Roster evaluations - need help grading a few players

[DaBruinz]

Sanders was on the field by default. If the Pats have a chance to upgrade the position, they will be happy to say bye bye to the invisible Sanders. Just because you have a lot of tackles, doesn't make you a good player. There is a big difference between tackling a player after the initial catch and chasing him 10-20 yards after the catch. Sanders was that guy that would be chasing guys because he took poor angles.

Wrong. Sanders EARNED his way onto the field over the last few years. Otherwise, why would BB, LAST YEAR, say that the Patriots had 3 starting caliber safeties? It was a giant Kudos to Sanders.

No, it's James Sanders. But yes, Lewis Sanders is invisible as well. And what's up with you calling me Ear Chives?

You two are the minority when it's comes to thinking Sanders is a solid starter. Also, you two were probably those guys that thought Eugene Wilson and Randall Gay needed to be re-signed because of how valuable they were. Get over it, Sanders is either leaving or going to be a back up. Seriously, is there any starter on the team that you think needs an upgrade? It wouldn't surprise me if you said "of course not! This team is perfect, why change anything?"

Actually, you are the one of the ones in the minority. The only reason it sounds like a Majority is all the yelling, ranting and raving that DW Toys insists on making about Sanders.

There are a few starters on this team who could be upgraded. Ben Watson, Heath Evans, Bruschi, and Kaczur, just to start with. Could Sanders be upgraded? Sure. But as I just pointed out, so could 5 others. And we could add in Vrabel and Wilhite/O'Neal if you really want to.

What people like yourself fail to acknowledge is that its impossible to have the BEST player in the league at every position. Even if you exclude the EGOs, you've got the money issues.

 

[mgteich]

I essentially agree.

WASHINGTON
The question is whether he is beat out for his ST roster spot. Washington, Slater, Ventrone and Izzo seem to be a lot of pure STers.

JAMES SANDERS
I agree that we will make a storng try to keep the leader of the secondary (he did call the signals). I don't expect to keep him. There always seems to be teams willing to pay more than we are for our defensive backfield free agents. This has been true for the entire Belichick era.

KACZUR
The only ones that want to get rid of Kaczur are sitting on fan boards. He started at LT in his rookie year, and did reasoanably well. However, Kaczur is a free agent next year. I think it is more likely that he be extended than cut in this offseason. All that having been said, we do have an opportunity to bring in a potential 2010 uprade or someone to compete with Kaczur. Britt and Callaghan are competing for the #4 spot. Britt likely won't even be tendered. LeVoir seems entrenched as an inexpensive backup.

KELLEY WASHINGTON - The Pats were scouting a Maryland LB who checked in at 228 lbs., I'd say they place a value on ST's aces. Kelly re-did his contract last offseason after his first year where he never caught a pass, I think cash value wise he's in the NE comfort zone.

NICK KACZUR - Four year starter at either Tackle slot, if BB wants to upgrade him I'd say it would be next year when you can let him walk as a UFA (RFA in his case) and avoid having a 'potentially' soured former starter on your bench.

JAMES SANDERS - Check Reiss' playing time analysis in his blog. I expect a strong effort to bring him back.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Wrong. Sanders EARNED his way onto the field over the last few years. Otherwise, why would BB, LAST YEAR, say that the Patriots had 3 starting caliber safeties? It was a giant Kudos to Sanders.
Actually, you are the one of the ones in the minority. The only reason it sounds like a Majority is all the yelling, ranting and raving that DW Toys insists on making about Sanders.

There are a few starters on this team who could be upgraded. Ben Watson, Heath Evans, Bruschi, and Kaczur, just to start with. Could Sanders be upgraded? Sure. But as I just pointed out, so could 5 others. And we could add in Vrabel and Wilhite/O'Neal if you really want to.

What people like yourself fail to acknowledge is that its impossible to have the BEST player in the league at every position. Even if you exclude the EGOs, you've got the money issues.

Ok, then. You seem to know the Patriots organization from inside to out. Are you sure you aren't on the coaching staff? We will see how much BB really likes him when FA rolls around. I can guarentee that if Sanders leaves, most people on this board will be like "oh, he wasn't any good anyways". However, at least you have named some starters that should be replaced. I don't expect the Pats to have the best player at every position. I'm just saying that Sanders should be replaced with someone better. It's as simple as that.

 

[DaBruinz]

Ok, then. You seem to know the Patriots organization from inside to out. Are you sure you aren't on the coaching staff? We will see how much BB really likes him when FA rolls around. I can guarentee that if Sanders leaves, most people on this board will be like "oh, he wasn't any good anyways". However, at least you have named some starters that should be replaced. I don't expect the Pats to have the best player at every position. I'm just saying that Sanders should be replaced with someone better. It's as simple as that.

