PATS TRADE JAMIE COLLINS!!!

[RobertWeathers]

Where's this info about it being a second coming from?

I read it somewhere as well. I'm trying to find the source.

 

[Froob]

It should be every first from here on out if the Browns win the SB.

 

[BradyFTW!]

TVM is a serviceable stand-in for the principle behind the Pats trading guys they know they can't resign, and it covers the part of the equation that the "trading a first round pick for a second is bad!" folks consistently miss. On one hand I want to give Volin some credit for at least trying to tackle it in an easy-to-understand way. I kinda want to rip on him for treating a principle that's known to anyone who's ever taken a 100-level finance course like some kind of arcane, difficult-to-understand thing, but OTOH he may not be wrong to do so.

However else we feel about 3rd/4th round picks, it's cheap depth at worse. Having another one of those guys on the roster frees up more money to use on FA or extending our own guys, even if they never amount to much.

 

[Deus Irae]

So everyone and his mother is commenting about the slippage in Collins' play, his struggles against the run, and the diminishing of his playing time. Many of them (not all) had said little, or noting, prior to the trade. This is yet another good example of why people need to think for themselves, rather than always buying the ******** the (in this case, sports) media sells them.

 

[GodBrady]

So everyone and his mother is commenting about the slippage in Collins' play, his struggles against the run, and the diminishing of his playing time. Many of them (not all) had said little, or noting, prior to the trade. This is yet another good example of why people need to think for themselves, rather than always buying the ******** the (in this case, sports) media sells them.

Yes, there's suddenly an awful lot of sour grapes around here.

 

[long distance]

quick growing up ..

(no offense, jamie. good luck.)

 

[tom444]

So everyone and his mother is commenting about the slippage in Collins' play, his struggles against the run, and the diminishing of his playing time. Many of them (not all) had said little, or noting, prior to the trade. This is yet another good example of why people need to think for themselves, rather than always buying the ******** the (in this case, sports) media sells them.

Some of it is the fact that the Patriots so often find a way as the season goes on, so I think many of us adopt a wait and see policy. It's, they're not looking good here, or there, but they'll work it out. This year I haven't been so confident, and apparently I wasn't the only one who felt that way. It's always the long view with the Patriots. Can they go all the way. Sure 7-1 is great, but we know what it takes to bring another Lombardi home. They haven't looked like that kind of team yet.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

So everyone and his mother is commenting about the slippage in Collins' play, his struggles against the run, and the diminishing of his playing time. Many of them (not all) had said little, or noting, prior to the trade. This is yet another good example of why people need to think for themselves, rather than always buying the ******** the (in this case, sports) media sells them.

I certainly won't pretend I saw a decline in his play, but I hadn't noticed him all that much this season outside of the Houston game.

 

[upstater1]

No, in that case we get Cleveland's 2018 4th rounder. Cleveland doesn't even have a 4th in 2017. They already traded it.

Why wouldn't it be a 3rd rounder in 2018? I mean, why drop a round and a year if no compensatory pick is awarded?

 

[Shockt327]

So, it's looking like the trade is this:
If Collins signs with Cleveland, they send the Pats their 2017 2nd round pick
If Collins doesn't sign and the Browns get a 3rd round comp for Mack, then the Patriots get that.
If Collins doesn't sign and the Browns don't get a 3rd round comp, then the Patriots get a 2018 4th

The last one doesn't add up, honestly, but that's what we've had reported.

Where are you getting this info from?

Where's this info about it being a second coming from?

Yeah, I saw a reference to a 3rd or a "conditional 2nd Rd pick" this morning while reading the 7 News scroll bar when the Today Show was on. I've been looking for news to confirm this, but I didn't find any other reference to a 2nd so far. I just assumed it was a mistake; so do we know where it's coming from?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Yeah, I saw a reference to a 3rd or a "conditional 2nd Rd pick" this morning while reading the 7 News scroll bar when the Today Show was on. I've been looking for news to confirm this, but I didn't find any other reference to a 2nd so far. I just assumed it was a mistake; so do we know where it's coming from?

Getting Cleveland's 2nd round pick would make me very okay with this trade. So far, I've been not liking the trade based on the comp 3rd or 4th compensation, and figuring there must be more to it in terms of Belichick needing to deliver a message or there being more compensation than reported. Getting a 2nd in the event that Collins is extended covers that.

