Pats unfairly gaining advantage with compensatory picks?

[RelocatedPatFan]

I'm pretty sure, the other 31 teams could do the same. Whatever rules you present to BB (Draft, In-game, player-compensation, ...), he will take a look to see if there is an advantage that can be worked out based on how other teams approach/use those rules.

If everyone/most teams are using the 4/3, he sees an opportunity where there is more talent available that will work in a 3/4 and hence there'd be a larger pool of guys with more overall talent at a cheaper price.

Make the rules favoring the offense and passing and he'll adopt a system that uses more DBs as his "new" base package, ...

Seriously, he does what is best for the team, long term which will also work short term. The biggest thing he has is an elite quarterback, but does that stop him from continually developing talent at the QB position?

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

Patriots have taken advantage of a loophole allowing for forward passes to be thrown.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

It does include option years.

The catch is that the prorated money in the option years accelerates if the option is declined/a player is cut.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

The trick to BB success in accumulating Comp picks, is a) having good players that other teams want to sign and b) not going out and signing other teams UFA to ridiculous contracts. You can see the years when the Pats have lost a big time UFA, that BB does not go out and sign a big time FA. Signing the freshly cut Revis to replace Talib was a master piece. Because Revis was cut by the Bucs his signing didn't count against the loss of Talib in the all too murky NFL comp picks formula.

Once again BB is playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers.

The Pats have something like 19 players that are going to be UFAs. So you can pretty much pencil the Pats in for another 4 comp picks (the max any one team can be awarded) next year.

 

[DaBruinz]

Compensatory picks are just one of the mechanisms owners have at their disposal to keep salaries down. It essentially rewards or incentivizes one potential suitor to under bid or not enter the biddding at all for a free agent player's services thereby reducing the number of bidders and establishing a lower floor for the opening bid.

You can bet this is one thing the owners will not change or take away because of a perceived advantage for the patriots. It's lining their pockets.

Compensatory picks are not a mechanism for the owners to keep salaries down. You believing that tells me you don't fully understand how compensatory picks work.

One of the things that most people over-look is that for a player to be eligible for a compensatory pick, the team had to have made them an qualifying offer prior to the start of Free Agency. If the team doesn't make them a qualifying offer, that player will not ever count in the Compensatory pick equation. I'm not 100% certain (though I will look after this post) but I believe a qualifying offer is their previous salary +10% or the vet minimum for their accrued years, whichever is greater.

Because of the Qualifying offer, there is already a "floor" for bidding. Since teams don't actually lose the draft pick from their yearly allotment, how does it reward or incentivize them to big lower? Because it might off-set their own loss? Most teams figure that in their thinking to begin with..

Sorry, but your thought process really doesn't make sense.

The Basics and Methodology on Projecting the Compensatory Draft Picks for 2015 (and beyond) | Over the Cap

 

[SteveFromPA]

OK I stand corrected (and I really should have known better because of the Revis deal but oh well), but now I am befuddled over why more teams don't use this tactic. I mean, I know the Patriots are smarter than other teams, but this particular tactic isn't exactly rocket science.

Then I assume the remainder of the signing bonus becomes dead money, which is something of a penalty for not picking up the option.

 

[DaBruinz]

The trick to BB success in accumulating Comp picks, is a) having good players that other teams want to sign and b) not going out and signing other teams UFA to ridiculous contracts. You can see the years when the Pats have lost a big time UFA, that BB does not go out and sign a big time FA. Signing the freshly cut Revis to replace Talib was a master piece. Because Revis was cut by the Bucs his signing didn't count against the loss of Talib in the all too murky NFL comp picks formula.

Once again BB is playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers.

The Pats have something like 19 players that are going to be UFAs. So you can pretty much pencil the Pats in for another 4 comp picks (the max any one team can be awarded) next year.

The Patriots list of Free Agents is the following unless the Patriots decide not to give a qualifying tender:

New England Patriots 2017 NFL Free Agents and Free Agency Contracts

Martellus Bennett - UFA
Dont'a Hightower - UFA
Logan Ryan - UFA
Duron Harmon - UFA
Jabaal Sheard - UFA
Alan Branch - UFA
LeGarrette Blount - UFA
Sebastian Vollmer - UFA *1
Chris Long - UFA
Michael Floyd - UFA
Barkevious Mingo - UFA
James Develin - UFA
Brandon Bolden - UFA
Gregg Scruggs - UFA

Malcolm Butler - RFA*
Cameron Fleming - RFA*
Michael Williams - RFA*
Justin Coleman - ERFA*
Brandon King - ERFA*
Matt Lengel - ERFA*

* = Will not figure in the Compensatory pick formula.
*1 = Vollmer is not listed on the OTC website as being a UFA. However, he is as his contract wasn't tolled.