No. I don't seem to know the Patriots organization from the inside out. I am repeating what Belichick said in a press conference. Sorry that you chose to ignore it. But that is typical of someone of just spews about a player.

You can't guarantee squat when it comes to what others will say.

Your statements indicate that you DO expect them to have the best. You crapped all over Sanders and made statements that just aren't true. So, its not just as simple as that.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

No. I don't seem to know the Patriots organization from the inside out. I am repeating what Belichick said in a press conference. Sorry that you chose to ignore it. But that is typical of someone of just spews about a player.

You can't guarantee squat when it comes to what others will say.

Your statements indicate that you DO expect them to have the best. You crapped all over Sanders and made statements that just aren't true. So, its not just as simple as that.

Do you really think BB is going to trash and humiliate a particular player in a press conference? Seriously, BB is going to say the politically correct thing when is comes to responding to any player on the team. You have to take whatever any coach or player says with a grain a salt. I don't even watch press conferences or care about what any player says because all they do is say what we want to hear. Almost every player in the NFL is taught to speak the same cliché way. Actions speak louder than words. Whether a team wins or loses is all I care about. So if BB signs and starts Sanders, it will really show how much BB values him. If you re-read my post again I clearly said that Sanders would be a good backup rotating in with the starters. However, I don't feel that Sanders is a starting quality safety. People on this board have a pattern of defending players on this team until they depart in FA. It seems like it’s hard for you to understand that I don't expect the Pats to have the best at every position. In my opinion, Sean Jones or Jermaine Phillips would be an upgrade over Sanders. You really think they will break the bank? Is that asking too much?

 

[mgteich]

Yes, some fans do indeed support the players on the team that Belichick has chosen to start, especially those chosen to lead and call signals. Yes, some fans believe that anyone that leaves is either a traitor or not very good. Some fans almost always believe that some player released or to be released by another team is better than what we have and worth the risk of paying extra money to upgrade over our poor quality players. We have threads asking about acquiring almost every player released.

Sanders has been a starter for the patriots. He started when competing for his position with a first round draft choice. He started this past year. And he will start for some team in 2009. The fact that some here believe that James Sanders would be nice backup is somewhat beside the point. Of course, it would be better to upgrade on James Sanders and keep Sanders as a backup at a backup salary.

The team would almost always be improved if we brought in a better player who fit in as well, and also kept the former starter as a backup. Consider Vrabel and Thomas. Would it better if we signed a player better than both of them and reduced their reps. Sure! What about bringing in a new starting OT, OG or TE? The same goes for every player on the team not named Brady, Moss, Gostkowski or Welker.

Belichick needs to build the best team possible for 2009, 2010, 2011 and beyond. The patriots do that as well as any team in the league. One of the keys to this success is getting the most out of players like James Sanders.

Is it asking too much to upgrade Sanders. I don't know. NO ONE DOES! Belichick will find out the cost. Does paying a lot for an upgrade to James Sanders make much sense, given our other free agent and exteension priorities? That is the real question. My answer is absolutely not.

Do you really think BB is going to trash and humiliate a particular player in a press conference? Seriously, BB is going to say the politically correct thing when is comes to responding to any player on the team. You have to take whatever any coach or player says with a grain a salt. I don't even watch press conferences or care about what any player says because all they do is say what we want to hear. Almost every player in the NFL is taught to speak the same cliché way. Actions speak louder than words. Whether a team wins or loses is all I care about. So if BB signs and starts Sanders, it will really show how much BB values him. If you re-read my post again I clearly said that Sanders would be a good backup rotating in with the starters. However, I don't feel that Sanders is a starting quality safety. People on this board have a pattern of defending players on this team until they depart in FA. It seems like it’s hard for you to understand that I don't expect the Pats to have the best at every position. In my opinion, Sean Jones or Jermaine Phillips would be an upgrade over Sanders. You really think they will break the bank? Is that asking too much?

 

[cstjohn17]

KELLEY WASHINGTON - Even with Gaffney gone he is still the 4th WR, Aiken at least caught a couple of passes. Washington is a pretty good special teams player which keeps him on the good side of the roster bubble.

NICK KACZUR - For a 3rd round pick (#100 overall) he has outplayed his draft slot by a mile. He will never be an Orlando Pace but unless an OT is drafted in round 1 he is the starting RT in 2009. I would consider resigning him early because I think he could play guard if necessary in 2010 if both O'Neal and Mankins walk.

JAMES SANDERS
Not exactly Ronnie Lott but not Artrell Hawkins either, good solid player and plays special teams. I would like to see him signed as the fallback. Ideally a more talented player could be brought in so that the team wouldn't be forced to play so much zone defense.

