Refs need to modify their spot "cheating" inside the 20s

[QuantumMechanic]

I've read elsewhere, mentioned here, and have verified through watching for it this year that the refs "cheat" the spot to greatly reduce the need to bring out the chains.

The process is this:

• Play ends and refs make a true spot of the ball at the place where the play ended.
• If the play did not result in the first down they will leave the ball where it is (if inside the hashmarks) or will transfer it to the hashmarks on the true spot.
• If the true spot did result in a first down (including a measurement if need be) then when they spot the ball ready for play they will "cheat" the spot and move the ball to just touch the offense's side of the nearest yard line. That's why they hardly ever bring out chains. Since each set of downs starts from an exact yard line the line-to-gain is also an exact yard line, thus it is trivial to tell if a play resulted in a first down. If the nose of the ball touches or is past the offense's edge of the required yard line it is a first down.

Overall this doesn't matter much. However, it can matter near the endzones. For example, in the BAL game there was a NE punt (in the 4thQ, I think) that landed and rolled and rolled and rolled OOB at around the BAL 1.5 yard line (maybe a bit inside the 1.5). You could see this clear as day because it was on the side of the field where the camera was and they even zoomed in as it was rolling. Yet when BAL came to the line of scrimmage for their first play of the series the ball was right at the 2 yard line. That extra 1/2-2/3 of a yard can make a real difference in that situation. On a stuffed run it could be the difference between a safety and not.

They need to stop "cheating" the spot at least within the 5 and maybe within the 20. I don't have a problem with it otherwise.

 

[Ring 6]

I've read elsewhere, mentioned here, and have verified through watching for it this year that the refs "cheat" the spot to greatly reduce the need to bring out the chains.

The process is this:

• Play ends and refs make a true spot of the ball at the place where the play ended.
• If the play did not result in the first down they will leave the ball where it is (if inside the hashmarks) or will transfer it to the hashmarks on the true spot.
• If the true spot did result in a first down (including a measurement if need be) then when they spot the ball ready for play they will "cheat" the spot and move the ball to just touch the offense's side of the nearest yard line. That's why they hardly ever bring out chains. Since each set of downs starts from an exact yard line the line-to-gain is also an exact yard line, thus it is trivial to tell if a play resulted in a first down. If the nose of the ball touches or is past the offense's edge of the required yard line it is a first down.

Overall this doesn't matter much. However, it can matter near the endzones. For example, in the BAL game there was a NE punt (in the 4thQ, I think) that landed and rolled and rolled and rolled OOB at around the BAL 1.5 yard line (maybe a bit inside the 1.5). You could see this clear as day because it was on the side of the field where the camera was and they even zoomed in as it was rolling. Yet when BAL came to the line of scrimmage for their first play of the series the ball was right at the 2 yard line. That extra 1/2-2/3 of a yard can make a real difference in that situation. On a stuffed run it could be the difference between a safety and not.

They need to stop "cheating" the spot at least within the 5 and maybe within the 20. I don't have a problem with it otherwise.

I noticed that exact incident and figured it was a bad spot.
I do remember hearing about this issue but never remember to check it in games. I do think there have been almost zero measurements this year.
Overall, given instant replay challenges on spots, it probably is a good idea, but you have a good point in this case.

 

[Two Eight]

I've noticed this a lot before but it did seem especially obvious in the Ravens game

 

[brdmaverick]

I could be wrong but my gut tells me they do this a lot at the goal line as well. I feel like whenever a guy doens't score (but may be inches short) the ball just sort of defaults back to the 1.

 

[SomePatsFan13]

QuantumMechanic made a post; quick, everyone hit disagree!

Lol jk.

Nice post. I've noticed that the refs generally give generous spots to the team the NFL seems to want to win. This isn't homerism, but the refs almost always spot the Patriots short of where we actually were, and take forever to call a TD on goal line rushes. Blount had a few TDs not immediately called at the goal line when it was absolutely clear to everyone else that he was in. I remember a specific play this year where he (eventually got the TD but) had to get in 2 or 3 times on the same play before the refs called it.

On topic, I agree. I've seen them move the ball too many times from where it was supposed to be or just not spot it correctly, and it honestly appears agenda driven. I could be wrong of course, but I don't think that I am.

 

[jah]

I could be wrong but my gut tells me they do this a lot at the goal line as well. I feel like whenever a guy doens't score (but may be inches short) the ball just sort of defaults back to the 1.

