The Day the Offense Died

[PromisedLand]

My question is, if McDaniels playcalling is so bad, why doesn't BB do something about it? Or did he suddenly forget everything he knew about football?

 

[Stokes]

Lets call off the season then. I wasnt aware that throughout an entire season one screen pass decides whether or not we can win a championship.

The manic depressive nature of this board is ridiculous. We won the game. There were 2 results possible yesterday, a win or a lose. We got the good one.
Yet somehow for reasons I cannot understand fans here decide that since they didnt like everything about the WIN it must be a crushing blow, and must mean doom for the future.
There are tons of examples, but how is this different than almost losing to Houston or worse than LOSING to the Patrick Ramsey-led Skins in 2003, or losing to Miami in 2004?

We won the game.

Amen. That play would have gone for exactly 0 yards if Colvin breaks down and makes the tackle instead of overrunning the play. Don't get me wrong, I thought Rosie played well yesterday (and was getting held OBVIOUSLY most of the game in pass rush), but people need to realize one missed tackle doesn't mean this is not a championship level team.

I was happy with the playcalling yesterday, especially seeing them get back to running screens later in the game. People love to nitpick about the offensive calls, but to me the execution is much more important. For example, imagine if Dillon gets stuffed on any or all of his 3 TD runs. People would be going nuts that McDaniels called a run against the Detroit goalline set instead of calling play action passes.

 

[Stokes]

I still am a very strong advocate of utilizing play action on first down when you get to around the opposing 10-15 yard line, or even in closer. McDaniels rarely,if ever, has done it...Other teams do it very succesfully, and now we have the runing bakcs that would cause opposing teams to buy into the play action fake...but we just dont use it.

I'm a big fan of play action anywhere on the field, especially since Brady gives such a good fake. Seems to me the Pats have been using more play action the past few weeks, whereas they weren't earlier in the year. I just don't see McDaniels as a problem, but hey, if you're that against the guy, maybe we can bring back Ernie Zampese.

 

[JoeSixPat]

if you're that against the guy, maybe we can bring back Ernie Zampese.

Obviously you're new around here Stokes... NEM, as is common knowledge to some of the veteran posters around here, IS Ernie Zampese, so actually there's nothing he'd like more

 

[Stokes]

Obviously you're new around here Stokes... NEM, as is common knowledge to some of the veteran posters around here, IS Ernie Zampese, so actually there's nothing he'd like more

Ahh, its all making sense now. Question for Ernie, um I mean NEM though, who would you consider the best OC in the NFL, and how many OCs coaching right now in the NFL would you take over McDaniels?

 

[cstjohn17]

I agree. It seems the Pats can only on occassion find weak spots in a defense and exploit them. They did it big time in the vikings game. They've done it off and on. and when they're rolling in the spread formation they decide to go power run with double tight end and it nets very little. save those plays for 3 and 1, not 1st and 10 or 2nd and 10. save them for the goal line.

they have a huge fixation with the double tight end set and seem to stubborn in making themselves into a power running team. they are not a power running team.

they need to acknowledge and admit the offense is so much better in the spread formation with single back set.

I agree, I don't like the two TE set as our primary offense, 3 WRs seems to work better. I haven't been a fan or our offense to date, it seems inconsistent and every play seems to be a life and death struggle. I think they are improving and they have Brady, that alone gives them a chance. He has had to do a lot on his own, personally I rate our WRs in the bottom third of the league. Across the board TEs, WRs, RB, OL, and QB have not been consistent.

I really believe that in order for the team to win in the playoffs they will have to be playing a complementry game. Offense, Defense and Special Teams all performing at a high level. I don't think they are good enough in any of the units to have an off game. So far we haven't been able to put it all together, the next 4 weeks should give us a better guage.

 

[Rob0729]

Ahh, its all making sense now. Question for Ernie, um I mean NEM though, who would you consider the best OC in the NFL, and how many OCs coaching right now in the NFL would you take over McDaniels?

From my experience with NEM, it might be easier to ask what OCs he wouldn't taken over McDaniels. I'm guessing that would be none.

