The DL- who stays - who goes, when we draft.

[PATSNUTme]

With all the discussion of getting a top DE in this years draft, almost like it's a priority, here are the current DL's that patriots now have. They will probably only keep 8 on the regular season roster, maybe 7.

The top DL's are, T. Warren, G Warren, Wilfork, Stroud,Brace, Deaderick, Wright,Pryor.

Then we have Richard, Cohen, Favorite, Prior and Weston (IR last year) . Weston is loaded with talent and potential if the light comes on for him.

So, who goes if we draft 1 or 2 DE's? Wright could be done if his head is not well. So who do we draft and who's place do they take?

It's a lot easier when talking about OLB. But the DL does not look all that bad if we get OLB's to pressure and set the edge.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Your observationis very apt.

While I always favor a meat-and-potatoes draft of linemen, it isn't really necessary for THIS particular draft.

On the Defenive line talented youngsters abound. Brace, Pryor, Deadrick Wright have several starts and others have reserve stints. Manwhile the first teamers of G. Warren, Wilfork and T Warren are all former first round picks and/or Probowlers.

The similar condition applies on the Offensive line. We have Light, Mankins, Koppen, Volmer, former Probowlers; and also Kaczur, Connelly, LeVoir, fomer starters; and also Wendell, Ohrnberger, Manieri, Ojinnaka as reserves.

The cupboard is not really bare, on either line.

 

[capetide]

Your observationis very apt.

While I always favor a meat-and-potatoes draft of linemen, it isn't really necessary for THIS particular draft.

On the Defenive line talented youngsters abound. Brace, Pryor, Deadrick Wright have several starts and others have reserve stints. Manwhile the first teamers of G. Warren, Wilfork and T Warren are all former first round picks and/or Probowlers.

The similar condition applies on the Offensive line. We have Light, Mankins, Koppen, Volmer, former Probowlers; and also Kaczur, Connelly, LeVoir, fomer starters; and also Wendell, Ohrnberger, Manieri, Ojinnaka as reserves.

The cupboard is not really bare, on either line.

Being"former starters" on the O-line does not imply quality. We can use an upgrade for Kaczur (Doesn't anyone remember how many people here we calling for his head every time a speed rusher blew by him and creamed Brady?) Or the way the interior of the O-line was blown up the last 2 playoff games? ) We don't have "Light". We may or may not have Mankins. Neal is gone. The center position cant handle bullrushers. The cupboard may not be bare but its not overflowing either.

 

[Peachhead]

As you said, Wright is questionable to return. I say if he comes back or is unsure, we make the decision for him. I'm not seriously disappointed in his play, but he IS a sub-rusher. This move is primarily in deference to his health. But also keeps in mind that he's just a sub-rusher. The scheme can be adjusted to compensate.

Pryor - He showed some serious flashes as rookie. Then very little since. It's been a few years now. If he had (or was able) to continue on his early trajectory we wouldn't have much of a need at the position now. Unfortunately he plateaued well short of what we need.

Stroud is a possibility. He's a stopgap by design. Fill the gap and he becomes redundant.

G. Warren - see above, but I consider him much safer to stay than Stroud.

Brace is officially on notice. His development is slow and disappointing.

Then we have Richard, Cohen, Favorite, Prior and Weston (IR last year) . Weston is loaded with talent and potential if the light comes on for him.

All of the above guys (except Weston and Love who you didn't mention) are proven jags and can be replaced by someone with untapped potential. Weston and Love haven't had enough opportunity to prove anything, positive or negative, so I wouldn't give up on them yet.

(...and yes, I am a heartless bastid)

 

[Urgent]

The top DL's are, T. Warren, G Warren, Wilfork, Stroud,Brace, Deaderick, Wright,Pryor.

Then we have Richard, Cohen, Favorite, Prior and Weston (IR last year) . Weston is loaded with talent and potential if the light comes on for him.

