So the TC base defense is again starting out 4-3

[Ring 6]

Oh ok. That's fine, perhaps I didn't read carefully enough.


I am a little disappointed that the 4-3 is prominent early. Not so much because I think the 3-4 is a better "Base" defense, but more because I think the 3-3, 2-4, and 1-5 nickel defenses are far better then the 4-2 nickel. We'll be in the nickel at least as much as the base.

It depends on when and against who you are using it.
Whether you call it 3-3, 2-4 or 4-2 is irrelevant if its the same personell. We use LBs are sub package DEs. Does that make it 42 or 24?
The 3-3, which we have used in some cases as a 1st and 10 D, particluarly vs Manning is a compromise of replacing a 34 LB (surprisingly we have done that by removing the OLB in the past) to add a DB, thereby staying big up front to not get gashed by the run.
Of course a 1-5 is restricted to 3rd and long.

I don't think it matters what base we are running with respect to how the sub package will line up.

 

[Deus Irae]

Caserio asked if #Patriots can be called base 4-3 or 3-4, says defensive emphasis is on technique...

https://twitter.com/shalisemyoung/statuses/229260389202935808

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

It depends on when and against who you are using it.
Whether you call it 3-3, 2-4 or 4-2 is irrelevant if its the same personell. We use LBs are sub package DEs. Does that make it 42 or 24?

I disagree here. It's about concepts, the role each player is playing, and the amount of things they could or couldn't do pre and post snap. What, say, Ninkovich is doing in the 4-2 is so different and limited to what he's doing in a 1-5. He's pass rushing every single time in the 4-2. He could be doing anything in the 1-5. It makes the 1-5 way more confusing and dangerous (to the other team) than the 4-2, even though the players on the field are the same. You never want the opposing offense knowing whats going to happen.

I don't think it matters what base we are running with respect to how the sub package will line up.

It would be unconventional to run a 4-3 and a 2-4

 

[Ring 6]

I disagree here. It's about concepts, the role each player is playing, and the amount of things they could or couldn't do pre and post snap. What, say, Ninkovich is doing in the 4-2 is so different and limited to what he's doing in a 1-5. He's pass rushing every single time in the 4-2. He could be doing anything in the 1-5. It makes the 1-5 way more confusing and dangerous (to the other team) than the 4-2, even though the players on the field are the same. You never want the opposing offense knowing whats going to happen.

A 1-5 which is almost never run, would be different, but I was talking about a 42 or 24. You have the same players on the field and it is the same concept, the difference is only in what you chose to call it. At least with the Patriots.

It would be unconventional to run a 4-3 and a 2-4

Not at all. We did it all of last year, but again you are trying to make the 24 and 42 different things, and with the Patriots it is not, because the sub package DEs are called LBs in the base, with the exception of the RDE who would be a LB in a 34 base.

 

[BBass]

The irony of these comments is hilarious to me.
You clearly did not watch games, because what you described never happened. The base D had Ellis or Deaderick at LDE 95% of the time or more.
Maybe you should watch games and not argue based on a video game?


Feel free not to read my posts.





When did the Colts knock us out of the playoffs, and was it in Madden where you put the Ravens in a 43?

I must have missed those players playing for the Patriots.





Maybe I should be like you and get all worked up over what someone has to say and attack them personally? Would that be a better way to use my time?

Andy I apologize for the delay in my response I was doing things with my life besides blogging about the Patriots.

Your correct I shouldn't of attacked you personally however at least I did it directly rather then using passive aggressive comments. But either way I do apologize for the name calling I could of handled myself better.

Regarding the definition that comes directly from American Football Terminology Dictionary by John T. Reed feel free to check it out could help you in being more accurate with your posts. Just some friendly advise.

I referenced Madden 13 because it is a game that historically is behind the actual NFL plays and even it is reflective of a Patriots light 4-3 base.

I do watch the games and I also would be willing to put my football knowledge up against you any time in regards to anything; of course in a friendly competition .