These names touch on some of my roster questions, I am not thinking of names but of positions. In order the holes in the 2009 roster for at this point are:

SS - no one is signed, I guess the position is Spann's by default for now
Free Agents - possible names Jermaine Phillips (Tampa), Atogwe (St. Louis), Jones (Cleveland), Sanders (New England)
Draft - No Safeties in the draft appear to be day 1 starters

ILB - Guyton and Bruschi in a rotation at this point
Free Agents I would consider - Crowder (Miami), Barton (NY Jets)
free agents that will be too expensive - Dansby (Arizona)
Draft - Maualuga, Laurinaitis (maybe), Sintim

CB - Hobbs is the number 1, Wheatley / Wilhite for #2
IMO the rookies haven't proven anything, expect a CB to be drafted in rounds 1 or 2

2010 roster - it never pays to think too far ahead but obviously the D line and O lines are huge question marks

It begs the question, if the Patriots extend Wilfork and do nothing else of significance this offseason is that enough?

 

[DaBruinz]

Do you really think BB is going to trash and humiliate a particular player in a press conference? Seriously, BB is going to say the politically correct thing when is comes to responding to any player on the team. You have to take whatever any coach or player says with a grain a salt. I don't even watch press conferences or care about what any player says because all they do is say what we want to hear. Almost every player in the NFL is taught to speak the same cliché way. Actions speak louder than words. Whether a team wins or loses is all I care about. So if BB signs and starts Sanders, it will really show how much BB values him. If you re-read my post again I clearly said that Sanders would be a good backup rotating in with the starters. However, I don't feel that Sanders is a starting quality safety. People on this board have a pattern of defending players on this team until they depart in FA. It seems like it’s hard for you to understand that I don't expect the Pats to have the best at every position. In my opinion, Sean Jones or Jermaine Phillips would be an upgrade over Sanders. You really think they will break the bank? Is that asking too much?

Instead of being stupid and trying to spin anything that is said by Belichick to be meaningless, why do you go back and review the press conference. The question was actually in reference to the safety position and how he saw it playing out and whether he felt there was enough depth there. It was then that he praised Sanders and mentioned about the team having 3 starting quality safeties.

BB re-signing Sanders has very little if anything to do with whether he has confidence in the player. There are too many variables for you to say that the team not re-signing Sanders is a show of a lack of confidence in him. Such as whether another team offered him more money. Or he decides to move closer to his family. Or his wife decides she just doesn't like living in New England.

People like yourself have a habit of crapping all over players they hate regardless of whether the player is good or bad or average.

As for Phillips or Jones, how do you know that they will be able to play in the Patriots system? I don't see either as an upgrade, necessarily. They would be replacements until such time as they could prove themselves to be better or worse. And that would include taking over the secondary play calling.

 

[JSn]

I love it when you guys fight.

The thing about Sanders is that if a good replacement or upgrade falls from the sky or the draft, he might be expendable. If he's happy here and willing to take a reasonable offer, I think he's a good player.

We use the term depth a lot, but the bottom line is that it's not the lingo of the locker-room. Harrison talked about this last night on NFLN saying the Patriot-way is guys doing their part to get a win, regardless of who gets the credit. As we know that goes from scout-team to starting QB.

I'm not positive how much room we'll make at safety, but I would guess 4 players. If so, how about a fresh, rehabbed Rodney, Tank, Meri and JSanders?
That seems like a nice corps. of versatile guys. Granted we'll have to see what we see with Tank and maybe he's part LB as for roster space, letting us grab a rookie, but I'd guess this is close to the plan for this year. A budget safety group behind a good LB group and in front of a 4 deep group of corners (Hobbs, Wheatley, Wilhite + FA/Rookie).

Also, as far as Vrabel, his play-diagnosis is lights out. He may not have been getting to the passer this much but I'm calling that a cross between scheme and playing injured. If you consider the plan for this year going in and how it shook out, it's not surprising. We lost AD, RH, and Tank all of whom like to beat up on QB's. The loss of AD especially probably roughed up Mike's numbers for the rest of the year. Something tells me Bill will be back to this plan and scheme next year, hoping to avoid it getting messed up. Still getting the corner group solid would be good in case the wicked-pissah-pass-rush gets messed over y injuries again.

 

[cstjohn17]

I love it when you guys fight.

I'm not positive how much room we'll make at safety, but I would guess 4 players. If so, how about a fresh, rehabbed Rodney, Tank, Meri and JSanders?
That seems like a nice corps. of versatile guys. Granted we'll have to see what we see with Tank and maybe he's part LB as for roster space, letting us grab a rookie, but I'd guess this is close to the plan for this year. A budget safety group behind a good LB group and in front of a 4 deep group of corners (Hobbs, Wheatley, Wilhite + FA/Rookie).