I can understand his and others frustration with him at points this season, but I still don't see how you can blame anything from yesterday on him. I thought he called a pretty good game. The execution wasn't there at times, but I thought we moved the ball at will as long as we didn't turn over the ball.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

There's plenty to criticize about my comments, though they reflect how I felt watching this game. I usually like to digest a game for 24 hours before forming an opinion, and probably should have in this case too.

yeah, your probably right that you were overly critical in your original post, but I think you can be excused because it was a frustrating game to watch and, as another poster observed, Championship teams don't give up third and twenty-something conversions to 2--9 teams...

i do agree with you that TB is carrying the team. I also agree that the playcalling has been suspect (not just yesterday) and personally feel that we have looked confused too often on offense this season (most notably in the second half of the jets game), leading me to conclude that Belichick will peform his usual unemotional analysis of all the parts of the team and bring on a new Offensive coordinator in the offseason...

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Another classic NEM thread, lot's of chest beating ignorance and personal attacks, followed by claims of personal attacks against the self appointed Messiah of Patriots' Football. Monte Kiffin thinks Brady can pitch a ball outside the numbers, but then he is an NFL defensive coordinator and must be an idiot as stated in the NEM dictionary of all things NEM. Josh McDaniels doesn't run the spread offense on every down because he is an idiot, too bad that offense has it's advantages and disadvantages, except in in the NEM LOVE HIM SOME NEM book of self congratulations and delusional football. Mike Martz is the only coordinator I've ever seen NEM speak well of, but if he ever coached on this team he'd be an automatic idiot, because he would call one play that didn't work, and NEM would begin screaming about the play NEM would have called off the NEM 3x5 card of football terms I think I know. NEM, you are the message board equivalent of MacGuire and Theisman in the broadcast booth together. Isn't it time for another of your Red Foxx heart attack routines?

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Brady definitely is better out of the spread formation with the one back set. i think they proved that on the last two scoring drives against the lions.

there is evidence enough to go with brady is comfortable with.

what's different about this year and last aside form personnel?


they can run the ball this year and want to be a power team.

last year they had no running game and were forced to pass psreading out the offense.

 

[PonyExpress]

Another classic NEM thread, lot's of chest beating ignorance and personal attacks, followed by claims of personal attacks against the self appointed Messiah of Patriots' Football. Monte Kiffin thinks Brady can pitch a ball outside the numbers, but then he is an NFL defensive coordinator and must be an idiot as stated in the NEM dictionary of all things NEM. Josh McDaniels doesn't run the spread offense on every down because he is an idiot, too bad that offense has it's advantages and disadvantages, except in in the NEM LOVE HIM SOME NEM book of self congratulations and delusional football. Mike Martz is the only coordinator I've ever seen NEM speak well of, but if he ever coached on this team he'd be an automatic idiot, because he would call one play that didn't work, and NEM would begin screaming about the play NEM would have called off the NEM 3x5 card of football terms I think I know. NEM, you are the message board equivalent of MacGuire and Theisman in the broadcast booth together. Isn't it time for another of your Red Foxx heart attack routines?

It is wrong to automatically discredit fans who find fault with the Pats' offense by association with NEM. Here is ProFootballWeekly's analysis (Vol.XXI, No. 21/Dec. 4, 2006): "because the Patriots have been breaking in so many new players on the offensive side of the ball this season, they made the decision to make the offense extremely simple and basic. As a result, we hear that when opposing defenses have been able to shut down something that the Pats are trying to do, New England has had a difficult time making adjustments because it is limited by the number of plays available to call. With a new receiving corps that opposing defenses haven't respected, a new running back [Maroney] who hasn't run well in a one back backfield and with injuries disrupting the right side of the offensive line, the Patriots struggle to establish a rhythm at times offensively."

There is nothing outrageous about PFW's objective assessment, and it meshes with many observations made on this site.

 

[Rob0729]

Actually, even on the fumble, I was pissed because I thought it was a perfect time for a play action call./..The defense was looking for the running play, off tackle, because they have a book on McDaniels now. He repeats himself time after time after time.

Blame the player for losing the ball, but it would not have happened with a play action call instead of that damned , "here we come" running play.

The interception pissed me off too..and yes, blame Brady for a bad pass...

But I have said this all season. for whatver reason, maybe it's mental, maybe it's physical, Brady is having a very,. very hard time with that particulart route, and he has either been over the head of receivers, down at their ankles, or intercepted.. I think he has a mental block and his arm is tightening up on release. Am I right? I dont know, but that is what I see.

Instead of that damned out route, Brady excels, EXCELS, at inside routes, particularly crossings and quick slants, and McDaniels has a problem with those, too.