You obviously are someone who is set in his ways for better or for worse but can we look at the facts.
-Deaderick and Fanene have not practiced in any grouping at DE.
-Ninkovich has played LDE in camp and OTA's

If you can give me one argument besides BB has never done it before I will hear you out and even change my opinion but if your sitting here saying just that then it is a foolish argument. BB was a run first coach not that long ago, no team ever ran the two TE set the way the Patriots do now. The thing that makes BB a great coach is his ability to do things differently. If old school coaching approaches worked then Parcells and Ditka would of succeed in there returns to coaching.

Further more the Ravens have been the most successful team defensively over the last decade and it has ran with Ngata, Redding and 5 linebackers playing standing or hand down. And they only bring Terence Cody in for running situations.

Look at the personal comparisions

Hightower/Ninkovich = Jarrett Johnson
Wilfork = Ngata
Fanene/Deaderick = Redding
Jones/Scott = Suggs
Mayo = Lewis

It is clear based on our personal that is what fits best. Will there be times that we bring Love in bounce Deaderick or Fanene to LDE and move Hightower/Nink back to the SAM LB yes... But that will not be our base defense that will be our 3rd and short lineup.. Also Hightower is 6'2 bout 270 compared to Fanene at 6'4 285 given the height and weight I would say Hightower is a bigger load to move from a strength perspective.

 

[Sciz]

New England Patriots have shown good signs early in camp - ESPN Boston

New-look defense. Bill Belichick appears to have officially turned the page on defense, introducing a new scheme that looks much different than the trademark 3-4 base package he's taught as a foundation throughout most of his tenure. Clearly, this is a result of the team spending less and less time in its heavier base defense in recent years (34 percent of the snaps in 2011), and this defense is a faster, more athletic unit with a four-man line. The top six ends (Jake Bequette, Jermaine Cunningham, Justin Francis, Chandler Jones, Rob Ninkovich, Trevor Scott) and the top six interior players (Ron Brace, Brandon Deaderick, Jonathan Fanene, Kyle Love, Gerard Warren, Vince Wilfork) have been really getting after it, giving fans some hope that the pass rush might show more consistent signs of life.

And based on what I've read, the base defense so far looks like this:

Ninkovich, Scott, and Jones are the names I've seen thrown around at end, with Wilfork and Love in the middle. Hightower, Spikes, and Mayo should be the Sam, Mike, and Will, respectively.

So yes, all indications so far are that the Patriots are, in fact, using a 4-3 with two small defensive ends so far. And with 270 pound Hightower as the Sam, they can probably get away with it just fine.

 

[mayoclinic]

Further more the Ravens have been the most successful team defensively over the last decade and it has ran with Ngata, Redding and 5 linebackers playing standing or hand down. And they only bring Terence Cody in for running situations.

Look at the personal comparisions

Hightower/Ninkovich = Jarrett Johnson
Wilfork = Ngata
Fanene/Deaderick = Redding
Jones/Scott = Suggs
Mayo = Lewis

It is clear based on our personal that is what fits best. Will there be times that we bring Love in bounce Deaderick or Fanene to LDE and move Hightower/Nink back to the SAM LB yes... But that will not be our base defense that will be our 3rd and short lineup.. Also Hightower is 6'2 bout 270 compared to Fanene at 6'4 285 given the height and weight I would say Hightower is a bigger load to move from a strength perspective.

I think that BB has clearly been influenced by some other defenses around the league. I've suggested the Giants, 49ers and Seahawks (who have the makings of a very good defense) as well as the Ravens. It's tempting to draw comparisons. I've suggested the following:

Bequette = Tuck
Jones = Piere-Paul
Fanene = Canty
Hightower = Kiwanuka

But the fact is that the players are different and will each have their own strengths and styles. Mayo is totally different from Ray Lewis, and atl east in the past has been used completely differently.

