The Next Mike Vrabel?

[Clonamery]

At 335, maybe he could back up Wilfork at NT.

He'd be a "quick" 335, too.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

At 335, maybe he could back up Wilfork at NT.

:ugh:



......

 

[mmasterkillah]

Vilma at safety? He's what 6' 225lbs?

He played about about 233-235 with NYJ.
Mayo had maybe 5 pounds on him when they came out of college respectively.

I know that some of the guys I listed are more athletes than classic NE style LB's, but I feel like we are going to take what the draft has to offer with value, and honestly I don't see many natural 3-4 backers in this class. If we want one we have to go up and get Everette Brown, Maulauga or somebody really high. I'd rather take another S or CB and focus on securing the lines than go and get Connor Barwin with one of these aforementioned prospects likely to go 3 rounds later than Barwin.

Somebody disagreed with me earlier when I said we don't want to have to teach more DE converts to OLB. We don't have to teach all these kids to play LBer all over again, just teach them how to use their partially honed ball hawking skills to play our style LB.

Value wise, I am not sold on Barwin... does that mean any of these other guys are great fits? Not necessarily, but they are football players.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

He played about about 233-235 with NYJ.
Mayo had maybe 5 pounds on him when they came out of college respectively.

I know that some of the guys I listed are more athletes than classic NE style LB's, but I feel like we are going to take what the draft has to offer with value, and honestly I don't see many natural 3-4 backers in this class. If we want one we have to go up and get Everette Brown, Maulauga or somebody really high. I'd rather take another S or CB and focus on securing the lines than go and get Connor Barwin with one of these aforementioned prospects likely to go 3 rounds later than Barwin.

Somebody disagreed with me earlier when I said we don't want to have to teach more DE converts to OLB. We don't have to teach all these kids to play LBer all over again, just teach them how to use their partially honed ball hawking skills to play our style LB.

Value wise, I am not sold on Barwin... does that mean any of these other guys are great fits? Not necessarily, but they are football players.

I believe you've downplayed the weight difference between Vilma and Mayo. Vilma was 233 at the Combine, Mayo 242. Vilma was 6' 1/2", Mayo was 6' 1 1/4". 9 lbs and 3/4" larger suggests a little more of a frame for further bulking up.

I did an analysis of the LBs on the Pats rosters back to 2001 once upon a time: Starting LBs for NE have been 6'1" 245 or larger (and that 245 was Chad Brown, little Tedy Bruschi at 247 was the lightest prior to Mayo).

Mayo came out of the Combine (where most prospects have slimmed down to be faster and quicker) lacking three lbs. of the lightest weight for a starting Patriot LB. Vilma, who played for NY two lbs heavier than his Combine weight, would have needed to gain 12 lbs to match the starting weight for a NE LB.

It's reasonable to expect a LB to put on 5 or so lbs of muscle initially, some with the right frame may be able to bulk up 10-15 lbs in time (something to be desired for Crable). The lads you like are, for the most part, on the too light side. Perhaps their Pro-Days or Combine weights will change the equation, but for now you are focusing on their athletic ability and not evaluating their ability to take the pounding a NE LB faces in their job.

 

[BradyManny]

Though I'm still shopping for a young buck to pair inside with Mayo for the long term (Sintim this year or Norwood next year).

That's why I was hoping Brinkley was the answer but I know you and a few others aren't impressed with his skills.

I really do wonder if Woods' play will allow the coaching staff to move AD inside at least on running downs. I hope so. Nothing against Bruschi, but AD is just more physical and able to play that position at this point.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Wasn't Vilma a bust? Otherwise why did he get cut? I remember the main concern with Vilma was that he was too small to be a Pats linebacker. Why has that changed, unless he's gotten himself to the 240-245 lb range?

 

[mayoclinic]

Wasn't Vilma a bust? Otherwise why did he get cut? I remember the main concern with Vilma was that he was too small to be a Pats linebacker. Why has that changed, unless he's gotten himself to the 240-245 lb range?

Vilma didn't get cut, he was traded to the Saints for conditional pick(s) (they were undisclosed at the time, and I don't know the details). He was a star in NY's 4-3 defense before Mangina arrived, but didn't have the size or skills to adopt to 3-4 ILB, so NY opted to trade him to a 4-3 team. I believe that the trade New Orleans made makes it difficult for them to resign him. He was also recently arrested for drunk driving.