Locks:Wilfork

Likely:
Ty Warren - but injury concerns and high salary - 90%
G Warren - a free agent, performed well, maybe a toss-up with Stroud - 65%
Wright - performs well in spurts, but significant injury - 65%
Brace - showed improvement, played 13 games - 65%
Stroud - could be the retirement lineman - 60%
Pryor - was getting playing time, played well two games before missing 7 - 50%
Assume four from this group.

Bubble:
Deaderick - up and down rookie year, played a lot in the playoff loss
Weston - like a rookie, has the measurables
Richard - training camp fodder
Cohen - same
Richard - same

So, I would guess:
Wilfork + four of the likely's + 2 rookies or bubblers

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

With all the discussion of getting a top DE in this years draft, almost like it's a priority, here are the current DL's that patriots now have. They will probably only keep 8 on the regular season roster, maybe 7.

The top DL's are, T. Warren, G Warren, Wilfork, Stroud,Brace, Deaderick, Wright,Pryor.

Then we have Richard, Cohen, Favorite, Prior and Weston (IR last year) . Weston is loaded with talent and potential if the light comes on for him.

So, who goes if we draft 1 or 2 DE's? Wright could be done if his head is not well. So who do we draft and who's place do they take?

It's a lot easier when talking about OLB. But the DL does not look all that bad if we get OLB's to pressure and set the edge.

Gerard Warren is UFA.

Weston is no listed on the unofficial Patriots Football Weekly roster, which may or may not mean anything.

As for the rest, competition is good, let the chips fall where they may.

 

[VJCPatriot]

There are only 2 guys who have proven they can be starters to me:
1. Vince Wilfork
2. Ty Warren

The rest are backups or JAGs. I honestly don't feel any love for G. Warren. He performed at stop gap levels, no more than that.

Stroud is the guy who I have an eye on who could be the starter at RDE until we get a rookie understudy who is ready to step in fulltime.

The other guys, Weston, Love, Pyror. Are you serious? Backup material at best. Wright is the only sure backup in that pool, when healthy. Brace is a puzzle. I think he has the potential to be more than a backup JAG, but he has only shown flashes at best.

Let's not overvalue the guys we have just because they wear the Pats laundry. The DL can be seriously upgraded in this year's draft and none of the guys we have now are what I'd consider starter level pros outside of Wilfork and Warren. And we're still lacking a Seymour level talent at DE who can demand double teams and make life easier for our OLBs.

 

[MaineMan]

With all the discussion of getting a top DE in this years draft, almost like it's a priority, here are the current DL's that patriots now have. They will probably only keep 8 on the regular season roster, maybe 7.

The top DL's are, T. Warren, G Warren, Wilfork, Stroud,Brace, Deaderick, Wright,Pryor.

Then we have Richard, Cohen, Favorite, Prior and Weston (IR last year) . Weston is loaded with talent and potential if the light comes on for him.

So, who goes if we draft 1 or 2 DE's? Wright could be done if his head is not well. So who do we draft and who's place do they take?

It's a lot easier when talking about OLB. But the DL does not look all that bad if we get OLB's to pressure and set the edge.

Well, we don't really "have" G. Warren right now since he's an unsigned UFA.

As to the rest:

Ty Warren (1st) - 6'5"/300, IR'd "starting" LDE - Just turned 30 and would be embarking on his 9th season. Signed trough 2014. Unless he's not coming back from his injury, I'd expect him to more or less resume his role in the base 30-front.

Wilfork (1st) - 6'2"/325, starting NT - Turns 30 in Nov. during his 8th season. Signed thru 2015. No question here.

Stroud (1st, JAX) - 6'6"/310, ? - Turns 33 in June (same age as G.Warren), enters the 11th season of a pretty good 4-3DT career and one decent season at RDE in the Bills' 3-4. Signed thru 2013. Size similarities to Seymour aside, I'd project him as the alternate starter at both 30-front DE positions unless he fails miserably in camp.