You say "it is clear based on our personnel that this is what fits best", but I think that is a little too aggressive this early on. I certainly understand that some of the personnel moves are not consistent with the desire to run a heavy 3-4 7-man front and suggest a move in that direction, but a lot will depend on how the youngsters develop. Expecting Jones to burst into full glory as a Terrell Suggs kind of player right away is probably not realistic, and BB is a pragmatist. I suspect that he'll be tinkering with "what fits best" given the development of the personnel and the nature of the opponent all season long, and I'm pretty sure that it will incorporate a fair amount of 3 man lines with 2-gapping, as Andy suggests.

 

[goheels22002]

I think that BB has clearly been influenced by some other defenses around the league. I've suggested the Giants, 49ers and Seahawks (who have the makings of a very good defense) as well as the Ravens. It's tempting to draw comparisons. I've suggested the following:

Bequette = Tuck
Jones = Piere-Paul
Fanene = Canty
Hightower = Kiwanuka

But the fact is that the players are different and will each have their own strengths and styles. Mayo is totally different from Ray Lewis, and atl east in the past has been used completely differently.

You say "it is clear based on our personnel that this is what fits best", but I think that is a little too aggressive this early on. I certainly understand that some of the personnel moves are not consistent with the desire to run a heavy 3-4 7-man front and suggest a move in that direction, but a lot will depend on how the youngsters develop. Expecting Jones to burst into full glory as a Terrell Suggs kind of player right away is probably not realistic, and BB is a pragmatist. I suspect that he'll be tinkering with "what fits best" given the development of the personnel and the nature of the opponent all season long, and I'm pretty sure that it will incorporate a fair amount of 3 man lines with 2-gapping, as Andy suggests.

I agree. Of course, Belichick and Patricia are looking at what other teams are doing, but don't think the Patriots are the copy cat. Belichick was designing Super Bowl winning defenses with the NY Giants 25 years ago. They're watching him.

This year, more than last, the Patriots have depth at every level of the defense. Nothing we see today indicates what they settle into once the regular season rolls around. Who they keep and injuries will determine what the base will be, and what sub-packages they use in different situations.

Last season this debate raged and then the Patriots started cutting everybody or players came and went with injuries - the defense in December did not look at all like what we saw in pre-season when Fat Albert and Sanders and Merriweather etc, etc. etc, were there. Chung's injury and return had a huge impact. 2011 was amazing, really. I can't remember a season with that amount of turnover.

Belichick adapts better than any coach. Personnel is such a dynamic thing, yet the Patriots still compete at a very high level. That is because they obsess over quality depth at every position, versatility by players, and change from week to week depending on the opponent and the Patriots' own strengths.

The "system" criticisms of Brady and Welker are utter non-sense. They adapt to this week's game plan and so does the defense.

This defense could be either a base 4-3 or 3-4. Mostly, it will depend on what the Opening Day roster looks like. No matter, the defensive line is the most fascinating group to watch as they compete for roster spots.

 

[BBass]

I think that BB has clearly been influenced by some other defenses around the league. I've suggested the Giants, 49ers and Seahawks (who have the makings of a very good defense) as well as the Ravens. It's tempting to draw comparisons. I've suggested the following:

Bequette = Tuck
Jones = Piere-Paul
Fanene = Canty
Hightower = Kiwanuka

But the fact is that the players are different and will each have their own strengths and styles. Mayo is totally different from Ray Lewis, and atl east in the past has been used completely differently.

You say "it is clear based on our personnel that this is what fits best", but I think that is a little too aggressive this early on. I certainly understand that some of the personnel moves are not consistent with the desire to run a heavy 3-4 7-man front and suggest a move in that direction, but a lot will depend on how the youngsters develop. Expecting Jones to burst into full glory as a Terrell Suggs kind of player right away is probably not realistic, and BB is a pragmatist. I suspect that he'll be tinkering with "what fits best" given the development of the personnel and the nature of the opponent all season long, and I'm pretty sure that it will incorporate a fair amount of 3 man lines with 2-gapping, as Andy suggests.

I agree I don't expect Jones to be Suggs I was speaking skill set wise the ability to rush standing or hand down, I also agree BB is not a copy cat I was simply speaking toward the similarities of the players and if there was a defense that we have the fit to run I see the Ravens as the closest. Regarding Mayo and Lewis also agree totally different players I am just speaking to the fact that Mayo in the role of Lewis roaming in a play maker capacity would be ideal.

