The DL- who stays - who goes, when we draft.

[Seneschal2]

Deaderick was suspended for all of 2 days. It was a lesson sent ot him by BB. He played well most of the year for a rookie. We should cut him because of that minor suspension? I don't think so.

Suspensions aren't minor -- benchings are.

Reportedly, he'd been fined earlier in the season for missing team meetings. He played in 10 games, started four, and did not play much during the last month while seeing no action the last two games of the regular season. He then gets suspended as his teammates prepare for the playoffs.

Whether or not he's learned a lesson we may or may not find out. Fact is, your opinion of him "playing well for most of the year" is muddied by disciplinary action on two occasions. And considering the emphasis placed on team preparedness for the all important second season, I'm left wondering why he didn't learn from that early season fining, get his act together, and maintain his focus while preparing for the playoffs.

I'm listing him as expendable, unless the powers that be believe he's matured enough, and has the necessary skills to compete for a roster spot. Bottom line is, patience is required for the developmental process of any player who has the desired intangibles -- but does he? None of us know, so I'll just speculate that Belichick is not willing to expend too much energy in a 7th round investment -- unless that player deems himself worthy...

 

[bucky]

Suspensions aren't minor -- benchings are.

Reportedly, he'd been fined earlier in the season for missing team meetings. He played in 10 games, started four, and did not play much during the last month while seeing no action the last two games of the regular season. He then gets suspended as his teammates prepare for the playoffs.

Whether or not he's learned a lesson we may or may not find out. Fact is, your opinion of him "playing well for most of the year" is muddied by disciplinary action on two occasions. And considering the emphasis placed on team preparedness for the all important second season, I'm left wondering why he didn't learn from that early season fining, get his act together, and maintain his focus while preparing for the playoffs.

I'm listing him as expendable, unless the powers that be believe he's matured enough, and has the necessary skills to compete for a roster spot. Bottom line is, patience is required for the developmental process of any player who has the desired intangibles -- but does he? None of us know, so I'll just speculate that Belichick is not willing to expend too much energy in a 7th round investment -- unless that player deems himself worthy...

Deaderick is a big X factor. He could become a very formidable starter. Or he could be out of football by October. It's all in his hands, but can he be counted on?

Wright, IMO, is 1 concussion away from retiring.

Stroud is at best a bridge to whoever is the next RDE. Or he may be this year's version of Damione Lewis.

Vince, Warren and Brace should hold down the NT, LDE and primary backup spots.

Pryor is a below average sub rusher and a poor backup NT. Certainly he can be improved on.

Everyone else is a jag at best.

I don't think we necessarily need 2 DEs. But we certainly need one who can play on all 3 downs. We're not going to get a Seymour. But I'd be happy with a Shaun Ellis or Aaron Smith.

 

[supafly]

As you said, Wright is questionable to return. I say if he comes back or is unsure, we make the decision for him. I'm not seriously disappointed in his play, but he IS a sub-rusher. This move is primarily in deference to his health. But also keeps in mind that he's just a sub-rusher. The scheme can be adjusted to compensate.

Pryor - He showed some serious flashes as rookie. Then very little since. It's been a few years now. If he had (or was able) to continue on his early trajectory we wouldn't have much of a need at the position now. Unfortunately he plateaued well short of what we need.

Stroud is a possibility. He's a stopgap by design. Fill the gap and he becomes redundant.

G. Warren - see above, but I consider him much safer to stay than Stroud.

Brace is officially on notice. His development is slow and disappointing.



All of the above guys (except Weston and Love who you didn't mention) are proven jags and can be replaced by someone with untapped potential. Weston and Love haven't had enough opportunity to prove anything, positive or negative, so I wouldn't give up on them yet.

(...and yes, I am a heartless bastid)

Actually, it hasn't 'been a few yrs since.'

Yes, he showed flashes as a rookie, and yes, he played hurt all yr and didn't show much in his 2nd yr.

That's it. 2 years.

One pretty decent rookie campaign, and one pretty sub-par 2nd yr campaign--although he was hurt all year.

