Pats "TOP" priorty

[Box_O_Rocks]

I think the Pats should trade for a long snapper. It's on if their top needs.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/13/198929-pats-top-priorty.html

Whom did you have in mind?

 

[DaBruinz]

First off, there is a little button on the screen with the word "QUOTE" in it. Works wonders..

The Patriots didn't apply as much pressure as they did last season, there some games where they were clearly challenged in that area, but the lack of QB pressure wasn't the reason they couldn't stop the TE down the seam, or the reason Ellis couldn't cover anybody. The LB's and safeties just didn't cover the TE well, and it cost us the Jets game. Ellis is just not a starting CB in the NFL. It isn't his fault, he just can't play the position at a high enough level to compete on a regular basis.

The Pats COULD and did, on numerous occasions, stop the TE down the seam. There is one game that sticks out and that is the Jets game, where they had some miscommunication between the OLB who lined up opposite Keller and the MLB who was playing in the the Pats 3-3-5 Nickel Package. It happened when both Vrabel and Woods were there.

As for Ellis "just not being a staring CB in the NFL" starting for more than 2 years on THIS team should tell you otherwise. Just because you don't care for reality doesn't mean its not true.

Unfortunately, I cannot locate DB rankings. On NFL.com he isn't listed in the top 50 fabntacy DB's, but I am not a fantacy guy so those rankings mean nothing to me. All I know is what I see, and I see Ellis get burnt often. He got thrown at as often as the CB on the other side got thrown at, and that is not a good sign.

You are using Fantasy Defensive back ratings to determine of Hobbs is a good player? Dude, you just lost ANY credibility that you might have had.

I never said I was a talent evaluator, however, Wilhite and Wheatly didn't do what Belichick had hoped they would do.

How the hell do you know that Wheatley and Wilhite didn't do what Belichick hoped they would do? How can you even sit there and say that garbage with a straight face?

Commenting on their play and making claims as to whether players were meeting expectations is attempting to evaluate the talent.

Slater was a turnover waiting to happen all season and considering his speed he didn't make a whole lot of positive plays on ST.

Slater made quite a few plays on special teams. Players aren't just getting the tackle. Plays include shutting down running lanes and forcing the return man into the coverage. He also had some gaffs. That happens with rookies. Not everyone comes in and is instantly a friggin Pro-bowler.

Gyton had a very good year, but he was an UFA. He is testiment to the scouting department. I thought Crable was going to be the steal of the draft, but he ended up living up to his rep coming out of Michigan, lots of talent, but unmotivated.

Why are you making shi!t up? Where the hell do you get that Crable was unmotivated? He was friggin injured all year.

Rudd, O'Connell who knows what they will do. I repeat what I stated; this is a very good team, except for the defensive backs. Put a decent DB in the starting lineup and move Ellis to the weak side and we are probably in the playoffs. Put two decent CB's in the backfield and use Ellis as a nickle and we are still playing football.

You can repeat what you stated all you want. You are talking out your rear end on most, if not all of it. From your garbage about Wheatley and Wilhite to the crap about Crable to your bogus claim that the Patriot would be still playing football if not for Ellis Hobbs.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Whom did you have in mind?

I don't care, whoever the top long snapper is. I want a Pro Bowler long snapper. So let's use a first day pick on one.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I don't care, whoever the top long snapper is. I want a Pro Bowler long snapper. So let's use a first day pick on one.

Set you draft board accordingly.

 

[Silverquick]

I just wanted to get a quick word in here.

In my own opinion our top priority ought to be a playmaking DB that can force turnovers, but deep inside something tells me that this year we will be seeing conservative picks. I could be wrong, no doubt, but somehow I feel like linemen (on both sides) will be a big part of our draft this year.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

First off, there is a little button on the screen with the word "QUOTE" in it. Works wonders..



The Pats COULD and did, on numerous occasions, stop the TE down the seam. There is one game that sticks out and that is the Jets game, where they had some miscommunication between the OLB who lined up opposite Keller and the MLB who was playing in the the Pats 3-3-5 Nickel Package. It happened when both Vrabel and Woods were there.

As for Ellis "just not being a staring CB in the NFL" starting for more than 2 years on THIS team should tell you otherwise. Just because you don't care for reality doesn't mean its not true.



You are using Fantasy Defensive back ratings to determine of Hobbs is a good player? Dude, you just lost ANY credibility that you might have had.



How the hell do you know that Wheatley and Wilhite didn't do what Belichick hoped they would do? How can you even sit there and say that garbage with a straight face?