I look at this list and the likelihood of the Pats having 4 compensatory picks next year isn't as high as people think. Players have to be signed for more than the league minimum for their accrued years and the Patriots can't have any ones that off-set..

Of that list, who are the ones who are likely signing elsewhere who will sign for more than the league minimum at their position?

Almost guaranteed to sign elsewhere: Ryan and Bennett
May sign elsewhere for more than the league minimum: Harmon, Long, Floyd, Sheard.

The others I don't see signing elsewhere or getting more than the league minimum. So I don't figure them into the compensatory picks.

And yes, I'd be surprised if the Patriots lost all 6 of the guys I mentioned as signing more than the league minimums..

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Compensatory picks are not a mechanism for the owners to keep salaries down. You believing that tells me you don't fully understand how compensatory picks work.

One of the things that most people over-look is that for a player to be eligible for a compensatory pick, the team had to have made them an qualifying offer prior to the start of Free Agency. If the team doesn't make them a qualifying offer, that player will not ever count in the Compensatory pick equation. I'm not 100% certain (though I will look after this post) but I believe a qualifying offer is their previous salary +10% or the vet minimum for their accrued years, whichever is greater.

Because of the Qualifying offer, there is already a "floor" for bidding. Since teams don't actually lose the draft pick from their yearly allotment, how does it reward or incentivize them to big lower? Because it might off-set their own loss? Most teams figure that in their thinking to begin with..

Sorry, but your thought process really doesn't make sense.

The Basics and Methodology on Projecting the Compensatory Draft Picks for 2015 (and beyond) | Over the Cap

Qualifying offers only apply to those who sign after June 1. They are not needed for someone who signs in March, April, or May (see the link you provided).

Therefore, there is no floor for bidding. Additionally, MLB (and presumably the NFL) has been working for years to minimize compensatory draft picks due to salary drags and restrictions on free agency.

In the NFL's system, the compensatory draft pick is based on a player's salary. Let's take this to the extreme: Every team suddenly decides to adopt the Patriots/Ravens/49ers/Packers approach. Who signs free agents then? Agents are reaching out to GMs, GMs say they're not making an offer to that player, that player then is left out to dry. Eventually one team "caves in" and provides a lowball deal, which the free agent ultimately accepts.

The above scenario will never happen to the true elite free agents. But it would happen to the mid-tier guys and the lower-tier guys. Those players may not have a strong market in this case, and may wind up with just their only "choice" being to resign with their former team at a lowball salary.

Obviously this hasn't happened yet. But it could. If I were the NFLPA, I would be very weary of the Patriots/Ravens/49ers/Packers tactics here.

MLB has had free agency for 40 years, and over that time period compensation for lost free agents has slowly diminished. This year only 10 players were potentially eligible, and the compensation for them is significantly reduced. Every other free agent was truly free - a no-strings attached signing.

In an NFL with a hard salary cap and a salary floor, compensatory picks make no sense. Perhaps they could be offered to the elite-of-the-elite (i.e. the potential 3rd rounders) to alleviate the talent development concerns, similar to MLB, but it makes no sense otherwise to inhibit player movement the way they do.

 

[wizwor]

Seems another way of saying that Belichick is smarter than everyone else because he works within the rules more intelligently than the other teams.

Exactly. Coach plays chess while the others play checkers.

 

[DaBruinz]

Qualifying offers only apply to those who sign after June 1. They are not needed for someone who signs in March, April, or May (see the link you provided).

I understand why you think that, but you're wrong. OTC does a crappy job of talking about Adamjt13's explanations.

Teams have to make a Qualifying offer to players prior to the start of free agency. Otherwise, they don't count in the formula as a "lost player" if the player signs somewhere else.. There have been several players from the Pats that this applies to.

The June 1st "Qualifying Offer" is an entirely different entity and shouldn't be confused with initial free agency.

 

[Deus Irae]

Seems another way of saying that Belichick is smarter than everyone else because he works within the rules more intelligently than the other teams.

Not really, at least in this case. Other teams ( Baltimore, Green Bay and Pittsburgh, for starters) use the same strategy.

History of NFL Compensatory Draft Picks 

 

[Simpelton]

As for why more teams in the league don't do this: I think it's because it raises the stakes on the GM and head coach a lot.

To pull it off successfully you really have to have a very good grasp of what any given player is and what he can do for you, because you're constantly going to be shedding established assets and replacing them with new talent from the draft constantly and have to hit with enough of your picks to keep winning. I mean you have to do this stuff anyway but you have to do it more if you let a lot of your bread and butter guys walk for comp picks. That means your drafts have to be as close to airtight as humanly possible. Not many people can pull this off.

IF you're not particularly good at picking talent out of the draft and training it to work in your system the result is mediocricy.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Some teams are using option years to enhance compensatory draft picks

A league source recently pointed out that the Patriots and 49ers have been using option years on the back end of player contracts. This allows the team, if/when ready to move on, to let the contract lapse without picking up the option. Absent option language, the team has to cut the player if it wants to move on.