With already having shown at least 'some' flashes at times, and some basic knowledge of the system, I imagine he's okay unless someone comes in and outplays him in Training Camp--and that's okay too. He at least provides viable competition.

 

[supafly]

Excellent thread. The "trade down and collect picks" crowd usually don't indicate where the roster spots are coming from. I think a similar discussion would be interesting at other positions. My thoughts:

- Wilfork is an obvious lock at NT
- TWarren is a lock if he is healthy (have to assume he is)
- Pryor is a cheap option with a defined role that he does well. No reason to replace
- Brace has unique size and corresponding position flexibility

That leaves 3-4 spots left and doesn't restrict any draft options for the Pats (besides a starting caliber NT which this draft really doesn't have anyway). Stroud, Wright, Deaderick and Love are at the front of the class...but a day 1 or 2 pick on the DL will necessarily knock one of them out of the mix barring injury.

Since I'm mocking Cam Jordan to the Pats, that is bad news for Wright. People mocking Wilkerson have to dispose of either Stroud or Deaderick. These tradeoffs make the decisions harder than drafting a RB or OLB into essentially an open roster spot.

Agreed. Unless someone shows up to camp and really outplays him, and as I said before--that's still a good thing anyway. At the very least, he provides knowledge of the system, and viable competition as a 6th rd draft pick. No major problems with him here.

Now if he comes back this yr well rested and injury free, and has another yr much like last...then it's likely time to move on.

 

[MaineMan]

Suspensions aren't minor -- benchings are.

Reportedly, he'd been fined earlier in the season for missing team meetings. He played in 10 games, started four, and did not play much during the last month while seeing no action the last two games of the regular season. He then gets suspended as his teammates prepare for the playoffs.

Whether or not he's learned a lesson we may or may not find out. Fact is, your opinion of him "playing well for most of the year" is muddied by disciplinary action on two occasions. And considering the emphasis placed on team preparedness for the all important second season, I'm left wondering why he didn't learn from that early season fining, get his act together, and maintain his focus while preparing for the playoffs.

I'm listing him as expendable, unless the powers that be believe he's matured enough, and has the necessary skills to compete for a roster spot. Bottom line is, patience is required for the developmental process of any player who has the desired intangibles -- but does he? None of us know, so I'll just speculate that Belichick is not willing to expend too much energy in a 7th round investment -- unless that player deems himself worthy...

Very well put.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

1. G. Warren is listed on the roster.
2. Weston was a 7th rounder last year was put on IR. To my knowledge he was not released. But maybe the light did not come on and he was.

The point being is, why is DE such a pressing need (meaning 1st round)? It seems to me that getting a top OLB or 2 is the pressing need. Having the OLB position improved can lead to improved play with the DE's that we have.
Not saying we should not add one in this deep draft in the other rounds.

1. See what I mean about the PFW roster?
2. I don't know, I expected to see him back for another try this year, but patchick interpreted his departure as vaya con dios, so no one really knows one way or another outside Gillette and his agent.

Why is DE such a pressing need?
-- No clear cut starter has emerged to fill Jarvis Green's shoes at RDE, let alone Seymour's.
-- Mike Wright does a pretty good Jarvis Green, but is better reserved for passing down sub-packages where Green excelled before filling in for Sey.
-- Deadrick had an okay rookie season, marred by a suspension, has the light come on or not?
-- Brace is pretty much relegated to LDE duty, which might allow Ty Warren to flip sides, or might not.
-- Regardless of whomever else is on the roster after Wilfork and Warren (and some claim Wilfork only), NE is always looking to upgrade their depth, if not their starting line-up. This is a deep class where a DE might just be the best NE Patriot prospect in round one, certainly trying to guess who fits the team best from information available to fans suggests there are round one projected DL who would at least challenge the top reserves ... and you gotta do something with those picks.

