PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Talent Level not the issue

Status
Not open for further replies.
It's not that Brady doesn't get to go through his progressions, he doesn't even try.

He locks on to the receiver he has predetermined is his primary target and never looks anywhere else.

It's so obvious that the TV announcers were pointing it out a couple of weeks ago, showing replays that highlighted Brady never taking his eyes off one receiver and making a throw that turned out badly (surprise!).

Yes, because Tom Brady forgot how to look around the field. Are you arguing he's losing his eye sight?
He knows he has no time.
 
Nobody has answered this question: what happened to Solder since last year? He looks totally lost, whiffing on block and just plain getting beaten. Wendell and Connolly were serviceable centers in the past, why not this year?

Biggest problem with this team is, Dave D is no Scar.

SOLDER
looked absolutely terrible for 3 games. Is that a surprise when Mankins was replaced by Cannon? Solder and Cannon hadn't worked together. Solder was used to his LG doing much more than Cannon. In the KC, Solder was simply overmatched by Hali. It happens. You can't be the better player in every game. Other than the one sack where Hali got the jump on the count, it wasn't anywhere as awful as the first 3 games. If Solder continue to play poorly, he can be moved to RT, or he can be benched. The team has an OK backup OT in Cannon. So, for me, the problem is not at tackle. We have the same 3 as last year, plus Fleming as a #4 OT, if that is ever necessary (and as a blocking TE).

CENTER
Connolly and Wendell ARE serviceable centers this year, as much as they were last year. And Stork has looked OK as our new center. The position needed to be upgraded from Wendell 2013. Connolly was an upgrade. Stork is an upgrade. So, for me, the problem is not at center. We are at least as good as last year at the position.

GUARD
The team decided to replace Mankins and Connolly with Cannon and Devey. WTF! At KC, things were a bit BETTER at OL, in our worst defeat since the Milloy game. Connolly is limited at LG, but he is OK. Fleming is a huge improvement over Devey; so is Wendell. So, for me, this is the problem on the OL. We've replaced the fastly declining (and overpriced) Mankins with Fleming or Wendell. I think that this could work in time, but I am not hopeful at this point. I would note that Belichick has won with street agent OG's, picked up a couple of weeks before starting.

BOTTOM LINE
The weakest position on the offense (and on the team) is RG. That's not a terrible situation. Unfortunately, our 2nd weakest position in downfield WR. Going into into the offseason and later, I thought that TE and S2 would be our weakest position.
 
I'm not sure why that had to be like pulling teeth. So, let's go through it.:

OL - dumpster fire
Gronk - shell of himself, unlike last year when he was in
Thompkins - not playing
Dobson - not playing
Wright - not doing anything, and you didn't expect it

In short, the only area you even had a difference my first post is Amendola, and that's because you're seeing something nobody else is, which is Amendola getting open. Everyone else is seeing that he's not getting open.

To repeat (well, to paraphrase) my initial response: Other than Edelman, Brady doesn't currently have any 'weapons' worth the title.


Like I said, I'll wait until our OL is fixed before making any judgement.

Maybe Brady can go through his progressions and see that Amendola is open.

Or maybe we can game plan and include deep throws to Dobson. At least the intermediate part of the field and involve KT.

Or maybe, just maybe, if Brady wasn't hit as much as he's getting hit, he'd be able to throw more accurately to his receivers.
 
There's no argument. There's a series of questions waiting to be answered. Admittedly, the questions pretty much answer themselves, but they are on point with regards to your initial post.

Do you think Gronk is back to being Gronk?

Do you think the 2 second year players are actually on the field despite being listed as inactive?

Do you think Hooman has improved significantly as a player since last year?

Do you think LaFell has improved significantly as a player since last year?

Do you think Wright is really a good blocker despite all the reports?

Do you think Amendola is back to 100% pre-injury Amendola?


Unless you believe in miracles (re: Hooman and LaFell), you don't need to see the OL playing well to answer any of those.

Great questions.

1) Gronk is not back to being Gronk, and it's usually a year after an ACL that guys round into form, so there's a while before he single-handedly changes a game. If we're fortunate, we'll see some of that in November and December.

2) This is by far the best question you posed, DI. I expand the list to include all ten of them. There are actually 13 2nd year players if you include the PS which brings Boyce into the conversation.

The second-year players: very mixed bag, but that's why I like this team down the road.

The list in order of current contributions: Collins, Ryan, Develin, Dobson, Thompkins, Harmon, Wright, Vellano, Buchanan, Tyms. Quite a group that could all be around in a couple of years.

It's too bad that so much is coming out about immaturity by Dobson who needs to grow up and understand what it means to be a professional football player. But it looks to me like Ryan, Develin, and Collins are core guys for a long time. Dobson can be one as well. Harmon is a question mark , but has the physical tools to be a good safety. Wright and Thompkins are on the third level and could wash out before next season begins.

