The Official Vrabel vs Ben Johnson Discussion Thread

[Family]

I didn’t like, and don’t like instability in coaching staffs and front office personnel, for a bunch of reasons,.

Nobody does.

But you have to balance whether you will ever get to where we all want to go VS ripping off the band aid and getting the right people in who offer you at least a chance.

It really doesn't matter how long someone has been on the job if it's clear they can not do it.

Allowing someone to stay just because it's only been one year does not make sense.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Based on what we are all thinking he should go back to retirement.

With that said his DC and HC and Bentley's injury didn't do him any favors.

If Vrabes is running the BB D then they should learn if the issue is High or his mgt

High picked the wrong year to try his hand at coaching. Between injuries and game plans that didn't adjust to stop what the other team was doing, the LB's were not in the position to be successful. Poor line play also contributed to the LB position looking like a disaster. He may be worth another year as part of a well structured coaching staff.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Because Dunning Kruger-90% of people's opinion are not based on actual knowledge but on their pre-formed opinions. 90% of people are not doing the necessary research to form a good opinion.

My first thoughts were, Vrabel is average I want Johnson. Vrabel is old school run the ball, punt on 4th down coach that doesn't use analytics and is not modern enough. I think that's the casual fan. Defensive coach in an offensive world.

What I learned in researching Vrabel is:
-On advance Analytics Vrabel was top 3 on 4th down decision making in the NFL during his Titans tenure
-Vrabel is a game plan coach, if he has to throw 50 times and run 0 to win he will do it
-His 3 absolutes are limit turnovers, effect the opposing QB (Hello Abdul Carter), and pass efficiently. Nothing about a running game
-He was run first in TN because: Derrick Henry and Tannehill/Mariota. He's going to throw the ball a lot with Drake Maye.
-He uses and knows all the analytics, as part of his decision making, doesn't mean he goes with them 100% of the time as he shouldn't

People want offense, offense wins, Ben Johnson is proven as maybe the most innovative OC in the NFL. He's the shiny new toy while Vrabel is the old, dependable, toy you always loved. I want to play with the new toy. That's what people think.

Vrabel also has the confidence and decisiveness needed to command the attention of NFL players and the press. There is no way that Tavai and others would feel the need to speak out with him at the front of the room.

 

[PatsfanTN]

How many 6 win seasons does Vrabel get before you fire him?

Vrabel lost the team and wanted out.

No he didn’t and yes, I’m sure he wanted out.

 

[KCSVEN]

I think you have to be able to run effectively. You have to win the fistfight, and that’s run blocking on offense, and run stopping on defense. That’s the cornerstone, everything else builds off those abilities.

Vrabel thinks the opposite, his absolute musts are to pass the ball efficiently and effect the other QB.
He's right, analytics have shown the best teams win with the passing game. The #1 statistical probability on Cold hard football facts with all their data was Passer differential. It was #1 most predicative in terms of who would win and lose.

Vrabel had to run the ball so he did. Like all coaches he wants some balance, but he will play to the team strength and as he stated, it all starts with the pass offense and pass defense

 

[Froob]

Vrabel thinks the opposite, his absolute musts are to pass the ball efficiently and effect the other QB.
He's right, analytics have shown the best teams win with the passing game. The #1 statistical probability on Cold hard football facts with all their data was Passer differential. It was #1 most predicative in terms of who would win and lose.

Vrabel had to run the ball so he did. Like all coaches he wants some balance, but he will play to the team strength and as he stated, it all starts with the pass offense and pass defense

People are in for a pleasant surprise if they think Vrabel is another conservative Belichick guy.

 

[Ross12]

Vrabel thinks the opposite, his absolute musts are to pass the ball efficiently and effect the other QB.
He's right, analytics have shown the best teams win with the passing game. The #1 statistical probability on Cold hard football facts with all their data was Passer differential. It was #1 most predicative in terms of who would win and lose.

Vrabel had to run the ball so he did. Like all coaches he wants some balance, but he will play to the team strength and as he stated, it all starts with the pass offense and pass defense

The conventional wisdom that many (including Mayo) state is that you need to run the ball and stop the run to win, but these days you see a lot of teams with garbage run offense and defense, but electric passing games, do a lot of damage.