Personally, I'm leaning toward OT in round one with so much fuss being made over the DL class. However, even if I didn't stay in a locked shed last night, I'm still wrapped in the smog of the draft.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Umm, Kaczur will turn 32 on July 28, just about the start of camp. His effectiveness was indeed deteriorating in '08 and '09 and he's just spent (effectively) a year on IR. He's already been asked to take a pay cut and refused.

Odd, I saw Kaczur's performance in 08 and 09 as improving as his RT repetitions increased to the point where muscle memory wasn't a hindrance for a guy who played left-sided for five seasons before winning RT in 2006.

I have no thoughts on his brief time at LG, certainly it appeared NE wanted him back for the season after his back surgery ... I've since read he had a shoulder injury in training which knocked his hope of returning in time out the window. Crap happens.

I read the reports he was asked to take a pay cut, they implied he would be released before the CBA expired after declining the reduced offer. He wasn't released. Neal's retirement decision came in about that time which may have lifted the Sword of Damocles from Kaczur, or the original reports may have been in error - like that's ever happened.

Either way, Kaczur is currently one of five NE OL with multiple start experience, and one of those four is suing the NFL over the validity of the franchise tag applied to him. I'd say the odds of Kaczur getting cut before training camp are well down as long as he can pass a physical.

 

[townes]

There are only 2 guys who have proven they can be starters to me:
1. Vince Wilfork
2. Ty Warren

The rest are backups or JAGs. I honestly don't feel any love for G. Warren. He performed at stop gap levels, no more than that.

Stroud is the guy who I have an eye on who could be the starter at RDE until we get a rookie understudy who is ready to step in fulltime.

The other guys, Weston, Love, Pyror. Are you serious? Backup material at best. Wright is the only sure backup in that pool, when healthy. Brace is a puzzle. I think he has the potential to be more than a backup JAG, but he has only shown flashes at best.

Let's not overvalue the guys we have just because they wear the Pats laundry. The DL can be seriously upgraded in this year's draft and none of the guys we have now are what I'd consider starter level pros outside of Wilfork and Warren. And we're still lacking a Seymour level talent at DE who can demand double teams and make life easier for our OLBs.

Pretty much how I see it. Wilfork is the only stud on this line and they have questions all around him. The great Patriot teams had a minimum of 2 and to some degree 3 DL who really needed to be double teamed and they completely lack that now. They can get quality play out of a number of their current DL but they need standouts for their defense to excel. This draft seems to offer plenty of options at DL for them in the first round and the question is how they read the prospects there. For the most part I would be fine with them taking two DL in the first if they see the talent there.

 

[crowell33]

Deaderick was suspended for all of 2 days. It was a lesson sent ot him by BB. He played well most of the year for a rookie. We should cut him because of that minor suspension? I don't think so.

I was recently re-reading the scouting reports from last year's Patriots ( PFW).

While at Alabama Deadrick was arrested outside of a bar for giving a false name to police, resisting arrest and criminal mischief for breaking the inside of the police cars window by smashing his head against it.

He was later shot during an apparent robery in his apartment complex. The bullet went through his arm and lodged in his hip.

BB's suspension of Deadrick was just another chapter for this poor guy. The scouting report calls him someone who is "immature and must have his Character closely evaluated" .

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I was recently re-reading the scouting reports from last year's Patriots ( PFW).

While at Alabama Deadrick was arrested outside of a bar for giving a false name to police, resisting arrest and criminal mischief for breaking the inside of the police cars window by smashing his head against it.

He was later shot during an apparent robery in his apartment complex. The bullet went through his arm and lodged in his hip.

BB's suspension of Deadrick was just another chapter for this poor guy. The scouting report calls him someone who is "immature and must have his Character closely evaluated" .

I recall reading somewhere, which at this point could have been gossip posted here - such is my memory a year later - that Saban's staff felt Deadrick had all the tools to be a top DL, but he coasted too much in his work. I recall seeing a couple Alabama games to check out Mount Cody and noticed this kid subbing in at NT and stacking up double-teams as nicely as you please - Deadrick. He showed good lateral mobility in trash, physically everything NE could want. I'm glad to have him as a seventh, one season has basically paid his score, I saw a report he was back at 'bama working out while waiting so he didn't burn any bridges with Saban and the school. Hopefully, the Vince Wilfork Motivational Speaker program helps him find himself in season two to the same degree it helped Ron Brace brace up, that would be some fun.