Thank you for the feedback you gave me some good insight..

 

[PP2]

So yes, all indications so far are that the Patriots are, in fact, using a 4-3 with two small defensive ends so far. And with 270 pound Hightower as the Sam, they can probably get away with it just fine.

It looks to be more of a penetrating 4-3 than what we're used to seeing in the past (then again I've only attended one camp session). I think this again is a case where BB is just taking a system and adapting to the players he has on hand.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy I apologize for the delay in my response I was doing things with my life besides blogging about the Patriots.

Your correct I shouldn't of attacked you personally however at least I did it directly rather then using passive aggressive comments. But either way I do apologize for the name calling I could of handled myself better.

You used a passive aggressive insult in the first sentence then said you don't do that in the 2nd.

Regarding the definition that comes directly from American Football Terminology Dictionary by John T. Reed feel free to check it out could help you in being more accurate with your posts. Just some friendly advise.

I could really care less what definition you find in a book. Everyone (else) clearly understand what is being referred to when we discuss the base defense as opposed to sub defense on this board.

I referenced Madden 13 because it is a game that historically is behind the actual NFL plays and even it is reflective of a Patriots light 4-3 base.

Again, that is a video game.

I do watch the games and I also would be willing to put my football knowledge up against you any time in regards to anything; of course in a friendly competition .

Not interested in your #$%@ measuring contest. I don't much care what your opinion of my knowledge is, and apparently you don't either because you have already contradicted yourself.
I will judge my opinion of your knowledge based upon the content of your postings, and will respond or not respond accordingly rather than making an announcement of whether I think it is sound or not. But thats just me.

You obviously are someone who is set in his ways for better or for worse but can we look at the facts.

No I am someone who puts more value in discerning a coaches philosophy based upon what he has done over a long period time than what is being specualted he changed his phiolosophy to.

-Deaderick and Fanene have not practiced in any grouping at DE.
-Ninkovich has played LDE in camp and OTA's

Can you provide a link to prove that? I saw a clip yesterday with Ninkovicj playing ROLB, so I don't think that is correct.

If you can give me one argument besides BB has never done it before I will hear you out and even change my opinion but if your sitting here saying just that then it is a foolish argument.

The fact that he has never done it before is an indication of his philosophy which is a better indication of what he believes than a rumor that he changed his approach.
The fact that we are talking about a base defense that is used to defend the pass and run, and that we consistently play more and more nickel and dime is extremely pertinent. Ive already explained, but you seem to not want to care. If there is going to be more priority on rushing the QB and defneding the pass at the expense of the run, it will most likely come from more use of nickel and dime, not from reinventing the base defense.

BB was a run first coach not that long ago, no team ever ran the two TE set the way the Patriots do now.

Incorrect and irrelevant.
The HBack/2TE goes back to the 80s.

The thing that makes BB a great coach is his ability to do things differently. If old school coaching approaches worked then Parcells and Ditka would of succeed in there returns to coaching.

So your argument that THIS change will happen is that change happens? So when do we go to the single wing?

Further more the Ravens have been the most successful team defensively over the last decade and it has ran with Ngata, Redding and 5 linebackers playing standing or hand down. And they only bring Terence Cody in for running situations.

Again, just not correct.

Look at the personal comparisions

Hightower/Ninkovich = Jarrett Johnson
Wilfork = Ngata
Fanene/Deaderick = Redding
Jones/Scott = Suggs
Mayo = Lewis

We can name players on one team and call that proof that our guys will play their system, but again, you are just making things up.

It is clear based on our personal that is what fits best.

Clear to who?

Will there be times that we bring Love in bounce Deaderick or Fanene to LDE and move Hightower/Nink back to the SAM LB yes... But that will not be our base defense that will be our 3rd and short lineup..

So let me get this straight. Not only is BB totally changing his concept of playing defense, but after 4 days of camp you already know how he is going to do it, and what the personell groupings are?