Vrabel is right in that the run game shouldn’t be the foundation of your offense anymore. Build a deadly passing game first, and then add a respectable rushing attack on top of that after. If you have a good pass game then you will never be out of the fight, but if you’re built on the run then you’re dead once you go down 2 scores.

 

[jimnance]

Johnson can't do an in-person interview until Jan. 20.
Pats need to do that. Kraft needs to tell Vrabel they need to do that. He'll wait.
If not, screw him.
Don't you want your owner to do due diligence with everything?
If I'm Vrabel, I sure as hell do. Not doing so before resulted in Mayo.
Johnson is an equal candidate to Vrabel and you owe it to the franchise to get this right.
There's no question Johnson will help Maye maximize his talent and elevate the offense to higher heights than Vrabel.
The biggest question is about culture: we know Vrabel will establish that and also get the defense on track.
We don't know 100% of that with Johnson. But by all accounts Johnson
will hold players accountable and can be just as fiery reaming them out as Vrabel.
They really need the in-person to get a better handle on this.
The one other thing I prefer with Johnson is he's gonna have some say in who runs personnel. I'm not crazy about Wolf in that role. A lesser role is fine but he f'd up this draft pretty good.

 

[Froob]

Johnson can't do an in-person interview until Jan. 20.
Pats need to do that. Kraft needs to tell Vrabel they need to do that. He'll wait.
If not, screw him.
Don't you want your owner to do due diligence with everything?
If I'm Vrabel, I sure as hell do. Not doing so before resulted in Mayo.
Johnson is an equal candidate to Vrabel and you owe it to the franchise to get this right.
There's no question Johnson will help Maye maximize his talent and elevate the offense to higher heights than Vrabel.
The biggest question is about culture: we know Vrabel will establish that and also get the defense on track.
We don't know 100% of that with Johnson. But by all accounts Johnson
will hold players accountable and can be just as fiery reaming them out as Vrabel.
They really need the in-person to get a better handle on this.
The one other thing I prefer with Johnson is he's gonna have some say in who runs personnel. I'm not crazy about Wolf in that role. A lesser role is fine but he f'd up this draft pretty good.

What do you get in person that you can’t get on zoom?

 

[rogerthat]

Majority of comments I see on other Patriot blogs/social media hate the Vrabel hire and thinks it will go like Mayo,
They overwhelmingly want Ben Johnson.
It’s interesting to me People could think Vrabel is a bad hire.

Thoughts?

Nonsense. The most underrated part of the job is being able to handle the Boston media. We know Vrabel can do it. We don’t know if Johnson can or not.

 

[Ross12]

I’m just really giddy about the idea of Josh McDaniels developing Drake Maye to be honest. Sure he’s not a “west coast” guy so you lose some of the bootleg stuff but I think Drake will be way more successful being a cerebral passer first and foremost who tucks and runs second, not just scrambling around all over the place like Russell Wilson.

 

[jimnance]

What do you get in person that you can’t get on zoom?

Are you serious? Cmon man, you know better.

 

[Love The Drake]

Nonsense. The most underrated part of the job is being able to handle the Boston media. We know Vrabel can do it. We don’t know if Johnson can or not.

I’m seeing a lot of hateful frustrated fans online.
I think Vrabel is a really good to great hire.
But I hate reading people making comments like should have just kept Jeord if we were just going to hire Mike.
Kraft will never learn, things like that:

 

[Froob]

Are you serious? Cmon man, you know better.

Seriously, why can’t you hire a guy over zoom? I mean unless Johnson has to see the facility.

 

[Rob0729]

Because Dunning Kruger-90% of people's opinion are not based on actual knowledge but on their pre-formed opinions. 90% of people are not doing the necessary research to form a good opinion.

My first thoughts were, Vrabel is average I want Johnson. Vrabel is old school run the ball, punt on 4th down coach that doesn't use analytics and is not modern enough. I think that's the casual fan. Defensive coach in an offensive world.