Maybe the other teams should learn the rules then they could do the same thing.

But, just remember that the last time a Pat told another team to "learn the rules," the League fabricated Deflategate. Now we'll have "Optiongate."

 

[neuronet]

Not really, at least in this case. Other teams ( Baltimore, Green Bay and Pittsburgh, for starters) use the same strategy.

History of NFL Compensatory Draft Picks

I was saying that if this guy is right that the Patriots are doing it better than everyone they aren't ruining parity, they are just better at going within the rules. The data you pointed out is that this guy's premise is actually wrong, that in fact the Patriots aren't piling up more comp picks than everyone else.

Maybe he would say they are piling up comp picks too intelligently and selectively, and this is just unfair.

 

[MagicMarker]

This has all be publicized on PFT as well as other sites. If I know about it and how to do it, but some NFL teams don't, that's their problem.

What the Patriots are doing is open to everybody.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

I understand why you think that, but you're wrong. OTC does a crappy job of talking about Adamjt13's explanations.

Teams have to make a Qualifying offer to players prior to the start of free agency. Otherwise, they don't count in the formula as a "lost player" if the player signs somewhere else.. There have been several players from the Pats that this applies to.

The June 1st "Qualifying Offer" is an entirely different entity and shouldn't be confused with initial free agency.

But that was a direct quote they used from AdamJT13's blog. It can be found here: AdamJT13: Search results for qualifying offer

In order to qualify for the comp equation, a player must have been a true Unrestricted Free Agent whose contract had expired or was voided after the previous season (i.e., he cannot have been released by his old team); he must sign during the UFA signing period (which ended July 22 last year); if he signs after June 1, he must have been tendered a June 1 qualifying offer by his old team; his compensatory value must be above a specific minimum amount; and he cannot have been permanently released by his new team before a certain point in the season (which seems to be after Week 10) or, possibly, before getting a certain amount of playing time, unless he was claimed off waivers by another team.

Maybe you saw it somewhere else? I tried looking at the CBA but that doesn't exactly help either:
https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows....eral/2011_Final_CBA_Searchable_Bookmarked.pdf

Article 6 Section 10 states: "Section 10. Compensatory Draft Selections: The rules and procedures regarding Compensatory Draft Selections previously agreed upon by the NFL and the NFLPA shall remain in effect, subsequent to any future changes as to which the parties may agree."

Note that the June 1 Qualifying Offer is 110% of current salary or vet minimum if coming off rookie contract.

Basically, I'm not really seeing where a pre-June 1 Qualifying Offer is required, but certainly this "previously agreed upon" agreement mentioned in 6.10 could be it. I'm just not seeing it.

 

[chasa]

Frankly I have always been confused by compensatory draft picks, so if anyone can explain why they exist I'd be curious. B

their purpose is to give the team that is losing a player at the end of a contract something.

If a team drafts/signs a player and that contract ends naturally(not cut, retired, traded, banished to the phantom zone) And another team swoops in and out bids you, you in term get compensated with a mid round draft choice.

If you lose a player, but sign a player of equal value, you in turn do NOT get an compensation, as you lose a player and gain a player.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Good post.

It's all about perspective.

If BB/Pats exploit a loophole in a rule it's generally viewed as cheating.

If anyone else does it then it's viewed as being smart.

Yea its pretty hilarious.. Harbaugh whining about how it was "clearly meant to deceive" was pure comedic gold

When we got the doors blown off of us against Miami way back with the Wildcat offense, there wasn't a single Patriot fan (or any fan) that was crying about how it was unfair

Sure, most of us felt it was a very gimmicky offense, but they beat the crap out of us with it and we knew that the nest time we played them, the team would be ready to deal with it

Instead, you have Harbaugh crying like a little girl because the Pats got 3 trick plays on them that were completely within the rules, yet fans of other teams and a lot of media still refer to that game as "another example of the Patriots long history of cheating"

The media never mentions that the Pats literally presented their formation to the refs before the game started to ensure it was a legal formation that they wouldn't be penalized for in the game.. no one EVER mentions that, but it's a pretty significant fact in exposing how butt hurt all of these people are who suggest they're always trying to "bend the rules". It's almost as funny as people using the Tuck Rule as another example of the Pats "cheating" lol

It's become easier to deal with all the noise, especially after this 5th title... I just laugh at them now because holding onto the "cheater" label is probably the only thing that allows them to sleep at night lol

It's just a sign that they've been beaten down to nothing, and thats A-OK for me

 

[stinkypete]

Look for the league to put the kaibosh on this practice soon.

 

[amazinPats]

BB has to be clever with generating draft picks because Goodell is always taking them from him!