Also Hightower is 6'2 bout 270 compared to Fanene at 6'4 285 given the height and weight I would say Hightower is a bigger load to move from a strength perspective.

Thanks for ending on a high note

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

I agree. Of course, Belichick and Patricia are looking at what other teams are doing, but don't think the Patriots are the copy cat. Belichick was designing Super Bowl winning defenses with the NY Giants 25 years ago. They're watching him.

This year, more than last, the Patriots have depth at every level of the defense. Nothing we see today indicates what they settle into once the regular season rolls around. Who they keep and injuries will determine what the base will be, and what sub-packages they use in different situations.

Last season this debate raged and then the Patriots started cutting everybody or players came and went with injuries - the defense in December did not look at all like what we saw in pre-season when Fat Albert and Sanders and Merriweather etc, etc. etc, were there. Chung's injury and return had a huge impact. 2011 was amazing, really. I can't remember a season with that amount of turnover.

Belichick adapts better than any coach. Personnel is such a dynamic thing, yet the Patriots still compete at a very high level. That is because they obsess over quality depth at every position, versatility by players, and change from week to week depending on the opponent and the Patriots' own strengths.

The "system" criticisms of Brady and Welker are utter non-sense. They adapt to this week's game plan and so does the defense.

This defense could be either a base 4-3 or 3-4. Mostly, it will depend on what the Opening Day roster looks like. No matter, the defensive line is the most fascinating group to watch as they compete for roster spots.

The ability to pressure with four is a universal football quality.

Besides, the important point is do you have the personnel and scheme to play an elite offense that isn't stumbling over itself.

 

[BBass]

You used a passive aggressive insult in the first sentence then said you don't do that in the 2nd.


I could really care less what definition you find in a book. Everyone (else) clearly understand what is being referred to when we discuss the base defense as opposed to sub defense on this board.




Again, that is a video game.




Not interested in your #$%@ measuring contest. I don't much care what your opinion of my knowledge is, and apparently you don't either because you have already contradicted yourself.
I will judge my opinion of your knowledge based upon the content of your postings, and will respond or not respond accordingly rather than making an announcement of whether I think it is sound or not. But thats just me.


No I am someone who puts more value in discerning a coaches philosophy based upon what he has done over a long period time than what is being specualted he changed his phiolosophy to.


Can you provide a link to prove that? I saw a clip yesterday with Ninkovicj playing ROLB, so I don't think that is correct.


The fact that he has never done it before is an indication of his philosophy which is a better indication of what he believes than a rumor that he changed his approach.
The fact that we are talking about a base defense that is used to defend the pass and run, and that we consistently play more and more nickel and dime is extremely pertinent. Ive already explained, but you seem to not want to care. If there is going to be more priority on rushing the QB and defneding the pass at the expense of the run, it will most likely come from more use of nickel and dime, not from reinventing the base defense.



Incorrect and irrelevant.
The HBack/2TE goes back to the 80s.


So your argument that THIS change will happen is that change happens? So when do we go to the single wing?




Again, just not correct.


We can name players on one team and call that proof that our guys will play their system, but again, you are just making things up.


Clear to who?


So let me get this straight. Not only is BB totally changing his concept of playing defense, but after 4 days of camp you already know how he is going to do it, and what the personell groupings are?


Thanks for ending on a high note

Andy I have read your posts there all the same and basically you just argue with everyone on here... Not interested in playing that game with you. My opinions may or may not be what will happen but at least they offer something other then what we have done in the past and I personally enjoy thinking outside the box no matter how unrealistic you may view it.. That is my style and your style is to reference what we did last year to achieve our 31st ranked defense and how we will keep doing it this year.

Anyways you can feel free to comment on any of my posts with you naysayer ways I no longer put any stock in what you have to say because you just think what you think and its probably been the same posts for 10 years with just different names.

Happy blogging...

 

[Patriot 37]

So let me get this straight. Not only is BB totally changing his concept of playing defense, but after 4 days of camp you already know how he is going to do it, and what the personell groupings are?