Brace (2nd) - 6'3"/328, ? - Turns 25 in Dec in his 3rd season. Signed thru 2013. NT-size, has played a couple of roles including DT in 40-fronts as a rookie but mostly as Ty Warren's temporary replacement at LDE in the 30-front in 2010. Play has improved a bit, but he's yet to accomplish "great things". It's difficult to project his continuing role if we reduce the usage of 40-fronts in favor of a strengthened, classic 30-front.

Wright (UDFA) - 6'4"/295, utility reserve/sub-rusher (DT/DE) - Just turned 29, entering his 7th season. Signed thru 2013. I'd expect him to continue in his role, UNLESS, he's not healthy, OR a couple of he younger guys clearly out perform him in camp.

Deaderick (7th) - 6'4"/305, utility reserve/sub-rusher (DE) - Turns 24 in Aug. Signed thru 2014. Showed significant early promise in that "Mike Wright" role as a rookie, but also earned a serious demerits from BB for unknown reasons toward the end of the season. Possibly insurance for Wright, but also possibly expendable.

Pryor (6th) - 6'1"/310, 40-front DT/sub-rusher (interior) - Turns 25 in June, entering his 3rd season. Signed thru 2013. Continued to show modest promise in 2010, but his size fairly limits him to a 40-front sub-package role in BB's schemes. Might be a second option replacement for Wright (behind Deaderick). Otherwise, might be expendable if 40-front use is reduced significantly.

Love (UDFA) - 6'1"/315, 40-front DT. Turns 25 in June. Seemed to exceed expectations a bit in limited emergency replacement action toward the end of 2010. With a possible reduction in 40-front sub-package personnel coming, he's on the bubble with everyone else, but probably has just as much chance to be the one who sticks (and probably only one will).

Cohen (7th, DET) - 6'3"/274 - Journeyman 4-3 DT, dire emergency/injury roster body. No more a permanent fixture than Louis Leonard was.

Favorite (UDFA CAR) - 6'1"/317 - 40-front DT. Minor training camp/practice squad body now on his 8th team (not including UFL Hartford) entering his 3rd NFL season.

Richard (7th) - 6'3"/303 - IR'd after 2010 camp (injury undisclosed, AFAIK), spent '09 on the P/S where the Pats thought enough of him to double his P/S minimum salary to keep him. Signed thru 2012 (on a 1-year ERFA minimum tender). Unclear what his role might be (if any), except perhaps as yet another "Wright Role" sub-rusher. Very probably just another camp body at this point.

Weston (7th) - 6'5"/315 - On PUP BEFORE 2010 camp (injury undisclosed, AFAIK), so has never had a full-go practice with the Pats other than OTAs. Has the size for 34 DE in BB's scheme. Primarily a reserve DT for Georgia who did show consistent production getting into the backfield. Total unknown beyond that.
--------
That's 12, two of whom are almost certainly gone at the end of camp (Cohen and Favorite), if not before camp. Two are untested IR carryovers (Richard and Weston).

Love, Pryor, Deaderick and Wright (along with possibly Richard and Weston) are probably competing for (at most) two spots: utility reserve/sub-rusher and 40-front sub-package DT.

So, we're down to:
Wilfork - guaranteed
Warren (if healthy)
Wright (if healthy)
Stroud - not 100% guaranteed
Brace - not 100% guaranteed
..... and really only five current guys, all late-rounders (two untested) competing for three spots.

One of the open spots goes to a 1st-round 34 DE. But there's certainly room on the 80-man camp roster for another body or three to compete for the final 53-man spots and a P/S spot. I think only Richard and Weston would still have P/S eligibility left out of the current group, since all the others had at least nine regular season games "active" last season. And there's always a possibility that someone steps up and dislodges Brace or Stroud.

I really don't see a problem here with bringing in a couple more late-round guys to compete for reserve, specialty roles - roster-end spots.

 

[Seneschal2]

The top DL's are, T. Warren, G Warren, Wilfork, Stroud,Brace, Deaderick, Wright,Pryor.