 

[Xerostomia]

Yes, there's suddenly an awful lot of sour grapes around here.

I'll give a baseball analogy as I understand that better. On the Dbacks, we have a player named Yasmany Tomas. Last year hit 30HR, 30doubles and 80 RBI's. Despite that he provided negative WAR for the team. Basically he was horrible defensively, and his other at bats when he got an out were very poor at bats.

The casual fan is thinking wow, this guy is great, who in their right mind would even think about trading such a player who is young (I think 25) and hits the ball hard and fills the stat page. The Sabermetrics guy is saying he is providing negative value to the team, and thus subtracting him from the team and potentially replacing him with anyone who plays above average defense will be an upgrade.

I know almost nothing about football sabermetrics, but I know enough (or trust) BB, that he knows the 'real' truth about a player. Collins is very cheap, this year, Collins has been a 'pro-bowl' caliber player, and yet BB does not feel he provides value to the team. In a year where we are likely to be one of 4 standing in the end, Collins likely is an impact player and yet BB does not want him on the team.

It is conjecture on my part trying to rationalize why this trade happened, and the 'media' is trying to rationalize it as well, because most people will agree that BB is smarter (at football) than probably 99+% of everyone else, thus we are trying to find the 'truth' because BB and the Patriots will never disclose the truth. I would not call that sour grapes.

 

[PlainOldEd]

Getting Cleveland's 2nd round pick would make me very okay with this trade. So far, I've been not liking the trade based on the comp 3rd or 4th compensation, and figuring there must be more to it in terms of Belichick needing to deliver a message or there being more compensation than reported. Getting a 2nd in the event that Collins is extended covers that.

Especially considering that the browns 2nd is likely to be #33. But this is the first I have heard of this, is the source reliable?

 

[long distance]

Getting Cleveland's 2nd round pick would make me very okay with this trade. So far, I've been not liking the trade based on the comp 3rd or 4th compensation, and figuring there must be more to it in terms of Belichick needing to deliver a message or there being more compensation than reported. Getting a 2nd in the event that Collins is extended covers that.

I guess it would have to be V'M money to keep him there .. (he said he wants to return to the South etc.)
Cleveland second would be just too much. Its like getting another 1st NE.
We would have two picks one after another at the bottom of 1st.

.

 

[Froob]

So everyone and his mother is commenting about the slippage in Collins' play, his struggles against the run, and the diminishing of his playing time. Many of them (not all) had said little, or noting, prior to the trade. This is yet another good example of why people need to think for themselves, rather than always buying the ******** the (in this case, sports) media sells them.

What's your take? Don't think I've seen it yet on Collins play this year. Think people do tend to follow the herd.

 

[AvocadoIceCream]

The best offense of all-time putting up 14 may have had something to do with losing Super Bowl XLII. As does the 32 PPG offense putting up 17 (plus handing the Giants a safety) in Super Bowl XLVI.

Yes that's why you need to have a defense who can hold a team to 14 or 17 in a big game like that. Can't always expect 12 to bail you out

 

[PF_SU]

Yes that's why you need to have a defense who can hold a team to 14 or 17 in a big game like that. Can't always expect 12 to bail you out

In 50 Super Bowls only four teams have won the game while scoring 17 or less. No team's ever won scoring less than 16. In the last 40 years there is only one team that won the Super Bowl while scoring less than 20 points: the 2007 New York Giants.

 

[TBR]

So, it's looking like the trade is this:
If Collins signs with Cleveland, they send the Pats their 2017 2nd round pick
If Collins doesn't sign and the Browns get a 3rd round comp for Mack, then the Patriots get that.
If Collins doesn't sign and the Browns don't get a 3rd round comp, then the Patriots get a 2018 4th

The last one doesn't add up, honestly, but that's what we've had reported.

There's a 2nd round pick in play now? Everything I've seen so far involved round 3.

 

[Deus Irae]

What's your take? Don't think I've seen it yet on Collins play this year. Think people do tend to follow the herd.

Probably a combination of injury, contract distraction, teams having the book on him (good, but overrated in pass defense, excellent in run pursuit and blitzing, weak head on against the run), and the team using him in a suboptimal manner.

I would guess that all of those have played a part.

 

[Shockt327]

There's a 2nd round pick in play now? Everything I've seen so far involved round 3.

Don't get your hopes up. Still no confirmation.