Talent Level not the issue

[NEPettyOfficer72]

That lineup would be an enormous upgrade over what's out there right now.

hmmmmm

What did Branch, Patten and Givens do outside of New England? hmmmmm.. they were very solid but

 

[Deus Irae]

Thats after he got in his groove the last 5 games, he was just a rookie after all in a BAD offense, I'm just saying

Wright caught more balls in a five game stretch from week 4-8 than he did in the last 5 games of the season.

In other words, you're wrong again. Just saying.

 

[Deus Irae]

You may be right. But I'll reserve judgement until our OL can at least give Brady time.

We can bring this thread back up if our OL does get fixed and these weapons still suck.

*Bookmarked

Not a single one of the questions I asked you is unanswerable right now because of any need to reserve judgment.

 

[Deus Irae]

What did Branch, Patten and Givens do outside of New England? hmmmmm.. they were very solid but

Givens suffered a career ending injury. Branch had injuries, but still had the same kinds of seasons he had for most of his Patriots years. Patten had the second best season of his career in New Orleans, in 2007.

Care to try again, or can you just admit that the talent level is down, and what's left is underperforming?

 

[condon84]

Not a single one of the questions I asked you is unanswerable right now because of any need to reserve judgment.

You made a general assessment on the current state of our receivers lol. What is there to answer?

We'll settle this argument when or if our OL can get their **** together.

 

[n6249c]

Nobody has answered this question: what happened to Solder since last year? He looks totally lost, whiffing on block and just plain getting beaten. Wendell and Connolly were serviceable centers in the past, why not this year?

Biggest problem with this team is, Dave D is no Scar.

 

[Deus Irae]

You made a general assessment on the current state of our receivers lol. What is there to answer?

We'll settle this argument when or if our OL can get their **** together.

There's no argument. There's a series of questions waiting to be answered. Admittedly, the questions pretty much answer themselves, but they are on point with regards to your initial post.

Do you think Gronk is back to being Gronk?

Do you think the 2 second year players are actually on the field despite being listed as inactive?

Do you think Hooman has improved significantly as a player since last year?

Do you think LaFell has improved significantly as a player since last year?

Do you think Wright is really a good blocker despite all the reports?

Do you think Amendola is back to 100% pre-injury Amendola?


Unless you believe in miracles (re: Hooman and LaFell), you don't need to see the OL playing well to answer any of those.

 

[BelichicksHoodie]

Offensive line just isn't good enough and the linebackers are painfully slow. The only way you can cover these weaknesses are through coaching, and the coaching this season has been abysmal. Andy Reid ran circles around Belichick and Co. on Monday night, it was shocking to watch.

 

[condon84]

There's no argument. There's a series of questions waiting to be answered. Admittedly, the questions pretty much answer themselves, but they are on point with regards to your initial post.

Do you think Gronk is back to being Gronk?

Do you think the 2 second year players are actually on the field despite being listed as inactive?

Do you think Hooman has improved significantly as a player since last year?

Do you think LaFell has improved significantly as a player since last year?

Do you think Wright is really a good blocker despite all the reports?

Do you think Amendola is back to 100% pre-injury Amendola?


Unless you believe in miracles (re: Hooman and LaFell), you don't need to see the OL playing well to answer any of those.

Why can't I reserve judgement until our OL is fixed?

Why is there a rush to judgement on our receivers when we all know everything starts with our OL?

 

[Boston D Party]

The offensive line was tremendously improved Monday night. Still not very good, but not so bad as to be solely at fault for the loss.

We have enough talent catching passes when they're all playing. Tom desperately needed Dobson/Thompkins on the field Monday. Case in point: on one of the big 3rd-and-2 plays, when every single lineman was beaten 1-on-1, Tom found a spot and stepped up, and even though he probably could've run for a first down, Edelman had a step on his man. Tom threw, Edelman couldn't reel in an imperfect pass. If it was a 6'4, 220lb receiver with speed, it would've been an easy completion for a critical first down in the game.

I love Edelman and respect the hell out of him. But you can't coach size and speed, neither of which Edelman has, and both of which Dobson and Thompkins have.

tl;dr Wait until we actually PLAY our most talented pass catchers before attempting to discredit them.

 

[Deus Irae]

Why can't I reserve judgement until our OL is fixed?