1) Wright is a major health concern. Why risk his future.

2) Deaderick was suspended in January as the Pats were preparing for the playoffs. What, he didn't get the memo?

I'd start with those two as replaceable, then weed out the rest. There will be room for (at least) two-maybe three DL when we finally reach the competition stage.

 

[Sciz]

1) Wright is a major health concern. Why risk his future.

Because he said he's planning to be back for training camp when/if it starts and is the best pass-rusher on the DL?

 

[AzPatsFan]

Being"former starters" on the O-line does not imply quality. We can use an upgrade for Kaczur (Doesn't anyone remember how many people here we calling for his head every time a speed rusher blew by him and creamed Brady?) Or the way the interior of the O-line was blown up the last 2 playoff games? ) We don't have "Light". We may or may not have Mankins. Neal is gone. The center position cant handle bullrushers. The cupboard may not be bare but its not overflowing either.

Former starters on the Carolina Panthers may mean next to nothing; but starters on a 14-2 club won't hide mediocrity. Kaczur was merely good enough to start at Right and once at left Tackle on three Superbowl Clubs. He is still young and not exactly chopped liver... Neal IMHO was a probowl quality Guard when healthy, which recently wasn't often enough. Koppen still played and started on a 14-2 club.

Light will be a FA after the NEXT season, not before, so will Mankins, who is franchised. What's with we don't have them, baloney?

 

[Seneschal2]

Because he said he's planning to be back for training camp when/if it starts and is the best pass-rusher on the DL?

Oh, I didn't get that memo -- thanks for sharing.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Gerard Warren is UFA.

Weston is no listed on the unofficial Patriots Football Weekly roster, which may or may not mean anything.

As for the rest, competition is good, let the chips fall where they may.

1. G. Warren is listed on the roster.
2. Weston was a 7th rounder last year was put on IR. To my knowledge he was not released. But maybe the light did not come on and he was.

The point being is, why is DE such a pressing need (meaning 1st round)? It seems to me that getting a top OLB or 2 is the pressing need. Having the OLB position improved can lead to improved play with the DE's that we have.
Not saying we should not add one in this deep draft in the other rounds.

 

[MaineMan]

Former starters on the Carolina Panthers may mean next to nothing; but starters on a 14-2 club won't hide mediocrity. Kaczur was merely good enough to start at Right and once at left Tackle on three Superbowl Clubs. He is still young and not exactly chopped liver... Neal IMHO was a probowl quality Guard when healthy, which recently wasn't often enough. Koppen still played and started on a 14-2 club.

Light will be a FA after the NEXT season, not before, so will Mankins, who is franchised. What's with we don't have them, baloney?

Umm, Kaczur will turn 32 on July 28, just about the start of camp. His effectiveness was indeed deteriorating in '08 and '09 and he's just spent (effectively) a year on IR. He's already been asked to take a pay cut and refused.

Neal officially retired as of 3/3/11, after his doctors advised him that his next shoulder injury would require "drastic" surgical repair.

Light IS an unrestricted FA (as of the end of the 2010 league year in early March) and is currently unsigned.

Mankins is "franchised", but there's no guarantee in the current bargaining climate with the courts now involved that franchise tags are even valid.

So, y'know, what's with "we have them"? Prosciutto!

 

[PATSNUTme]

1) Wright is a major health concern. Why risk his future.

2) Deaderick was suspended in January as the Pats were preparing for the playoffs. What, he didn't get the memo?

I'd start with those two as replaceable, then weed out the rest. There will be room for (at least) two-maybe three DL when we finally reach the competition stage.

Deaderick was suspended for all of 2 days. It was a lesson sent ot him by BB. He played well most of the year for a rookie. We should cut him because of that minor suspension? I don't think so.

 

[Metaphors]

With all the discussion of getting a top DE in this years draft, almost like it's a priority, here are the current DL's that patriots now have. They will probably only keep 8 on the regular season roster, maybe 7.