What I learned in researching Vrabel is:
-On advance Analytics Vrabel was top 3 on 4th down decision making in the NFL during his Titans tenure
-Vrabel is a game plan coach, if he has to throw 50 times and run 0 to win he will do it
-His 3 absolutes are limit turnovers, effect the opposing QB (Hello Abdul Carter), and pass efficiently. Nothing about a running game
-He was run first in TN because: Derrick Henry and Tannehill/Mariota. He's going to throw the ball a lot with Drake Maye.
-He uses and knows all the analytics, as part of his decision making, doesn't mean he goes with them 100% of the time as he shouldn't

People want offense, offense wins, Ben Johnson is proven as maybe the most innovative OC in the NFL. He's the shiny new toy while Vrabel is the old, dependable, toy you always loved. I want to play with the new toy. That's what people think.

People seem to think Vrabel is a Belichick disciple just because he played for Belichick. So they think he coaches like Belichick. He does have a lot of Belichick's traits in how he approaches game planning and strategy, but system-wise he was always different.

Vrabel hired Matt LaFleur as his first OC. LaFleur runs a Shannahan/McVey style offense. Not the McDaniels system. Obviously, what Shanahan and McVey run is considered a more modern style of offense and most pass heavy. So to believe he is going to go old school on offense is not true.

Vrabel isn't my first choice, but I am ok with him being hired. He is definitely a solid head coach. Is he a championship level head coach? IDK, it will depend on Maye and the players the Patriots' front office gives Vrabel.

I am more against bringing McDaniels back as rumored. I think McDaniels can help groom Maye, but I don't like his offense for Maye nor for today's NFL. I would rather consider Nick Caley (assuming they are bringing someone back from the Belichick staff). I like that Caley has been learning from McVey and has been in charge of the passing offense for the Rams.

And right now Carter is my pick for the Patriots to pick at 4. I am no draftnick or college football fan. But if Carter lives up to the hype, he is a defensive player that teams have to gameplan for and Vrabel can use him all over the field like the Cowboys use Micah Parsons.

 

[Love The Drake]

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[rogerthat]

I’m seeing a lot of hateful frustrated fans online.
I think Vrabel is a really good to great hire.
But I hate reading people making comments like should have just kept Jeord if we were just going to hire Mike.
Kraft will never learn, things like that:

It’s kind of the way of the world…most people don’t have the depth of knowledge that we do. They know Mayo was a former player for this team, they know Vrabel was, too, and that’s probably as much as they know. They want to be part of the discussion so they are basically spitballing.

 

[jimnance]

Seriously, why can’t you hire a guy over zoom? I mean unless Johnson has to see the facility.

First of all, you gave Vrabel an in-person interview. Need to fo the same with Johnson.
Secondly, we already know Johnson can really scheme. Kraft needs to get a better handle with him on establishing his culture. I've hired people before. When it's an extremely important position, you need to get it right.
There's things like body language that don't come across zoom. They need to push his buttons a bit to see how he reacts. Grill him about his DC and other hires. Zoom is very limited.

 

[Rob0729]

I’m just really giddy about the idea of Josh McDaniels developing Drake Maye to be honest. Sure he’s not a “west coast” guy so you lose some of the bootleg stuff but I think Drake will be way more successful being a cerebral passer first and foremost who tucks and runs second, not just scrambling around all over the place like Russell Wilson.

I would love McDaniels as a QB coach. But I am not sure I love him as the OC. Maybe he comes in as the assistant head coach or consultant and works with Maye but have another OC who comes from the Shanahan or McVey tree (Nick Caley, perhaps).

 

[Froob]

I would love McDaniels as a QB coach. But I am not sure I love him as the OC. Maybe he comes in as the assistant head coach or consultant and works with Maye but have another OC who comes from the Shanahan or McVey tree (Nick Caley, perhaps).

Perhaps an associate head coach thing. I think it’ll be Reese though because that’s been Vrabel’s style on offense.

Also should keep Maye in the system he’s been under with AVP. Perhaps AVP sticks around in some capacity.