Commenting on their play and making claims as to whether players were meeting expectations is attempting to evaluate the talent.


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Slater made quite a few plays on special teams. Players aren't just getting the tackle. Plays include shutting down running lanes and forcing the return man into the coverage. He also had some gaffs. That happens with rookies. Not everyone comes in and is instantly a friggin Pro-bowler.

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Why are you making shi!t up? Where the hell do you get that Crable was unmotivated? He was friggin injured all year.

[/COLOR]

You can repeat what you stated all you want. You are talking out your rear end on most, if not all of it. From your garbage about Wheatley and Wilhite to the crap about Crable to your bogus claim that the Patriot would be still playing football if not for Ellis Hobbs.

All I want to do is discuss what the Pats need. All year there were two constants, the inability to stop the seam route and the inability of the defensive secondary to make a big play. If you had watched the games, instead of breaking down film, you would have noticed these short comings. The thing is, it is your opinions that are questionable here. All I did was lay out some stats.

1) That Ellis has started for two seasons points to a failure in talent evaluation on the Patriots part. They tried to replace him, and they tried to draft his replacements and neither approach has worked. He just isn't that good. Tough kid, big head, not talented enough to be a #1.

2) Crable was inactive for the first half of the season, no mention of injury. Even when he had an opportunity, Eric Alexander got playing time over him. I like Shawn Crable, but the fact remains that he is a first round talent who didn't always show up on game day in college. That was the scouting report and that was what happened here. The shin injury happened in practice because he has never been active on gameday. A third rounder should be contributing on Sunday, even in his rookie year.

3) Matthew Slater didn't show up on the stat sheet, unless it was for fumbling a kickoff or a punt. He seems like a nice kid, and i hope he makes it, but his season was disappointing.


Seems the fantacy geeks feel the same way about Ellis as I do. I not a fantacy guy, but since money is usually on the line their research is usually pretty good. You can push that self-important quasi-expert attitude all you want, when game day doesn't prove your point telling people how much smarter you are then they are doesn't make your opinions any more believable.

This team should still be playing this Sunday. The reason they aren't is because their secondary was horrible. Belichick tried to draft Ellis out of the starting lineup buut the rookies didn't step up and take the jobs. Belichick will try to draft him out of the starting lineup again this year. He plays hard, but eventually will spontaniously combust.

 

[DaBruinz]

Being the OP of this thread, I can tell you that you misunderstood the purpose of this thread from the get go. This thread was NOT about what the Pats needed. It was about how the Pats figured out the NEED portion of their Best Value Available equation.

All I want to do is discuss what the Pats need. All year there were two constants, the inability to stop the seam route and the inability of the defensive secondary to make a big play. If you had watched the games, instead of breaking down film, you would have noticed these short comings. The thing is, it is your opinions that are questionable here. All I did was lay out some stats.

You didn't lay out anything for stats. Nothing. As for your insinuation that the Pats couldn't stop the seam route or that the Secondary couldn't make a big play, again, your wrong. There were plenty of times they did both.

As for watching the game vs. "breaking down film" are you purposely being obtuse? Seriously. I've watched every game at least twice straight through and then spent time re-watching plays.

The two biggest issues was consistent pressure on the QB and coverage by the LBers.

1) That Ellis has started for two seasons points to a failure in talent evaluation on the Patriots part. They tried to replace him, and they tried to draft his replacements and neither approach has worked. He just isn't that good. Tough kid, big head, not talented enough to be a #1.

HUH? A failure in talent evaluation? Weren't you the one claiming you don't evaluate talent. If you don't evaluate talent, then how can you claim that the Pats failed in evaluating Hobbs? You can't even keep your story straight.

2) Crable was inactive for the first half of the season, no mention of injury. Even when he had an opportunity, Eric Alexander got playing time over him. I like Shawn Crable, but the fact remains that he is a first round talent who didn't always show up on game day in college. That was the scouting report and that was what happened here. The shin injury happened in practice because he has never been active on gameday. A third rounder should be contributing on Sunday, even in his rookie year.

You really should go and check your facts before running your mouth and proving to EVERYONE you don't know what you are talking about. First of all, Eric Alexander is an ILB while Crable is an OLB. Secondly, Alexander played all of ONE game before landing on the IR. Third, there are only so many players who can dress each week. The Pats had 3 OLBs ahead of Crable who were suiting up each week. Fourth, Crable doesn't play on special teams, so others were put ahead of him. Fifth, I don't know what "scouting report" you looked at, but that wasn't what was in his draft profile. There was nothing about him not always showing up for games. Personally, with all the other BS you've spouted, this one seems to fall in there with it.