3) Hooman? He is what he is, and I would park him next to Solder in any game with an edge rusher that can use Solder like a turnstile the way Tamba Hali did on Monday night. Hooman is a decent counterpart to Gronk and Wright.

4) LaFell looked the best we've seen yet against KC and hopefully will emerge as an outside the hash marks receiver to complement Gronk, Edelman and Vereen.

5) Wright as a blocker? Downfield maybe, but certainly not on the edge. It would be nice to see him emerge as an H-back who could reliably run the corner fade route in the Red Zone (if they ever get there again.) I have little confidence right now that he'll make much of a difference this year.

6) Amendola. Sadly, no. Frankly, I think Amendola never fully recovered from that concussion that he suffered on the sideline when he made that diving catch and his head hit the ground and the defender simultaneously late last season. He was knocked into next week. His routes are not sharp, he runs into defenders, and just doesn't look at all like the guy on video from the Rams days, or the Bills game last season. The guy had real skills and got separation, but we're seeing none of that. You know, I don't blame Belichick for bringing him in. You can't predict stuff like this.
 
Perhaps the issue is that the opponents put too many in the box.

But, it is not a matter going through the progressions. Amendola is the slot receiver. There are lots of plays called where he is the #1 or #2 target. He simply hasn't gotten open.

The OL will never look great when the opponents are able to put 8 or 9 in the box. The math just doesn't work.

Maybe Brady can go through his progressions and see that Amendola is open.
 
LaFell has emerged. He is simply not talented enough to be our major downfield threat. That is NOT a knock on him. LaFell is doing his job.

Now we need someone else to do theirs: Amendola, Thompkins and/or Dobson.

4) LaFell looked the best we've seen yet against KC and hopefully will emerge as an outside the hash marks receiver to complement Gronk, Edelman and Vereen.
 
Like I said, I'll wait until our OL is fixed before making any judgement.

Maybe Brady can go through his progressions and see that Amendola is open..

Since Amendola hasn't been open... no, he can't.
 
When your QB has been reprogrammed to be a model, it's problematic

And things really get hosed when the backup is actually better looking
 
LaFell has emerged. He is simply not talented enough to be our major downfield threat. That is NOT a knock on him. LaFell is doing his job.

Now we need someone else to do theirs: Amendola, Thompkins and/or Dobson.


This

The Patriots have a WR2 (Edelman), who's really better suited to be a Swiss army knife than to have a specific role. They have a WR3/WR4 (LaFell), who's playing like a WR3/WR4 getting up to speed. What they don't have is a TE1, a WR1/middle-deep receiver, or a backup TE who is even marginal at both blocking and catching.

If Gronk can get to something like 90%, Dobson can show some legitimate second year improvement and at least one more WR plays to a WR3 level, then they'll at least have a competitive corps.
 
It's not that Brady doesn't get to go through his progressions, he doesn't even try.

He locks on to the receiver he has predetermined is his primary target and never looks anywhere else.

It's so obvious that the TV announcers were pointing it out a couple of weeks ago, showing replays that highlighted Brady never taking his eyes off one receiver and making a throw that turned out badly (surprise!).

I don't agree with this at all. It's known that Brady has on average 2 seconds to release the ball. How is it possible for him to go through his reads in only 2 seconds before taking a hit? It seems like he is "forcing" the ball, but the reality of the situation is he only has 1 option and it's his first read otherwise he takes sack or worse.

LaFell has emerged. He is simply not talented enough to be our major downfield threat. That is NOT a knock on him. LaFell is doing his job.

Now we need someone else to do theirs: Amendola, Thompkins and/or Dobson.

I agree, LaFell is not going to be that down field threat. He's going to catch some balls and sometimes make a play in open space, he is 1 piece of the puzzle. I really have liked what I've seen from LaFell these past 2 games, I hope he can stay consistent and help us late in the season. Why did Carolina get rid of him again? they are hurting pretty badly right now.
 
Amendola acknowledged earlier today - although grudgingly - he had undergone adductor surgery during the offseason to repair the torn groin muscle he suffered last season, and ultimately played with throughout the year.

The belief was Amendola had opted against having that surgery, using the offseason for rest and repair. Only, he did undergo the procedure with the accompanying rehabilitation process at some point during the offseason.

Amendola, however, refused to use that as an excuse.

“It really doesn’t matter anymore, whether I did, or didn’t (have the surgery),” Amendola said, sitting at his locker following practice. “I’m not going to make excuses. I don’t want anything to seem like it’s an excuse.”

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/...ola_admits_to_having_off_season_groin_surgery


"Boom!" Goes the dynamite.
 
