t win SBs because of 5 guys you pay more than 10 million, you win SB because of 44 guys you pay less that 6 million


There were dozens of free agents that cost less than 6 million, many less than 4, that could have made this a better team and we chose to not improve the roster.

This year is looking different.
We upgraded starters at
RT
C
DT
EDGE
LB (possibly 2)
CB
S3

But we also resigned Hooper to address TE depth
We signed Schweitzer as veteran OL depth
We added Chaisson for edge depth
We signed Gibbens as a quasi starter and depth at LB
We got Tonga for DT depth
Hollins for WR depth
Epps is listed as S3 above but he is an addition at a position where we list no one.

Arguably with the possibly exception of Gibson, these depth guys are all better than any FA we signed last year.

If we have 65 million left under the cap and set aside 25 for draft picks, ps, 52 and 53, etc we have 40 to spend.

A WR is going to cost us 15 if we sign Diggs or make a trade.

The remaining 25 and the draft can go to filling the major hole at LT in the draft and adding depth at

Rb
Fb (?)
WR
IOL
DT
DE
CB
EDGE

If that is dine, this team has been transformed. With Diggs and LT plus those depth additions, where is the weakness that says we lack talent and can’t compete? I don’t see it.


We have a generationally weak schedule this year. We can’t leave money on the table and not fix what’s left to fix.

 

[maust]

Gonzales is what 3 years from now? Maye, hopefully the true big one, is in 4.

Pleeeenty of time to manage all of this, especially because they dont coincide

Gonzalez is eligible for an extension after this year. If recent history has shown anything, the cost of extensions with 1st round picks goes up substantially when they don't get done between years 3 and 4. That same prudent logic puts Maye's extension 2 years away, not 4

 

[Ross12]

Teams can always create additional cap space by converting salary to a bonus, other teams do it every single year. Do the Pats have financial constraints that other teams in the league don't have?

With the cap rising every single year, teams projected to have no cap space often end up having it and the advantage of teams who amass cap space is diminished.

In all facets, money (or cap space) now will always be worth more than the same amount in the future. As a percentage of the cap $5 MM in 2025 is more valuable than $5 MM in 2026, thus they are losing value in rolling over money.

I'd rather have them spend as much as possible this year and add players. If the players are older but still good they could garner draft pick compensation that speeds up the rebuild. To be fair to ownership though, there is still time to use the cap space on players that have yet to become avaialb.e

They absolutely can do that, but doing so is essentially borrowing future cap space to make room today.

So essentially the argument is - they should spend just to spend, get any player worth a damn in the door, max out the cap space. When they have no cap space left in 2026 and 2027, they should borrow cap space from future years to make space and kick the can down the road.

Is this a team that we think should be putting themselves in that position right now? I'd rather be a bit more responsible and leave some amount of flexibility, and worry about "kicking the can down the road" once they are actually established contenders.

 

[BTTA]

This post is based on a popular, but incorrect premise, that Kraft is cheap and not willing to spend. But the facts speak otherwise. From a recent Bedard article:

On a more analytical note, as we rapidly move into an AI dominated world, pro sports may be one of the last businesses to have personnel costs that escalate in some direct proportion to revenue. Interesting.

 

[Ring 6]

This post is based on a popular, but incorrect premise, that Kraft is cheap and not willing to spend. But the facts speak otherwise. From a recent Bedard article:

That doesn’t short Kraft isn’t cheap. You don’t understand those numbers and even if you did, they are meaningless without comparison to other teams.
Yes Kraft spends what looks like a lot of money on players. But compare to the other 31 teams, depending upon the timeframe studied he is either near the bottom or dead last.

 

[Ross12]

That doesn’t short Kraft isn’t cheap. You don’t understand those numbers and even if you did, they are meaningless without comparison to other teams.
Yes Kraft spends what looks like a lot of money on players. But compare to the other 31 teams, depending upon the timeframe studied he is either near the bottom or dead last.

Do you have any evidence that Kraft spent substantially less than other teams in this same timeframe?

 

[BTTA]

The Super Bowl champion eagles have just 5 players on their roster at cap hits over 10 mill.
Only 9 over 6 mill
Only 14 over 4 mil

39 of 53 have cap hits of less than $4 million.

You don’t win SBs because of 5 guys you pay more than 10 million, you win SB because of 44 guys you pay less that 6 million

Yes, one year, one team, did what you note. Not good analytics to take a single example in a long history, in a complex system, and draw a conclusion that broadly applies.

If you have the time, it would be great to see that extended to a decade of Super Bowls. And perhaps to conference champs. That'd give you 20 teams as data points, and worthy of an extended conversation.

 

[JayNM]

This post is based on a popular, but incorrect premise, that Kraft is cheap and not willing to spend. But the facts speak otherwise. From a recent Bedard article:

That post is not based on the premise that Kraft is cheap.

Incompetent or a baffoon. That is what I am aiming for