3) Matthew Slater didn't show up on the stat sheet, unless it was for fumbling a kickoff or a punt. He seems like a nice kid, and i hope he makes it, but his season was disappointing.

The stats sheet doesn't show everything. As I mentioned. Shutting down your lane so that another player gets there is just as important as making the tackle yourself. OH, and Slater had 12 tackles this year. Also, according to NFL.com, Slater never returned a punt. He fumbled a kick and that was it. Yes, he had the normal ups and downs of a rookie, but he definitely wasn't a failure like you make him out to be.

Seems the fantacy geeks feel the same way about Ellis as I do. I not a fantacy guy, but since money is usually on the line their research is usually pretty good. You can push that self-important quasi-expert attitude all you want, when game day doesn't prove your point telling people how much smarter you are then they are doesn't make your opinions any more believable.

Game day DOES prove my point. It doesn't prove yours, though. All you've done is throw up BS and basically LIE the entire time. You've made claims that are patently false. If anyone isn't believable here, its your sorry arse.

This team should still be playing this Sunday. The reason they aren't is because their secondary was horrible. Belichick tried to draft Ellis out of the starting lineup buut the rookies didn't step up and take the jobs. Belichick will try to draft him out of the starting lineup again this year. He plays hard, but eventually will spontaniously combust.

Wrong. The reason they aren't playing is because they lost a couple of games they shouldn't have. Because their 3rd down defense, as a whole, was poor all year. Its pure ignorance for you to think that BB tried to draft Hobbs out of the starting line-up. Especially considering that the Patriots just lost 2 CBs this past off-season. If they'd been trying to "draft" Hobbs out of the starting line-up, they wouldn't have drafted O'Connell. They'd have gone with another CB.

 

[patchick]

Being the OP of this thread, I can tell you that you misunderstood the purpose of this thread from the get go. This thread was NOT about what the Pats needed. It was about how the Pats figured out the NEED portion of their Best Value Available equation.

DaBruinz, it occurs to me (far, far too late, alas), that a lot of the nonsense in this thread owes to the title. There's a big difference between figuring out "the need portion of the Patriot's total value equation" vs. "the Pats' TOP priority."

Let this be a lesson to all thread starters: think through your titles very, very carefully. They're your topic statements, and people will respond to them as much as to you.

 

[RayClay]

Now, I KNOW people are going to go into their tirades because I have pass-rushing OLB as the 6th need on the team. That's how I see it based on the personnel they have going forward and based on how BB likes to bring in players 1 year before they will need them.

Or in the case of Mayo, two years after they needed them.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Have you read Patriots Reign? How about Management Secrets of the New England Patriots Vol. 1 & 2? How about any of the other books that have come out on the Patriots? No? You should. Because you'd learn a lot on how the Pats draft, how they review players, how they set up their draft boards and such.

The Patriots 3-4 2 gap defense is predicated on 2 things. The D-line controlling the gaps and the LBers stuffing those gaps or shooting them to bring pressure on the QB. If you review the years when the Pats defense was better, you'll see they were able to bring pressure from any of the 4 LBer positions on any given play. They were unable to do that this year. Mainly because they didn't have the personnel to do it or the personnel they had were too raw for the coaches to feel comfortable doing it.

The Patriots getting pressure from the front seven, makes the lives of the DBs easier. Because pressuring the QB results in more errant throws and more interceptions.

Do they need to look at the positions you mentioned? Yep. But, the reality is that drafting only for need, as you suggested, will not improve your team. Its short term thinking and it usually causes your franchise more problems than not.

I can guarantee you that the people such as myself, BOR, MG, and others have watched and re-watched games and understand more about how the Patriots do and don't do things than the average fans. We aren't Piople or Belichick by any stretch of the imagination, but we are more learned than many of the people who post on this board.

i'm not questioning your ability to dissect the patriots system. when you have ellis hobbs as your best corner, you have to address that. when your best safety may retire, you have to address that. i though our linebackers and DE were effective this year. We have one of the best front 7s in all of the league. With Mayo getting even better next year, that will be a formidible front. i have more confidence in Seymour, Warren, WIlfork, Vrabel, Mayo, Thomas and guys like Guyton coming off the bench than I do with Hobbs, J. Sanders, Rodney, Merriweather. i really think you are over thinking this. the situation in the secondary is dire. unless you are going to sign someone at these position, i think our first day picks in the draft have to focus on them along with OL.