 

[capetide]

....Either way, Kaczur is currently one of five NE OL with multiple start experience, and one of those four is suing the NFL over the validity of the franchise tag applied to him. I'd say the odds of Kaczur getting cut before training camp are well down as long as he can pass a physical.

Kaczur's presence on the roster only emphasizes the importance of selecting multiple quality OL in the draft ( and hopefully FA's after there's a CBA). Need upgrades. You see improvement. I see speed rushers going by him before he even begins to react.

 

[Fencer]

What's the evidence on either T. Warren or Brace playing RDE? Box seems to think it's pretty bad for Brace, but I don't recall the particulars. I have vague recollection it's pretty bad on T. Warren too -- but again, I don't recall the particulars.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

What's the evidence on either T. Warren or Brace playing RDE? Box seems to think it's pretty bad for Brace, but I don't recall the particulars. I have vague recollection it's pretty bad on T. Warren too -- but again, I don't recall the particulars.

In comparison to Seymour, none.

Brace is best at LDE, he's more of a power on power guy. Warren has been great at LDE, as a rookie he took some RDE reps, but he's been pretty set on the offensive right. If he has his health back and his pre-injury quickness returns, and there's no left side-right side issues for him, then he could be a very good RDE. Dating back to Sey the RDE has generally been a quicker guy with a stronger pass rush repertoire, guys like Green and Wright have done a better job subbing in on the right then the left due to the nature of the O-line - bigger drive blockers tend to be on the right side (power on power with Brace above), finesse pass blockers tend to be on the left.

Maybe if Brace or Love evolve at NT, or NE picks up another NT in the draft who can spell Vince, then Vince can kick out to RDE more. Of course NE could just find a DE candidate in this draft class - who knows?

 

[mgteich]

BOTTOM LINE
The quality of the first 50 picks is at defensive end (plus some quality early at DT). We have three picks in the top 40. Defensive end is a position of need. Belichick has often drafted a defensive lineman in the first round. There is every reason to believe that Belichick will draft a defensive lineman in the first 50.
==========================
NO ONE goes when we draft. There seems no reason to worry about who will make the final DL until Labor Day, unless someone thinks that we don't need a defensive end in the best defensive end draft in a decade. Certainly, Belichick will not fail to draft a DE because of the presence of the mighty players Brace, Deaderick and Pryor.
===========================
But I'll play.
===========================
The CORE OF 4
-----------------
WILFORK lock
WARREN lock (why wouldn't he be at least good enough to be a backup?)
WRIGHT lock unless he retires which is possible, but he's planning to play
DRAFTEE lock (surely we'll draft one defensive lineman in the first 3 rounds)

THE NEXT 3: LIKELY BACKUPS (or starters as needed)
----------------
BRACE
STROUD
DEADERICK

OUTSIDE LOOKING IN
--------------------
PRYOR (moves up if Wright retires)
LOVE
WESTON
COHEN
RICHARD
WARREN (free agent; could be signed to compete with Stroud for a roster spot)

 

[Fencer]

In comparison to Seymour, none.

Brace is best at LDE, he's more of a power on power guy. Warren has been great at LDE, as a rookie he took some RDE reps, but he's been pretty set on the offensive right. If he has his health back and his pre-injury quickness returns, and there's no left side-right side issues for him, then he could be a very good RDE. Dating back to Sey the RDE has generally been a quicker guy with a stronger pass rush repertoire, guys like Green and Wright have done a better job subbing in on the right then the left due to the nature of the O-line - bigger drive blockers tend to be on the right side (power on power with Brace above), finesse pass blockers tend to be on the left.

Maybe if Brace or Love evolve at NT, or NE picks up another NT in the draft who can spell Vince, then Vince can kick out to RDE more. Of course NE could just find a DE candidate in this draft class - who knows?

