The Truth About Mangini

[PonyExpress]

Look I dislike the guy as well, but let's face it, he was offered a head coaching position in the NFL. Was he supposed to turn it down just because BB said so??? Was it not BB who broke away from Parcells and the same animosity exists between the two of them as well?

I'll agree with the comment that he probably wasn't ready for this job, but that's between him and the Jets ownership.

I'm willing to bet that most of us here would have jumped at the chance as well. That said, he's still a rat in my book and I see no problem with us laying 50 or more on him.

NFL tradition is that disciples don't take jobs in their mentor's division as long as the mentor is still coaching. Mangini $hi# on that too.

 

[patsox23]

he was offered a head coaching position in the NFL. Was he supposed to turn it down just because BB said so???

Let's be careful with the assumption of this premise. BB may have advised EM not to take the jet job, but when the decision was made, Belichick was wholly supportive and was effusive in his praise for Mangini.

 

[JDSal45]

Now you're the one making assumptions based on nothing more than your own perception of what was wrong with this D in 2005. Aside from losing Rodney, TJ, Tedy and getting saddled with Starks and Beisel for all or parts of the season...that is.

No, its not based on "nothing"....I actually WITNESSED the games and am perfectly comfortable with assessing the performance of the defensive coordinator vis-a-vis other coordinators I have WITNESSED in my lifetime.

As opposed to making assumptions about Bill Belichick's emotions and how he felt and what was said behind closed doors. Huge and obvious difference.

As for losing players to injury? Big deal, in 2004 Romeo Crennell lost Ty Law, Tyrone Poole, Richard Seymour for a time and many, many others. It is well-documented how he coped with injuries in both 2003 and 2004. We had guys like Dan Klecko start games vs. Denver. We had Matt Chatham start games. Please spare me the poor Eric routine. If anything, he had a developing Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork, along with Asante Samuel....who were far advanced from the rookie seasons Romeo Crennel got something out of.

J D Sal

 

[patsox23]

Now you're the one making assumptions based on nothing more than your own perception of what was wrong with this D in 2005. Aside from losing Rodney, TJ, Tedy and getting saddled with Starks and Beisel for all or parts of the season...that is.

It's pretty well documented that Mangini was was not your run of the mill young assistant promoted to coordinator, he was Bill's protogee and friend. As Michael Holley pointed out in Patriots Reign, unlike Bill's other support staff, he and Mangini could fight heatedly like father and son for an hour over defensive concepts and then stroll onto the practice field beaming like brothers. And that was when he was still just an assistant, and Romeo was the DC.

Eric's problem is, was and always will be an overabundance of ego, likely fed by the media spin of him as the golden child ball boy discovery of the master. Like most children he probably believed he was inherently smarter than the dad and easily convinced himself the dad just wasn't too keen on his proving it. So he took the job where he obviously could - and it blew up in his face because as is so often the case, father knew best. He could have gotten away with failing in another venue, and the surrogate father would have had his back as had his before him. But he wanted to prove his superiority by taking down old pops in his own back yard. And the father likely would have forgiven that in time, he had already moved past the cold stare to a bearhug once he publicly throttled the kid.

Only when as year 2 unfolded and it proved to be a lot tougher to beat the old man than young Eric's ego envisioned, he succombed to the temptation to try a little dagger in the back aimed at knocking the old man off stride. Only that too blew up in his face even worse. And now he's left facing 2008 fighting for his NFL life with no pops to bail him out 'cause the old man has now thoroughly and likely permanently disowned him.

The truth about Mangini is he struggled daily to check his ego at the door of Gillette, and at the first opportunity to bolt it convinced him to make a move just a touch of street savvy and common sense clearly dictated he pass on. Typical bright kid overly impressed with his own perceived intelligence and oblivious to his own shortsightedness, he couldn't take advantage of the wisdom BB tried to impart based on 30 years experience and a decade of mentoring and friendship.

That ego will make it even harder for him to go back to being somebody elses NFL coordinator, if he even gets a chance. I mean, this is a man who's done Sprint commercials and guested on the Sopranos... More likely he persues a college HC job where he can at least convince himself he remains intellectually superior to his peers and he will receive a seven figure salary and some head man perks albeit on a local level.

Um...yikes. HOMERUN.

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

Mangini's performance as coordinator was abysmal. Period. That we know.

And the numbers as Jets coach speak for themselves. I didn't invent them. You igorred those facts.

J D Sal

No, we don't "know" that at all. You said it. That doesn't make it so.