It's so absurd to hear officials refer to the mythical "half yard line." What line?!?!?!

 

[brdmaverick]

Maybe they do the 'ball spotting' to help the statisticians, too. After all, if a play starts at the 25 and ends on the 31 it's easy to mark it down as a 6 yard run. If he starts at the 25 1/2 and ends at the 31 1/3 well people's minds may start to explode.

 

[Froob]

Tends to happen a LOT when Denver is on offense...

 

[fourhour]

I do think there have been almost zero measurements this year.

I've been somewhat paying particular attention to this. I think it may have been brought up here early in the season but I started watching it and can only remember the chain measurement once, almost immediately after I mention the lack of it to my buddies.....

But OTOH, I like the spot they gave the Ravens Monday, a 3rd and 6 I believe and Malcolm Butler's hit took away the conversion. My guess is that there was never any "forward progress" after the catch???

 

[luuked]

Maybe they do the 'ball spotting' to help the statisticians, too. After all, if a play starts at the 25 and ends on the 31 it's easy to mark it down as a 6 yard run. If he starts at the 25 1/2 and ends at the 31 1/3 well people's minds may start to explode.

If only we had miracle machines available that can help those poor bastards with computing of those stats.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I've been somewhat paying particular attention to this. I think it may have been brought up here early in the season but I started watching it and can only remember the chain measurement once, almost immediately after I mention the lack of it to my buddies.....

But OTOH, I like the spot they gave the Ravens Monday, a 3rd and 6 I believe and Malcolm Butler's hit took away the conversion. My guess is that there was never any "forward progress" after the catch???

Pitta had to reach back a little bit for the ball -- the point of the catch was short of the sticks even if some of his body was at the sticks -- and Butler immediately blasted him. It was a good spot by the ref.

 

[Tony2046]

I've been somewhat paying particular attention to this. I think it may have been brought up here early in the season but I started watching it and can only remember the chain measurement once, almost immediately after I mention the lack of it to my buddies.....

But OTOH, I like the spot they gave the Ravens Monday, a 3rd and 6 I believe and Malcolm Butler's hit took away the conversion. My guess is that there was never any "forward progress" after the catch???

Someone brought that up but I can't remember which thread or who. But they mentioned that because Butler stood where the play happened while the ref was determining the spot the ref couldn't just "give" the first down away.

Btw: The ball clearly did not reach the first down marker. It was an excellent play by Malcolm.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Might be an unrelated example to @QuantumMechanic 's contention but the 2rd down play Dion had in I think the 2nd quarter was a crap spot. I think he missed it by a few inches but the ref spotted it a full yard short. I remember thinking that was BS

 

[Tony2046]

Might be an unrelated example to @QuantumMechanic 's contention but the 2rd down play Dion had in I think the 2nd quarter was a crap spot. I think he missed it by a few inches but the ref spotted it a full yard short. I remember thinking that was BS

Are you thinking of Edelman?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Are you thinking of Edelman?

Thought it was Dion but it easily could have been JE11.

I just remember my reaction after the replay was disbelief w/ the spot.

 

[Tony2046]

Thought it was Dion but it easily could have been JE11.

I just remember my reaction after the replay was disbelief w/ the spot.

Could have been both for all I know.

My son is a huge Edelman fan and wears his Jersey during the games which is why I remember the Edelman spot because although I didn't think it was horribly bad he went ape **** over it.

 

[fxkane]

I could be wrong but my gut tells me they do this a lot at the goal line as well. I feel like whenever a guy doens't score (but may be inches short) the ball just sort of defaults back to the 1.

You are absolutely right. This happens all the time in the NFL and NCAA. It's frustrating to see an inch turn into a yard or near yard. Sometimes it seems that where they should be most careful they are most careless.

 

[pdangle]

What happens when a team converts a first down at the half yard line? By the rules quoted above, ball would be moved to the zero, which "touches the plane" of the goal, and should be a touch down. That can't be right.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

What happens when a team converts a first down at the half yard line? By the rules quoted above, ball would be moved to the zero, which "touches the plane" of the goal, and should be a touch down. That can't be right.

There's no "rule" here. This is something the refs do for their convenience to make it easier to determine first downs.

Once there's a first down at or inside the 10 there's no need to do anything other than the true spot since the line to gain is the goalline no matter what.

 

[pheenix11]

Was this Goodell's idea? If so, it sucks, fire him.