So in principle we could be set with Brace at LDE, Wilfork at NT, and Warren at RDE?

Obviously, that wouldn't preclude drafting a guy who is hoped to be starting quality at RDE, especially if he also projects to be useful on passing downs.

 

[DaBruinz]

With all the discussion of getting a top DE in this years draft, almost like it's a priority, here are the current DL's that patriots now have. They will probably only keep 8 on the regular season roster, maybe 7.

The top DL's are, T. Warren, G Warren, Wilfork, Stroud,Brace, Deaderick, Wright,Pryor.

Then we have Richard, Cohen, Favorite, Prior and Weston (IR last year) . Weston is loaded with talent and potential if the light comes on for him.

So, who goes if we draft 1 or 2 DE's? Wright could be done if his head is not well. So who do we draft and who's place do they take?

It's a lot easier when talking about OLB. But the DL does not look all that bad if we get OLB's to pressure and set the edge.

I've said it in some other threads, but it's my believe that Wright is done. The article/interview with him about a month ago did not sound promising. And I believe he'll not be able to pass a physical once TC rolls around. I say it not because I hate him. On the contrary, I've loved Mike Wright's style of play since he came to the team as a UDFA.

 

[mgteich]

I think that we could be "set" if you add Stroud and Deaderick to that mix (with Love ast backup NT)

So in principle we could be set with Brace at LDE, Wilfork at NT, and Warren at RDE?

Obviously, that wouldn't preclude drafting a guy who is hoped to be starting quality at RDE, especially if he also projects to be useful on passing downs.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Theis is a really good draft for DE's and DT's. I'm not saying that we should not take one or 2. I think that we can get quality players in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. But with Warren coming back and the addition of Stroud, I don't think it is our most pressing need.

The most pressing need is OLB. This is the position that we need to take one of the best, even if it means a trade up. Then we can take another later along with OL and DE.

BTW, Deaderick did some really good things as a rookie. But he was a rookie and needed to be put in his place. BB did that by suspending him and making him inactive for a game. That does not mean that he is lost cause and he could end up beign a solid palyer.

 

[mgteich]

It is one thing to say that OLB is our greatest need. It is another to identify a player that Belichick would be willing to trade up for in the 1st to meet that need.

I don't think that this will happen for anyone. Miller will not be available. For me, the only other player is Quinn and he is worth more as a 4-3 DE and will be drafted with such a value.

I would like to see an OLB in the first 40. Even that is not a lock by any means.

Theis is a really good draft for DE's and DT's. I'm not saying that we should not take one or 2. I think that we can get quality players in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. But with Warren coming back and the addition of Stroud, I don't think it is our most pressing need.

The most pressing need is OLB. This is the position that we need to take one of the best, even if it means a trade up. Then we can take another later along with OL and DE.

BTW, Deaderick did some really good things as a rookie. But he was a rookie and needed to be put in his place. BB did that by suspending him and making him inactive for a game. That does not mean that he is lost cause and he could end up beign a solid palyer.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

So in principle we could be set with Brace at LDE, Wilfork at NT, and Warren at RDE?

Obviously, that wouldn't preclude drafting a guy who is hoped to be starting quality at RDE, especially if he also projects to be useful on passing downs.

At the moment it's safest to say NE has a likely starting trio of Warren - Wilfork - TBD. Whether TBD is currently with the team, in free agency limbo awaiting a CBA or court ordered return to work, anxiously waiting to be drafted, sitting disgruntled on another roster awaiting a CBA to allow trades ... who can know? Brace did enough last season to provide some degree of confidence in him as a reserve or part time starter. Deadrick showed reserve potential, and poor judgement. Love flashed some reserve NT potential. Richard had a good preseason with year two improvement before going on IR. Pryor took a step back, which may have been injury related. Cohen, Favorite, Stroud - warm bodies until they can get into camp and show us different. Wright I expect back, despite gloomy predictions otherwise. Weston is an enigma.

The draft will add to this mix. Free agency, CBA/Courts willing, will likely add. We patiently await.