The "Numbers" don't speak at all. They have to be interpreted. You twisted them the way you wanted to to support your argument.

Using your "Facts", any year that a team's defense doesn't play as well, it must have been the defensive coordinator's fault. What about the 2002 Patriots? The DC's fault again?

You have to take the quality of players, injuries, team dynamics, etc into account as well. You can't just blame it all on the DC.

I'm not going to even argue the Jets since he is the HC, not the DC and I'm only saying that BB thought he was a good DC. Some DC's make horrible HC's.

You are ignoring the FACT that BB made him the DC. Obviously, he believed him to be a good DC. There is no indication he was going to fire him... in fact, we KNOW that he asked Mangini not to take the HC job with the NYJ. If Mangini is such a bad DC, why does BB want to keep him? Why? You have no answer.

Just a bunch of stats to manipulate and obsess over.

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

No, its not based on "nothing"....I actually WITNESSED the games and am perfectly comfortable with assessing the performance of the defensive coordinator vis-a-vis other coordinators I have WITNESSED in my lifetime.

Yeah. Ok NEM. Good thing you saw the games and WITNESSED how bad Mangini was as a DC. I'm sure BB was too busy to notice if his DC was any good or not.

Again, on your "injury" theories, how does play for 2002? All the DC's fault again I suppose.

Keep digging that hole.

 

[JDSal45]

No, we don't "know" that at all. You said it. That doesn't make it so.

The "Numbers" don't speak at all. They have to be interpreted. You twisted them the way you wanted to to support your argument.

Using your "Facts", any year that a team's defense doesn't play as well, it must have been the defensive coordinator's fault. What about the 2002 Patriots? The DC's fault again?

You have to take the quality of players, injuries, team dynamics, etc into account as well. You can't just blame it all on the DC.

I'm not going to even argue the Jets since he is the HC, not the DC and I'm only saying that BB thought he was a good DC. Some DC's make horrible HC's.

You are ignoring the FACT that BB made him the DC. Obviously, he believed him to be a good DC. There is no indication he was going to fire him... in fact, we KNOW that he asked Mangini not to take the HC job with the NYJ. If Mangini is such a bad DC, why does BB want to keep him? Why? You have no answer.

Just a bunch of stats to manipulate and obsess over.

His record in two years is worse than Herm Edwards. No twisting. It is what it is. You can make of it what you want, I think it speaks for itself.

Yes, BB made him a coordinator. I think that shows he has potential. As I said, he is not ready. And I did have an answer. I said it already, but once again you seem to miss points right in front of you. He felt he wasn't ready and was giving him advice. He felt the Jets job was a bad job and advised Mangini to wait, there would be other opportunities. I think this is consistent with all that has ben reported. So there, it is explained why he (at least in your mind) would "want to keep him", i.e. for his own good. No other issues remain that you raised.

J D Sal

 

[JDSal45]

Yeah. Ok NEM. Good thing you saw the games and WITNESSED how bad Mangini was a DC. I'm sure BB was too busy to notice if his DC was any good or not.

Again, on your "injury" theories, how does play for 2002? All the DC's fault again I suppose.

Keep digging that hole.

How does it play for 2002? Well, if that is all we had to go on for Romeo Crenel, I'd say not very well for him. Lets say 2001 had never happened, HIS first year as DC with the Pats. But we have more to go on. What we do know is in Mangini's first year, there was an issue. It was fixed the next year when he was gone. Its all we have to go on as far as the job he was doing as DC.

And where did I say 2005 was "all" Mangini's fault. I merely said he did a poor job, which he did. You have this odd habit of stating things as fact that either you don't know are facts or were never in fact said. Yes, I did say Mangini didn't do well. I never said it was "all" his fault and you, in somewhat summary fashion and I imagine convinced in your own mind I did because you didn't stop to really think, claimed I did. I didn't. I feel he did a poor job, but there is always more sides to an issue than one. One issue of many. Honestly, slow down a bit and think what the facts really are when you are talking about something. Don't be in such a hurry.

J D Sal

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

So there, it is explained why he (at least in your mind) would "want to keep him", i.e. for his own good. No other issues remain that you raised.

J D Sal

So, BB is going to keep a subpar DC (in your opinion) simply for Mangini's own good? No thought to how that might impact the team's chance to win?

Apparently, while BB is willing to do whatever it takes to field the best team he can (including having to cut expensive vets when they are overvalued), he is willing to put up with a less-than-great DC because... ??? He likes Mangini? He cares more about Mangini's budding career than his team's performance? Mangini has naked pictures of him? Why?