So when you say that there is ZERO Chance that the Pats play a 4-3 base with smaller DEs it's because of your superior football knowledge, but when BBass and others suggest that is very possible they with go with a smaller LDE this year they are clueless and don't understand football.

Maybe Scott of Bequette will be the LDE or maybe you will be right and it will be Deadrick or Faneane. Either way you are seriously arrogant.

 

[jah]

Can you provide a link to prove that? I saw a clip yesterday with Ninkovicj playing ROLB, so I don't think that is correct.

Have you read any of the TC reports at all? Look through them and you'll see that Ninkovich has been playing mostly LE, some RE, and little to no LB.

 

[BradyManny]

Can you provide a link to prove that? I saw a clip yesterday with Ninkovicj playing ROLB, so I don't think that is correct

New England Patriots have shown good signs early in camp - ESPN Boston

New-look defense. Bill Belichick appears to have officially turned the page on defense, introducing a new scheme that looks much different than the trademark 3-4 base package he's taught as a foundation throughout most of his tenure. Clearly, this is a result of the team spending less and less time in its heavier base defense in recent years (34 percent of the snaps in 2011), and this defense is a faster, more athletic unit with a four-man line. The top six ends (Jake Bequette, Jermaine Cunningham, Justin Francis, Chandler Jones, Rob Ninkovich, Trevor Scott) and the top six interior players (Ron Brace, Brandon Deaderick, Jonathan Fanene, Kyle Love, Gerard Warren, Vince Wilfork) have been really getting after it, giving fans some hope that the pass rush might show more consistent signs of life.

Not to rehash our debate from before, but if your rebuttal is that Reiss is - as I was - jumping the gun based on past history, there is something to that. Certainly how we start in camp does not dictate how we end it. Plus, he isn't necessarily talking about the base defense (or what we could call the base defense, that phrase is slowly meaning less and less) here. It's not clear.

In the youtube clip from camp, I saw Ninko or Scott (forget which) standing up. But that could be 43 over, looked like it to my layman's eyes. Though it all gets back to the larger point that it doesn't matter all that much and the 34 v 43 debate is oversold.

The more interesting aspect of Reiss post to me is that when coupled with the point about Brace & Cunningham having strong offseasons to date, making cuts along the D-Line is looking increasingly difficult. There is more competition at that spot than I envisioned in the spring. And we could still add Carter down the line.

 

[Deus Irae]

...if your rebuttal is that Reiss is - as I was - jumping the gun based on past history, there is something to that. Certainly how we start in camp does not dictate how we end it...

This is something that's being ignored this year. We don't know what BB is goig to do with this team yet. Last year, they practiced pretty much exclusively the 4-3 (and nickel and dime) in training camp, yet they still played a lot of 3 down linemen over the course of the season.

 

[BradyManny]

This is something that's being ignored this year. We don't know what BB is going to do with this team yet. Last year, they practiced pretty much exclusively the 4-3 (and nickel and dime) in training camp, yet they still played a lot of 3 down linemen over the course of the season.

Agreed. This is fair. And that's where some of us, ie me, maybe got a little ahead of themselves after the first couple days.

And it all depends on who we are playing anyway. Obviously this defense will look very different against the Jets or Phins than against the Bills or Broncos.

 

[Deus Irae]

Agreed. This is fair. And that's where some of us, ie me, maybe got a little ahead of themselves after the first couple days.

We're all floundering a bit because of the unknown. I think you were bringing up valid points, even though we were disagreeing on some parts of our takes.

And it all depends on who we are playing anyway. Obviously this defense will look very different against the Jets or Phins than against the Bills or Broncos.

This is probably the safest way to put it, because we all know how much stock BB puts into being multiple.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

:

Agreed. This is fair. And that's where some of us, ie me, maybe got a little ahead of themselves after the first couple days.

And it all depends on who we are playing anyway. Obviously this defense will look very different against the Jets or Phins than against the Bills or Broncos.

Something perceptive.

Who knew?

Ofcourse, if you threw in something about "situational football", it might get you out of the corner..............