When that pass was intercepted, I yelled at the screen, "Damn you McDaniels, STOP CALLING THOSE QUICK OUT ROUTES. BRADY CANT THROW THEM ANYMORE. ARE YOU TOO FRICKIN BLIND TO SEE IT?"

And, as far as moving the ball at will...hell no...we had ONE long drive in the game, ONE..... we had many 2, 3 and 4 play drives lthat went no where.

Wasn't Brady intercepted on a comeback route? That's not a quick out route. Definitely not a quick slant. To me, that play failed because Caldwell got boxed out of his route where he was supposed to run a curl and Brady threw to where he should have been rather than looking to see where he was. Brady didn't see that Caldwell was not going to be able to complete his route and Caldwell allowed the defender to get on the wrong side of him.

I may be wrong, but this curl route has been working for the Pats all year. It was poorly executed. I don't blame McDaniels for that.

Again, much of what you described about McDaniels like repeating himself time after time are the same criticism leveled to Charlie Weis in 2002. I still think people discount what McDaniels has to work with when they criticize him.

Unlike Weis in 2003 and 2004, McDaniels doesn't have a bunch of receivers with at least one year in the Patriots' system. He got a bunch of guys who are still learning on the job.

Personally, I have seen a lot of growth by McDaniels over the season. He isn't the best OC in the league, but he is getting better.

 

[Stokes]

Yes, we have been using play action a little more than before, since I started complaing about it's lack of use and, of course, emaild Josh...(I really did)

But, nonetheless, I dont see it being used in some key situations. I believe that a first down call from around the opponents 10 yard line, using play action, can be very successful. McDaniels has yet to use it. For the most part, what he has done when we get around the 10 yard line, or inside it, has reverted back to the running game. Most of the time, when he does that, it leave us with a very desperate third down call, a call in which the opposing defense holds the edge.

I have seen so many successful teams, offensively, go to the play action in the red zone, Denver, Indy, even the Cardinals, and be successful with it.

And now that we have lthe semblance of a running game, its the perfect time to use it. Other teams have a book on McDaniels now , that he goes to power running on 1st and 2nd downs inside the 10 yard line..Its the perfect time, NOW, to start using the play action and make teams start guessing, instead of playing into their hands.

Is that backed up by the numbers? What are the Pats rankings for red zone efficiency? I don't have any numbers (and where's a good place to find those kinds of stats?), but it seems to me like they are doing a pretty good job of getting it into the endzone this year. Also, don't underestimate the value of punching it in on the ground against a goalline set. If you can do it, as Dillon has done a bunch this year, it really makes a statement to the D that you will not be stopped, really demoralizing. As for your other post, I agree Martz is a great offensive mind, though if he gives it to Faulk 30 times in superbowl 36 against that Pats D they probably win that game going away (thanks Mike!). I know Norm Chow is highly thought of, though I haven't followed enough Titans games to really have an opinion about his offense (with the talent he had at USC a chimp could have called the plays and gotten 30 points a game). That's still only 2 guys, is that it, or do you consider most OCs in the NFL superior to McDaniels and didn't feel like writing them all? I'd personally side with it being a very difficult job, and that there are very few guys out there that really do it well.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

It is wrong to automatically discredit fans who find fault with the Pats' offense by association with NEM. Here is ProFootballWeekly's analysis (Vol.XXI, No. 21/Dec. 4, 2006): "because the Patriots have been breaking in so many new players on the offensive side of the ball this season, they made the decision to make the offense extremely simple and basic. As a result, we hear that when opposing defenses have been able to shut down something that the Pats are trying to do, New England has had a difficult time making adjustments because it is limited by the number of plays available to call. With a new receiving corps that opposing defenses haven't respected, a new running back [Maroney] who hasn't run well in a one back backfield and with injuries disrupting the right side of the offensive line, the Patriots struggle to establish a rhythm at times offensively."

There is nothing outrageous about PFW's objective assessment, and it meshes with many observations made on this site.

Sorry PE, you and I may differ, but when NEM gets rolling in a thread I consider it a hijack and no longer yours. Apologies for the apparent broad brush.

 

[PonyExpress]

BOR,
I have started to question my own sanity since a few of my opinions dovetailed with NEM's. Maybe a healthy slap in the face and a bucket of cold water, applied by veteran posters on this board, will bring me back to reality.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

BOR,
I have started to question my own sanity since a few of my opinions dovetailed with NEM's. Maybe a healthy slap in the face and a bucket of cold water, applied by veteran posters on this board, will bring me back to reality.