It just doesn't make any sense UNLESS he actually thought Mangini was a good DC. Too bad JDSal WITNESSED the games and has seen otherwise.

 

[spacecrime]

Well stated. I was thinking the same thing, but you said it much better.

If BB was pissed (and we're making assumptions here, we're not inside his head) it was because Mangini showed a lack of respect for his mentor advice. Not for team reasons. You make wild leaps of assumptions using phrases such as "that badly" to try to make your case. Its a common tactic but again, you aren't in his head. You just inserted that in there passing over the analysis of what you actually know for a fact. You assume it was "that badly" with not much thought, it appears. You state it as fact. You weren't there. You don't know how badly BB wanted to keep him. And, again, as I speculated (not claimed I knew), it could be for inter-personal reasons, not team reasons.

Mangini's performance as coordinator was abysmal. Period. That we know.

And the numbers as Jets coach speak for themselves. I didn't invent them. You igorred those facts.

J D Sal

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

How does it play for 2002? Well, if that is all we had to go on for Romeo Crenel, I'd say not very well for him. Lets say 2001 had never happened, HIS first year as DC with the Pats. But we have more to go on. What we do know is in Mangini's first year, there was an issue. It was fixed the next year when he was gone. Its all we have to go on as far as the job he was doing as DC.

J D Sal

You are proving my point for me. You want to pin 2002 on Crennel??? A DC can't make caviar out of crap! No thought to Steve Martin's putrid contributions at NT/DT? Whose fault was that? Our FA moves that year were horrible.

Remember how NEM used to blame bad offensive performances on Weis all the time regardless of how the player's executed.

This is what your argument reminds me of except it's defense.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

.

I think disregarding BB's advice shows Mangini to be a fool. BB said he wasn't ready. Guess what? He's not. BB right again.

J D Sal

I think it was a combination of BB perceiving Mangini as not being ready AND that the Jets head coaching job was the wrong opportunity. While first opportunities are rare, second opportunities or more are even rarer (unless your name is Norv) after a failed first one if it is perceived to be a cluster**** which this one is.
In many small close knit organizations, disagreements are dealt with internally without airing dirty laundry. By exposing what the Pats and others were doing as opposed to simply shutting the camera down as was done in many other places, he breached an unwritten code of conduct. Would you trust someone like that in the event you had an off the record conversation? Didn't think so... Enjoy this opportunity Mr. Mangini, you may not ever get another one at this level....

 

[JDSal45]

You are proving my point for me. You want to pin 2002 on Crennel??? A DC can't make caviar out of crap! No thought to Steve Martin's putrid contributions at NT/DT? Whose fault was that? Our FA moves that year were horrible.

Remember how NEM used to blame bad offensive performances on Weis all the time regardless of how the player's executed.

This is what your argument reminds me of except it's defense.

Let me answer that directly so perhaps, perhaps you won't remain confused (I'm not sure though). No, I do not want to "pin" 2002 on Crennel. Why? I have plenty of evidence of what Crennel can do. Is no clear enough?

As for 2005. I do not want to "pin" (again you select words to suit your own position of misunderstanding what was origininally being discussed...but whatever) on Mangini. I maintain he did a poor job. I don't know where "pin" came from.

I suspect you don't want to discuss the matter, but just frame the facts/or statements I make to suit what you want your own opinion to be because you repeatedly do this.

J D Sal

 

[JDSal45]

So, BB is going to keep a subpar DC (in your opinion) simply for Mangini's own good? No thought to how that might impact the team's chance to win?

Perhaps he felt EM could improve from year 1 to 2 as a coordinator. He believes the same of players. It is possible that could happen. I think so too. But instead, EM jumped at a job he's proven to be not ready for.

J D Sal

 

[80Brown]

NFL tradition is that disciples don't take jobs in their mentor's division as long as the mentor is still coaching. Mangini $hi# on that too.

What about Petrino? He left his team high and dry with three games left. NFL "tradition" says you don't leave your team before the season is over. What about what Saban did? And many more I can't think of right now.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically Pony, but when millions of dollars are at stake, these types of "traditions" mean absolutely nothing. At the end of the day the NFL is first and foremost a business. With that, Mangini bit and chased the glory and the dollars.

I am sure as the day is long that if a competitor of my company offered me a huge promotion and more $$$, I would jump at it in a New York minute. Anyone saying otherwise is just fooling themselves.