Why is there a rush to judgement on our receivers when we all know everything starts with our OL?

Why can't you answer questions that are easily answered right now?

Gronk's going to get better. So, you waiting to answer the "How is Gronk NOW" will lead to a misleading answer.

Amendola may start moving better. So, you waiting to answer "How is Amendola NOW" may lead to a misleading answer.

"Is Wright any good as a blocking TE?" doesn't need the OL to be playing well to answer.

The kids aren't on the field. That one's not even a matter of interpretation. They've been inactive.

Even if you think it's possible that there was an offseason miracle for both Hooman and LaFell, the other questions are all easily answerable.

 

[n6249c]

The offensive line was tremendously improved Monday night. Still not very good, but not so bad as to be solely at fault for the loss....

Nonsense. Brady threw one INT when they held eight players back to block five rushers. Gronk released late, but still that shows the coaching staff had no confidence in the O line. And the result of that play was an INT. So much for blaming poor protection for Brady's struggles. Edelman broke off his route earlier than Brady expected, but if you look at the replay there were several DBs already camping out before Brady even threw the ball.

 

[condon84]

Why can't you answer questions that are easily answered right now?

Gronk's going to get better. So, you waiting to answer the "How is Gronk NOW" will lead to a misleading answer.

Amendola may start moving better. So, you waiting to answer "How is Amendola NOW" may lead to a misleading answer.

"Is Wright any good as a blocking TE?" doesn't need the OL to be playing well to answer.

The kids aren't on the field. That one's not even a matter of interpretation. They've been inactive.

Even if you think it's possible that there was an offseason miracle for both Hooman and LaFell, the other questions are all easily answerable.

Because your questions have to be looked at in context.

Our OL is not blocking well. It affects Brady, his ability to throw accurate balls, go through his progression.

It also may affect our game planning and the reason why KT and AB were inactive (for whatever crazy reason McD has).

Everything has to be looked at in context of how ineffective our OL is.

That's why it's silly to answer your questions and declaring these guys suck.

 

[goheels22002]

But you think every one of the 65 players on the Patriots is going to the Hall of Fame...

Okay, not all. But how many do you realistically think a) go to the Patriots HOF, and b) the NFL HOF?

My count is 7 and 2 (and maybe a third in the unlikely event of six or seven consecutive healthy seasons) on the current roster, plus Belichick.

 

[Deus Irae]

Because your questions have to be looked at in context.

Our OL is not blocking well. It affects Brady, his ability to throw accurate balls, go through his progression.

It also may affect our game planning and the reason why KT and AB were inactive (for whatever crazy reason McD has).

Everything has to be looked at in context of how ineffective our OL is.

That's why it's silly to answer your questions and declaring these guys suck.

You don't need context to know whether or not Gronk is 100%. You can see it by watching him.

You don't need context to know whether or not Amendola is 100% pre-Amendola. You can see it by watching him.

You don't need context to know whether or not Thompkins and Dobson are active. You can just look at the inactive lists

You don't need context to know if Wright is a good blocker. You can see it by watching.


Even if I buy the need to see a better offensive line before determining whether or not two players who've been in the NFL for years (Hooman, LaFell) have made an incredibly unlikely 'super jump' in their games, you are making a perfectly legit claim (OL sucks right now) and using it to avoid answering questions that can be answered without regard to that OL.

 

[condon84]

You don't need context to know whether or not Gronk is 100%. You can see it by watching him.

You don't need context to know whether or not Amendola is 100% pre-Amendola. You can see it by watching him.

You don't need context to know whether or not Thompkins and Dobson are active. You can just look at the inactive lists

You don't need context to know if Wright is a good blocker. You can see it by watching.


Even if I buy the need to see a better offensive line before determining whether or not two players who've been in the NFL for years (Hooman, LaFell) have made an incredibly unlikely 'super jump' in their games, you are making a perfectly legit claim (OL sucks right now) and using it to avoid answering questions that can be answered without regard to that OL.

I'm waiting to agree that our offense is devoid of weapons until our OL is fixed. That's what I'm doing.

Amendola, IMO doesn't look slow. He's been open but Brady doesn't get to go through his progression.

Gronk is not 100% but even at what he is right now, Brady has missed him a few times when he has been open. Again, Brady is jumpy and is anticipating pressure so his balls aren't accurate.