The top DL's are, T. Warren, G Warren, Wilfork, Stroud,Brace, Deaderick, Wright,Pryor.

Then we have Richard, Cohen, Favorite, Prior and Weston (IR last year) . Weston is loaded with talent and potential if the light comes on for him.

So, who goes if we draft 1 or 2 DE's? Wright could be done if his head is not well. So who do we draft and who's place do they take?

It's a lot easier when talking about OLB. But the DL does not look all that bad if we get OLB's to pressure and set the edge.

Excellent thread. The "trade down and collect picks" crowd usually don't indicate where the roster spots are coming from. I think a similar discussion would be interesting at other positions. My thoughts:

- Wilfork is an obvious lock at NT
- TWarren is a lock if he is healthy (have to assume he is)
- Pryor is a cheap option with a defined role that he does well. No reason to replace
- Brace has unique size and corresponding position flexibility

That leaves 3-4 spots left and doesn't restrict any draft options for the Pats (besides a starting caliber NT which this draft really doesn't have anyway). Stroud, Wright, Deaderick and Love are at the front of the class...but a day 1 or 2 pick on the DL will necessarily knock one of them out of the mix barring injury.

Since I'm mocking Cam Jordan to the Pats, that is bad news for Wright. People mocking Wilkerson have to dispose of either Stroud or Deaderick. These tradeoffs make the decisions harder than drafting a RB or OLB into essentially an open roster spot.

 

[MaineMan]

1. G. Warren is listed on the roster.
2. Weston was a 7th rounder last year was put on IR. To my knowledge he was not released. But maybe the light did not come on and he was.

The point being is, why is DE such a pressing need (meaning 1st round)? It seems to me that getting a top OLB or 2 is the pressing need. Having the OLB position improved can lead to improved play with the DE's that we have.
Not saying we should not add one in this deep draft in the other rounds.

Is that the same roster that had George Bussey listed at 265 lbs for the better part of a year (after weighing in at the Combine around 305)?

G. Warren was signed to a one-year veteran minimum deal during draft weekend 2010. Unless the Pats extended him or re-signed him before 3/5/11 (and didn't publish that info), Warren is an unsigned, unrestricted FA, so we really don't "have" him, regardless what that roster says.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Is that the same roster that had George Bussey listed at 265 lbs for the better part of a year (after weighing in at the Combine around 305)?

G. Warren was signed to a one-year veteran minimum deal during draft weekend 2010. Unless the Pats extended him or re-signed him before 3/5/11 (and didn't publish that info), Warren is an unsigned, unrestricted FA, so we really don't "have" him, regardless what that roster says.

Ok I did just look a Miguels pages and G.Warren is not there, so he's out for now.

Weston is still shown and signed through 2011.

 

[MaineMan]

Ok I did just look a Miguels pages and G.Warren is not there, so he's out for now.

Weston is still shown and signed through 2011.

I had Weston listed on my roster spreadsheet as signing a 4-yr deal on 7/21/10 and then verified that on Rotoworld's contract listings (which are usually pretty good). But, then I noticed on my spreadsheet that he'd been officially "waived/injured" on 8/22/10 which I think may have voided that original contract. If so, then after he cleared waivers, he would have been (temporarily) an unrestricted FA and he would need to have been resigned to a new contract before being put on IR. That would explain the 2011 contract-end you saw.

So, others who seem like they should be missing from Miguel's pages would include:

Light, Ojinnaka

Tracy White

Taylor, Morris, Faulk

Brandon McGowan

Shayne Graham

Anybody else?

 

[MaineMan]

Deaderick was suspended for all of 2 days. It was a lesson sent ot him by BB. He played well most of the year for a rookie. We should cut him because of that minor suspension? I don't think so.

Wasn't Deaderick also less frequently activated during the 2nd half of the season? If so, the situation might have been something more than a "minor suspension".