I think that is the exact roster they are trying to avoid, the back seven including the secondary pretty much sucked when asked to cover other teams. I expect some changes, especially at Safety.

 

[JSn]

I think that is the exact roster they are trying to avoid, the back seven including the secondary pretty much sucked when asked to cover other teams. I expect some changes, especially at Safety.

I disagree. Tank never played a snap. Harrison went out early on and Sanders did a good job given the high snap count and added duties. Wilhite beat out O'Neil and was growing and we lost Wheatley just as he was getting good. Meri was really good this year as well and Hobbs was solid, given he spent a lot time recovering from returns and was battling should issues.

Also, that secondary would be much better with a repaired pass rush. As would all secondaries. I doubt you'd have seen many INT's from Samuel this year either.

 

[cstjohn17]

I disagree. Tank never played a snap. Harrison went out early on and Sanders did a good job given the high snap count and added duties. Wilhite beat out O'Neil and was growing and we lost Wheatley just as he was getting good. Meri was really good this year as well and Hobbs was solid, given he spent a lot time recovering from returns and was battling should issues.

Also, that secondary would be much better with a repaired pass rush. As would all secondaries. I doubt you'd have seen many INT's from Samuel this year either.

At CB their hands are tied, I expect a draft pick in rounds 1 or 2 for CB followed by the veteran JAG du jour. At Safety I hope they can do better than bringing back two guys with serious injury concerns (Harrison and Williams). Harrison could be a mid season add-in ala Seau but I expect a solid veteran to be signed and a draft pick added.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Instead of being stupid and trying to spin anything that is said by Belichick to be meaningless, why do you go back and review the press conference. The question was actually in reference to the safety position and how he saw it playing out and whether he felt there was enough depth there. It was then that he praised Sanders and mentioned about the team having 3 starting quality safeties.

I stopped watching meaningless press conferences 8 years ago after I left high school. I don't care what players and coaches have to say, I only care about their actions. Again, what else is BB going to say about the depth at the safety position, "no, we don't have depth. I don't have confidnece in any of the playes we have now?" Come on man, your wasting your time trying to get answers when you probably already know what they (players and coaches) are going to say before they even answer the questions.

BB re-signing Sanders has very little if anything to do with whether he has confidence in the player. There are too many variables for you to say that the team not re-signing Sanders is a show of a lack of confidence in him. Such as whether another team offered him more money. Or he decides to move closer to his family. Or his wife decides she just doesn't like living in New England.

I will give you that because there are other factors such as the ones you stated above in terms of re-signing players. Who knows, maybe Sanders doesn't want to re-sign with the Pats because he wants to move closer to his home town.

People like yourself have a habit of crapping all over players they hate regardless of whether the player is good or bad or average.

I only crap on players that Pats fans think are better than they really are. The problem with people on this board is that if BB thinks any player is good, they must be good. For example, if BB told the media that Monty Beisel was the best LB on the field in '05, people on this board would believe it.

As for Phillips or Jones, how do you know that they will be able to play in the Patriots system? I don't see either as an upgrade, necessarily. They would be replacements until such time as they could prove themselves to be better or worse. And that would include taking over the secondary play calling.

How did I know you were going to say that? "Will they fit in the Patriots system" is what most people say on the this board. Obviously a player like Dwight Freeney wouldn't fit in as a 3-4 end. But DB's are another story. If the player has the talent and the smarts, he can fit into any system. In fact, the reason why lots of people suggest Sean Jones is because he played for Romeo Crennel. Jones can actually hit a guy or two and make plays. Sanders is just a body.

 

[The_Riddler]

Sanders - The guy everybody wants to pick on. Well, people pick on him for a reason because he's pretty much invisible during games. Sanders doesn't make much of an impact on the field, takes really poor angles and rarely makes any plays what so ever (int, big hit, fumble, fumble recovery). I just see Sanders as just another body on the field. The Pats need a major upgrade at this position and move Merriweather to FS. However, Sanders would be a good backup to rotate in to give the starters a breather. The verdict: Sanders is average at best.

Bingo.......Never around the football until after the ball is caught and the damage has been done, then he'll jump in for the hit.......Not real great in run support. Quite frankly, I can't even think of the last time this man made a big play, if he has, can someone let me know. He's a 3rd safety on most teams, a solid depth player, that's really all he is and nothing more than that. Look he was a 4th round pick from Fresno State, not a big BB investment and I think based on his draft spot, he's done what he's been asked to do and has earned his money. Yet this spot needs to be upgraded. If he signed somewhere else, I wouldn't shed any tears.........James has maximized his ability and there's no shame in that. He's a humble, lunch-pail guy that put in a solid 8 hours, and kept his mouth shut, every single day. I thank him for this. Nothing more can be asked out of a man that has done everything in his power to maximize what he can bring to the football field.