Thomkins and Dobson, from what I can guess, are inactive because McD feels that we don't need receivers to go deep since Brady has no time.

Wright, I was not expecting much if anything this year from him.

LaFell and Hooman, I agree with.

Vereen to me is still one of the top third down backs in the league.

Ridley IMO is still a good back if he's given a chance and some blocking.

Brady is still a great QB if he's given time. This is a guy who made Deion Branch look like a superstar and David Givens an above average WR.

 

[Deus Irae]

Coming off Monday night’s 41-14 loss to the Kansas City Chiefs, Brady was asked if he has enough talent around him for the Patriots to succeed this season.


“We’ll see,” Brady said during his weekly news conference at Gillette Stadium. “We’ll see here in a couple months where we’re at, but we’ve got a lot of football to play. We’re trying to find the things that we do well, and we’re trying to find the things that we don’t do well.

http://nesn.com/2014/10/tom-brady-well-see-if-patriots-have-enough-talent-to-succeed/

 

[Brady6]

Tom Brady, Stevan Ridley, Shane Vereen, Rob Gronkowski, Danny Amendola (healthy), Julian Edelman, Aaron Dobson, Kenbrell Thompkins, Tim Wright, Sebastian Vollmer, Nate Solder, Ryan Wendell, Chandler Jones, Rob Ninkovich, Vince Wilfork, Chris Jones, Dominique Easley, Jerod Mayo, Dont'a Hightower, Jamie Collins, Darrelle Revis, Brandon Browner, Alfonzo Dennard, Logan Ryans, Kyle Arrington (slot), Devin McCourty, Matthew Slater.... and you may disagree and thats fine because we are all entitled to our own opinion but every last one of these guys to me, and this is me talking, are very talented and the ones that I highlighted (remember, just me talking, my opinion) are exceptionally talented when allowed to do what they do and are fully healthy ... so with that being said I do not think it is a talent issue.. I think its more of a mentality issue in the sense that we just can't show up and expect to get a victory, but I think now we understand that we just have to go out and take it and dominate like we are capable of... with an edge and an attitude

Some of the players you listed do not belong:

- Thompkins is a JAG at best; he would not make most 53-man rosters in the NFL.
- Amendola looks to be done, he lost a step or 2 and it is very noticeable on the field, he cannot get open without a designed play to pick off his defender.
- Ryan Wendell being on the list is just a HUH for me.
- Chris Jones is nothing more than a rotational DL.
- Kyle Arrington is average at best.

 

[n6249c]

...
Amendola, IMO doesn't look slow. He's been open but Brady doesn't get to go through his progression.

Gronk is not 100% but even at what he is right now, Brady has missed him a few times when he has been open. Again, Brady is jumpy and is anticipating pressure so his balls aren't accurate.

It's not that Brady doesn't get to go through his progressions, he doesn't even try.

He locks on to the receiver he has predetermined is his primary target and never looks anywhere else.

It's so obvious that the TV announcers were pointing it out a couple of weeks ago, showing replays that highlighted Brady never taking his eyes off one receiver and making a throw that turned out badly (surprise!).

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm waiting to agree that our offense is devoid of weapons until our OL is fixed. That's what I'm doing.

Amendola, IMO doesn't look slow. He's been open but Brady doesn't get to go through his progression.

Gronk is not 100% but even at what he is right now, Brady has missed him a few times when he has been open. Again, Brady is jumpy and is anticipating pressure so his balls aren't accurate.

Thomkins and Dobson, from what I can guess, are inactive because McD feels that we don't need receivers to go deep since Brady has no time.

Wright, I was not expecting much if anything this year from him.

LaFell and Hooman, I agree with.

I'm not sure why that had to be like pulling teeth. So, let's go through it.:

OL - dumpster fire
Gronk - shell of himself, unlike last year when he was in
Thompkins - not playing
Dobson - not playing
Wright - not doing anything, and you didn't expect it

In short, the only area you even had a difference my first post is Amendola, and that's because you're seeing something nobody else is, which is Amendola getting open. Everyone else is seeing that he's not getting open.

To repeat (well, to paraphrase) my initial response: Other than Edelman, Brady doesn't currently have any 'weapons' worth the title.

The talent will get better. Stork will develop. Gronk will look more like himself. Somewhere other players will get it together. But, for now, the Patriots are basically a 2 man offense.