I'll pass.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Vilma didn't get cut, he was traded to the Saints for conditional pick(s) (they were undisclosed at the time, and I don't know the details). He was a star in NY's 4-3 defense before Mangina arrived, but didn't have the size or skills to adopt to 3-4 ILB, so NY opted to trade him to a 4-3 team. I believe that the trade New Orleans made makes it difficult for them to resign him. He was also recently arrested for drunk driving.

Actually, what makes it difficult for the Saints to resign Vilma before he hits FA is the trade they made for Jeremy Shockey. If the Saints resign Vilma before FA begins, then they owe the JEST their 2009 second--which they already promised to the Gnats for Shockey. So if they resign Vilma before FA begins, they then owe a* first-round pick to the Gnats, but if they wait, they give the Gnats a second and the JEST a third.

*It's not entirely clear if it's a 2010 first or a 2009 first.

 

[BradyManny]

Actually, what makes it difficult for the Saints to resign Vilma before he hits FA is the trade they made for Jeremy Shockey. If the Saints resign Vilma before FA begins, then they owe the JEST their 2009 second--which they already promised to the Gnats for Shockey. So if they resign Vilma before FA begins, they then owe a* first-round pick to the Gnats, but if they wait, they give the Gnats a second and the JEST a third.

*It's not entirely clear if it's a 2010 first or a 2009 first.

Damn, I'd hate for the Giants to get another 1st rounder. I hope he does not re-sign w NO then.

 

[mcsully]

I thought AD was great at SILB in the start of 07 and that the run defense dropped considerably once Colvin got injured and everything changed. I like AD outside, too, but on the run-first kind of downs, I think he has a bigger impact inside.

.

I was thinking of this very thought earlier today.. I need to find the stats but moving AD outside caused the yards per rush to go up.

 

[Synovia]

I was thinking of this very thought earlier today.. I need to find the stats but moving AD outside caused the yards per rush to go up.

Just to clarify, AD going outside didn't cause the YPRush to go up, but the net of the move did, IE Colvin being replaced in the top 4 by increased playing time for Seau, etc. AD was fine at OLB. His replacement at ILB wasnt.

 

[BradyManny]

Just to clarify, AD going outside didn't cause the YPRush to go up, but the net of the move did, IE Colvin being replaced in the top 4 by increased playing time for Seau, etc. AD was fine at OLB. His replacement at ILB wasnt.

Hey, we finally agree on something.

Yeah, exactly - AD is solid at OLB and good at ILB. The #s against the run being worse with him outside was a function of the ripple effect...Bruschi going to SILB and or Seau with more time at WILB.

 

[mmasterkillah]

Vilma didn't get cut, he was traded to the Saints for conditional pick(s) (they were undisclosed at the time, and I don't know the details). He was a star in NY's 4-3 defense before Mangina arrived, but didn't have the size or skills to adopt to 3-4 ILB, so NY opted to trade him to a 4-3 team. I believe that the trade New Orleans made makes it difficult for them to resign him. He was also recently arrested for drunk driving.

I'll pass.

First off, he wasn't arrested for drunk driving. He was pulled over for "wreckless driving", didn't have any drugs or alcohol on him or in his system. What he got in trouble for was that he argued and resisted arrest because he said he didn't do anything to deserve to be pulled over. If you know him, you know his personality is exactly the opposite of what this incident makes it seem. He was always a humble and hardworking student and athlete.

The Jets made a provision when Vilma was seeking a suitor, that he could negotiate a trade with ANY TEAM EXCEPT THE PATRIOTS. I am sure there was some reason Mangini decided to use that clause.

Vilma had some injury problems and then he got into it with Mangini, basically saying he didn't trust him nor did he want to play in his defense anymore. It had little to do with the fact that he can't handle a 3-4.

Also, 5-10 pounds shouldn't change your opinion on a player if he has other attributes that are overwhelmingly sound. Keep in mind, he was on a defense that was playing 3-4 that wasn't built for that (no legit NTs, etc.).

Jon Vilma was the Saints Defensive MVP this season, he loves to hit, was a Captain at the U, is good in coverage and is a model citizen (up until this recent incident). If we can get him for with significant value, it would be stupid to ignore him.

EDIT: Also, just read that Dan Morgan is going to try to return. He will likely return to the Saints, but they may release him as well. Zach Thomas is another possibility, as we did try to sign him a year ago. Though he didn't play very well for Dallas.

 

[mayoclinic]

Thanks for setting me straight on the wreckless vs. drunk driving thing. I don't know much about Vilma from a character perspective - I had never heard anything negative about him until this incident. I'll take your word for it.