 

[DaBruinz]

i'm not questioning your ability to dissect the patriots system. when you have ellis hobbs as your best corner, you have to address that. when your best safety may retire, you have to address that. i though our linebackers and DE were effective this year. We have one of the best front 7s in all of the league. With Mayo getting even better next year, that will be a formidible front. i have more confidence in Seymour, Warren, WIlfork, Vrabel, Mayo, Thomas and guys like Guyton coming off the bench than I do with Hobbs, J. Sanders, Rodney, Merriweather. i really think you are over thinking this. the situation in the secondary is dire. unless you are going to sign someone at these position, i think our first day picks in the draft have to focus on them along with OL.

You clearly don't understand what this thread was about. So, everything you've said, while valid, doesn't apply to the topic.

Just because you and others like you underestimate Hobbs ability it doesn't mean that I do. Hobbs has proven he is a legitimate starter in the league.

And, I'm sorry, I disagree with you about the front 7. It wasn't one of the best this year. Not even close. Not with Warren playing hurt most of the year. And then losing Thomas and Woods. And, while Mayo did well and won the DROY, he's got a long way to go. As for Bruschi, I love the guy. He's all heart. But he can't rush the passer anymore and he's not as good in coverage the way he was. And Vrabel played hurt much of the year as well.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

You clearly don't understand what this thread was about. So, everything you've said, while valid, doesn't apply to the topic.

Just because you and others like you underestimate Hobbs ability it doesn't mean that I do. Hobbs has proven he is a legitimate starter in the league.

And, I'm sorry, I disagree with you about the front 7. It wasn't one of the best this year. Not even close. Not with Warren playing hurt most of the year. And then losing Thomas and Woods. And, while Mayo did well and won the DROY, he's got a long way to go. As for Bruschi, I love the guy. He's all heart. But he can't rush the passer anymore and he's not as good in coverage the way he was. And Vrabel played hurt much of the year as well.

so this thread isn't about the pats "top" priority in the draft? well obviously the front 7 suffered when a a bunch of them went on IR. If you want to draft for depth in those positions, you can make that argument. however, the pats last year in the draft went went with some need players because they clearly needed CB and LBs. They got those with Mayo, Crable, Wilhite and Wheatley. I don't think it's wise to stick to a hard and fast rule that you always draft for value. sometimes, the situation calls for filling in major gaps. no one is afraid of our secondary anymore. once upon a time we had a younger rodney/milloy and law/asante roaming in the secondary. why is it that we haven't been good on third down? why was favre able to complete a 3 and 11? why was kevin boss able to run 40 yards in the SB when rodney should have tackled him only for a 10 yard gain? i just don't see the front 7 as a major issue. you may be right. they may stick to their ways of drafting for value, but i'm not sure that's the wisest thing this year.

 

[patchick]

so this thread isn't about the pats "top" priority in the draft?

Alas, no -- the title didn't match the intent, which has led to nothing but arguments. Anybody object if I just close this misbegotten thread and we try again?

 

[DaBruinz]

so this thread isn't about the pats "top" priority in the draft? well obviously the front 7 suffered when a a bunch of them went on IR. If you want to draft for depth in those positions, you can make that argument. however, the pats last year in the draft went went with some need players because they clearly needed CB and LBs. They got those with Mayo, Crable, Wilhite and Wheatley. I don't think it's wise to stick to a hard and fast rule that you always draft for value. sometimes, the situation calls for filling in major gaps. no one is afraid of our secondary anymore. once upon a time we had a younger rodney/milloy and law/asante roaming in the secondary. why is it that we haven't been good on third down? why was favre able to complete a 3 and 11? why was kevin boss able to run 40 yards in the SB when rodney should have tackled him only for a 10 yard gain? i just don't see the front 7 as a major issue. you may be right. they may stick to their ways of drafting for value, but i'm not sure that's the wisest thing this year.

The Patriots, under Pioli and Belichick, have always drafted based on VALUE. Need is just part of that equation.

The Pats weren't good on 3rd downs because of the variety of rookies they had playing late in the season.

The Pats weren't able to cover Keller in the Jets game because of the miscommunication between the OLB and MLB. Again, one was a rookie.

How about the fact that the run defense was mediocre at best?

You can say that the front 7 isn't an issue, but you'd be overlooking many glaring issues.

 

[DaBruinz]

Alas, no -- the title didn't match the intent, which has led to nothing but arguments. Anybody object if I just close this misbegotten thread and we try again?

There was a reason I put the word TOP in quotations. It was to signify that it wasn't really what the word meant.