Always a concern mate! Still, you have a reputation of making an effort to support your analysis with something more substantive than "I'm right, your wrong, have a nice day." Should I find such a line in one of your posts I'll break out the glacier water and winter's morning, gutter dipped cow tail (the potency of both I can attest to :enranged

 

[patpatriot]

I've had 2 angioplasties NEM ...and I still think you are a self-serving, attention-starved, message board-hogging nitwit. So stop with the "feel sorry for me" **** already!

 

[Brownfan80]

NEM, I must point out that during our past squabbles you have never once offered anything more than the NFL.com drivecharts with cherry picked parts of drives to substantiate your claims. You never once offered any of your own 'charts'. You never have backed up your claims with anything more than "I'm right, as usual", which as you can see doesn't work on anyone. It's not just me.

Box is not a trouble maker, for anyone but you, because he simply asks you to back up your claims, which is trouble, since you can't. Or won't.. which I'd never understand why you wouldn't when we're here to discuss football.

You always froth about your limitless football knowledge, but then go ape sh@t when anyone asks you to share that knowledge to back up your statements. That's strange man, strange.

 

[Brownfan80]

I backed up my comments time after time, with detailed descriptions of the progression of plays, what happened, and what , IMO, could have been done instead.... and these were done many time. I cant help it if you choose not to read them, or respond to them.

I already noted that you'd posted the NFL.com playbyplay of cherry picked data, so obviously I did read and acknowledge that fact.

And, as usual, you wont comment on who REALLY hijacked this thread, will you , as has been done to many other threads.

Why do so many of your posts start with 'as usual'?? I don't know that I 'usually' comment on who has 'hijacked' a thread. In fact that phrase has come out of my keyboard-fingers maybe once ever.

And actually I'm not sure at all that anyone 'hijacked' this thread, as it was more or less a McDaniels *****fest from the start. It's just no surprise that you showed up and dug at the OC once again given this opportunity.

Quite frankly, I have enoughconfidence in myself to know when I am right,and if I am wrong, as I have been in some instances and have said so..but of course, you kind of bypass those times, too.

Actually I do remember the one time that you admitted being wrong, but you did it in a way that it was obvious that you did not believe it. You were just being snide. Be realistic about your stance on yourself, at least. Anyone who has EVER read you knows that your stance is: "I'm always right, sometimes it just takes some time to come to light, but in the end I'm always right". That is nearly a verbatim quote, so, if you want I'll find the link to show you.

I dont need all the bullsh!t from you and a couple of your pals who havew chosen to make it a war, by ganging up on me, and destroying this fine forum that Ian has built.

No one is destroying this forum, you melodramatic coot. If you'd simply be open to DISCUSSING your different viewpoint instead of always degrading your posts into "I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG" and name calling, then these 'wars' would never happen at all.

Quite frankly, I dont even need to waste my time responding to you as you, and a few others, have done everything to personallyattack me,ridicule me, and make life hard on me..so quite frankly, I really havent got one damned thing any more to say to you..

Your usual emotional response. It's a tired act NEM, really.

I will be la lfan, I will contine to give my heart to this team, and people like you, BOR and MOLEwis who have been on my case for lmonths now, I dont need to take any more garbage and lies, and crap from any of you.

Box-O-Rocks and MOLewisRocks are two of the best posters on the site. They don't spit lies. They call you on your BS, nothing more, nothing less.

You honestly can't see that people actually have a point about your ways?

Especially BOR who has put your little clan together... and I dont need the sh!@t from you anymore. All I can say, is be careful. Take that for what you want.

NEM please, I was taking you to task long before BOR ever took it upon himself to even speak to you. Give me a break that I'm part of some clan of followers whose only purpose is to make life hard for you. That's silly.

Be careful? Now you're threatening me? Why be coy about it, come out and say what this threat is NEM, have some balls.

I'm not taking it for anything, I'm letting Ian take it for what HE wants.

 

[arrellbee]

Ughh. That play made me throw up in my mouth a little bit. That's when I realized this is a not a championship caliber football team. There's just no excuse for letting the Detroit Lions convert a 3rd and 22 like that.

It was worse than that. After that 3rd down conversion allowed, they had the Lions 1st and 30 and let them get another first down. My goodness.