I wasn't passing on Vilma because of that incident, anyway. I think he was a great player in the 4-3 for the Jets, but I just don't see him being suited for the 3-4. On the other hand, anyone who has problems with Mangini has to have something positive going for him.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Since before the 2004 draft there's been someone telling us how great Vilma would be for NE, while BB would undoubtedly find a way to make use of the talent, it doesn't mean he's a great or even good fit for BB's defense.

The point was just made that Mangini allowed Vilma to seek a trade to anyone but NE - think about that, Vilma the superstar ILB was allowed to seek a trade! Forget the 'anyone but NE' window dressing. Mangini may be a lot of things, but he's a very good coach and if Vilma was that effective in his defense - NT or no NT (how about that David Harris?)- Mangini would have found a way to resolve any personality issues and keep Vilma.

Vilma is a smoke screen, talent is a must but it's the bright light both marking and concealing oncoming traffic - look beyond the light to find the mass that will run you over.

 

[mmasterkillah]

Since before the 2004 draft there's been someone telling us how great Vilma would be for NE, while BB would undoubtedly find a way to make use of the talent, it doesn't mean he's a great or even good fit for BB's defense.

The point was just made that Mangini allowed Vilma to seek a trade to anyone but NE - think about that, Vilma the superstar ILB was allowed to seek a trade! Forget the 'anyone but NE' window dressing. Mangini may be a lot of things, but he's a very good coach and if Vilma was that effective in his defense - NT or no NT (how about that David Harris?)- Mangini would have found a way to resolve any personality issues and keep Vilma.

Vilma is a smoke screen, talent is a must but it's the bright light both marking and concealing oncoming traffic - look beyond the light to find the mass that will run you over.

While I agree he isn't optimal for our system, he was still very effective in the 3-4. Was he as good as Harris or worth his Jets-salary in that system? Not necessarily, but he is still a very productive and capable player in our system, and any other.

While he may not be the best block-shedding 'backer in the game, I don't see any of those types available this offseason, who could presumably play ILB for us.

The departure was a mutual agreement. First off, Jon made it clear that he didn't like the way he was used nor did he like Mangini's communication techniques. Mangini had made it clear that he was concerned about Jon's injuries as well. The relationship, coinciding with Jonathan's obvious skills in the 4-3 made the Saints an easy destination. I guarantee you that Mangini would have hung himself when he saw Vilma do something similar in our defense to what Mayo did for us this season.

What skills do you guys think that Vilma lacks that would make him a non-factor for the Patriots?
He has never been dominated by blockers despite his size.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

While he may not be the best block-shedding 'backer in the game, I don't see any of those types available this offseason, who could presumably play ILB for us.

You listed Norris, a DE who needs to find a new position, surely he isn't the only player out there who lined up somewhere other than ILB in college who might be capable of learning to play ILB in the NE 3-4?

 

[mmasterkillah]

You listed Norris, a DE who needs to find a new position, surely he isn't the only player out there who lined up somewhere other than ILB in college who might be capable of learning to play ILB in the NE 3-4?

I'm not sure I had ILB in mind for Norris, as I would view him as more of an edge rusher ala the thread title "Mike Vrabel". I do think there are more transitional prospects, but once again they are either going to be taken really early (Everette Brown) or they are big question marks.

I would be thrilled with Toal at ILB in the 5th round. If he can stay healthy he has great natural talents, but he is a project. Gerald McRath may run himself out of my range, but if he is available 4th round, his athleticism is a steal.

Which late round "value-picks" do you think could contribute for us at LB over the next year or two? I don't see any EJ Henderson's, unless you want to trade up for Ray Maulauga.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm not sure I had ILB in mind for Norris, as I would view him as more of an edge rusher ala the thread title "Mike Vrabel". I do think there are more transitional prospects, but once again they are either going to be taken really early (Everette Brown) or they are big question marks.

Which late round "value-picks" do you think could contribute for us at LB over the next year or two?

Now I'm confused, most of the kids you listed looked to be ILB types, what position are you drafting ILB or OLB or both?

 

[Taxed in Maine]

I am quite sure that when he left the Jets he made it very clear he was unhappy playing in a 3-4 defense. I seriously doubt he would come to NE, because he doen't feel that playing in a 3-4 is the right fit for him.

IIRC this came from an interview I saw on the NFL network, and he made his feelings about the situation very clear.