This

The Patriots have a WR2 (Edelman), who's really better suited to be a Swiss army knife than to have a specific role. They have a WR3/WR4 (LaFell), who's playing like a WR3/WR4 getting up to speed. What they don't have is a TE1, a WR1/middle-deep receiver, or a backup TE who is even marginal at both blocking and catching.

If Gronk can get to something like 90%, Dobson can show some legitimate second year improvement and at least one more WR plays to a WR3 level, then they'll at least have a competitive corps.

You and I are in basic agreement. As always, I will nitpick a little.

WE NEED 4 WR'a AND 2 TE's
-----------------------------------
DOBSON? - #1 WR who is a downfield threat (Thompkins is a possibility)
EDELMAN - solid #2 receiver, and a swiss army knife
LEFELL - #3 WR (you call him #3/#4; he's as good as any we've had at #3 in awhile)
GRONK - top #1 TE (I think he needs to be at 70%, I think 90% is a bit of a dream)
WRIGHT - #2 TE ( I'm OK with him as a developing player)
SOMEONE ELSE - #4 and a backup (for me, doesn't have to be at a #3 level)

The #5 WR and #3 TE (backups to the backups) are essentially irrelevant. Our base set is a 3WR-1 TE set.
 
Put me in the camp that says it probably doesn't matter what we have until this offensive line is dealt with.
Even if they look to play well this Sunday, does anyone really trust them not to revert back to week #3 at some point down the stretch?
 
Yes, because Tom Brady forgot how to look around the field. Are you arguing he's losing his eye sight?
He knows he has no time.

Except he was doing it before this year. It's just that in the past he had enough margin for error that he could wait for his binky to come open or adjust when he didn't and then look for the next guy. He stopped spreading the ball around in '07 when he got Moss, who could get open almost any time he wanted, and Welker, who could do the same. When Moss left he had Gronk and Welker, and he got so he can't play without locking on to one go-to guy before the ball is even snapped, based on the pre-snap read. That's where things are breaking down, they try to decide what the defense is going to do and if the D crosses them up or wins the battles the results are no good. Now it's showing, but it's been developing over the past few years. Scar retiring was the straw that broke the O line's back and took away the margin for error that was covering it up.

And back to the OP, that's why it's not lack of talent on the WR corp. Used to be that any one of the WRs got open and Brady would get the ball to them, back when the talent was Givens and Patten and Reche and Gaston and Branch and the like. Now it doesn't matter if somebody gets open and Brady isn't already locked on to them. Saw that against KC when Brady tried to force a pass into double coverage on Gronk when Develin was open elsewhere. Reiss blamed on Brady being uncomfortable going through his progression but Gronk is his binky so I think he was locked and loaded before the snap.

Are you arguing he's losing his eye sight?
He knows he has no time.

Not losing his eyesight, but definitely slowing down. Not just his mobility, his speed running the progression is likely also slowing down so he needs more time just when he's getting less, and getting gunshy about taking hits because his aging body doesn't absorb them as well nor heal as quickly. It's time to face it, 37 is old for an NFL QB.
 
Last edited:
Except he was doing it before this year. It's just that in the past he had enough margin for error that he could wait for his binky to come open or adjust when he didn't and then look for the next guy. He stopped spreading the ball around in '07 when he got Moss, who could get open almost any time he wanted, and Welker, who could do the same. When Moss left he had Gronk and Welker, and he got so he can't play without locking on to one go-to guy before the ball is even snapped, based on the pre-snap read. That's where things are breaking down, they try to decide what the defense is going to do and if the D crosses them up or wins the battles the results are no good. Now it's showing, but it's been developing over the past few years. Scar retiring was the straw that broke the O line's back and took away the margin for error that was covering it up.

2007 - 6 receivers (all types) with 20+ catches, 4 receivers with 40+ catches
2009 - 6 receivers with 20+ catches, 2 receivers with 40+ catches
2010 - 6 receivers with 20+ catches, 4 receivers with 40+ catches
2011 - 4 receivers with 20+ catches, 4 receivers with 40+ catches
2012 - 6 receivers with 20+ catches, 5 receivers with 40+ catches
2013 - 7 receivers with 20+ catches, 3 receivers with 40+ catches
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Patriots News 04-19, Countdown To Draft Day
Patriots News 04-19, Countdown To Draft Day
Steve Balestrieri
23 hours ago
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 6 – A Week Before the Draft
TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/13
Patriots News 04-12, What To Watch For In The NFL Draft
MORSE: Pre-Draft Patriots News and Notes
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 5
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 5
Mark Morse
2 weeks ago
Patriots Part Ways with Another Linebacker as Offseason Roster Shake-Up Continues
Patriots News 04-05, Mock Draft 2.0, Patriots Look For OL Depth
MORSE: 18 Game Schedule and Other Patriots Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Mike Vrabel Press Conference at the League Meetings 3/31
Back
Top