Patriots Sign Demaryius Thomas

[Deus Irae]

You and I discussed this before but I’m not getting into it with you again. Players get interfered with all the time and make catches. The contact was not enough to say the catch was impossible so it’s not a valid excuse.

Impossible is irrelevant. It was a non-called DPI penalty, not a drop.

NFL admits officials blew a fourth-quarter pass interference call in the Super Bowl that helped the Patriots
https://www.prosportsdaily.com/arti...per-bowl-that-helped-the-patriots-560192.html
It doesn't matter how many times you erroneously call it a drop. It's still not going to have been a drop.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Impossible is irrelevant. It was a non-called DPI penalty, not a drop.

NFL admits officials blew a fourth-quarter pass interference call in the Super Bowl that helped the Patriots
It doesn't matter how many times you erroneously call it a drop. It's still not going to have been a drop.

The only way we can truly settle this is if @mosslost creates a thread/poll.

 

[Steve102]

Looks like defended passes to me.

Don't take my word for it. The Playmaker says he should have made both plays. The discussion starts at 35 min mark, Irvin weighs in at 36:05.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Delete.

 

[patfanken]

Don't take my word for it. The Playmaker says he should have made both plays. The discussion starts at 35 min mark, Irvin weighs in at 36:05.

Using Micheal Irvin as a source for any argument is a mistake. Michael Irivin thinks that any pass that touched his hands is one he should catch, and thus he thinks every other receiver should be the same, EVEN though he certainly didn't catch all the passed that touched his hands.

This all goes back to the question of whether dropped fantastic catches are the same as just drops. The famed Welker superbowl clinching drop is the best example. If he catches that pass it would have been a "fantastic catch". He didn't, but has been cast forever as a goat for not making a fantastic catch.

In both cases in the Rams superbowl a case can be made that Cooks COULD have made those catches, but if he HAD made them they would have been "fantastic catches" given the plays the defenders made on them. I would never BLAME Cooks, even if I were a Rams fan. Just like I can't blame him for getting a concussion in the previous superbowl.

I liked Cooks as a receiver. IIRC he now has had 4 straight 1000 yd seasons for 3 different teams. THAT's impressive. However I think we did the absolute right thing in trading him to the Rams, since Bill would have NEVER given him anything close to what the Rams did....and what we got back for him will be more impactfull going forward than anything he could have brought us as a WR....in THIS offense. It was a good deal for both parties.

But I thought this thread was about DT?

 

[Steve102]

Using Micheal Irvin as a source for any argument is a mistake. Michael Irivin thinks that any pass that touched his hands is one he should catch, and thus he thinks every other receiver should be the same, EVEN though he certainly didn't catch all the passed that touched his hands.

This all goes back to the question of whether dropped fantastic catches are the same as just drops. The famed Welker superbowl clinching drop is the best example. If he catches that pass it would have been a "fantastic catch". He didn't, but has been cast forever as a goat for not making a fantastic catch.

In both cases in the Rams superbowl a case can be made that Cooks COULD have made those catches, but if he HAD made them they would have been "fantastic catches" given the plays the defenders made on them. I would never BLAME Cooks, even if I were a Rams fan. Just like I can't blame him for getting a concussion in the previous superbowl.

I liked Cooks as a receiver. IIRC he now has had 4 straight 1000 yd seasons for 3 different teams. THAT's impressive. However I think we did the absolute right thing in trading him to the Rams, since Bill would have NEVER given him anything close to what the Rams did....and what we got back for him will be more impactfull going forward than anything he could have brought us as a WR....in THIS offense. It was a good deal for both parties.

But I thought this thread was about DT?

I used it because he 1) validated my point and 2) is a funny bastard. I will say, in my defense, he played at the highest level and played well when it mattered most. I grant you he's a blowhard of biblical proportions, but I will take that in this instance. My son and I were dying with laughter watching him break this down and then when they called him on it when they showed him a clip of Deion Sanders doing the same exact thing, which makes your point as accurately as possible.

Ok, let's get back to DT.

 

[Wheelman]

Don't take my word for it. The Playmaker says he should have made both plays. The discussion starts at 35 min mark, Irvin weighs in at 36:05.

I don't give a rats ass what they think he should do. I take Cooks strength and limitations as they are and don't put unrealistic expectations on a player.

 

[Pats2000]

Impossible is irrelevant. It was a non-called DPI penalty, not a drop.

NFL admits officials blew a fourth-quarter pass interference call in the Super Bowl that helped the Patriots
It doesn't matter how many times you erroneously call it a drop. It's still not going to have been a drop.

That's crafty corner play, getting the left hand out of view of the officials. I don't know how defenders are going to stop any pass plays with everything stacked against them now

 

[Pats2000]

Using Micheal Irvin as a source for any argument is a mistake. Michael Irivin thinks that any pass that touched his hands is one he should catch, and thus he thinks every other receiver should be the same, EVEN though he certainly didn't catch all the passed that touched his hands.

This all goes back to the question of whether dropped fantastic catches are the same as just drops. The famed Welker superbowl clinching drop is the best example. If he catches that pass it would have been a "fantastic catch". He didn't, but has been cast forever as a goat for not making a fantastic catch.

In both cases in the Rams superbowl a case can be made that Cooks COULD have made those catches, but if he HAD made them they would have been "fantastic catches" given the plays the defenders made on them. I would never BLAME Cooks, even if I were a Rams fan. Just like I can't blame him for getting a concussion in the previous superbowl.

I liked Cooks as a receiver. IIRC he now has had 4 straight 1000 yd seasons for 3 different teams. THAT's impressive. However I think we did the absolute right thing in trading him to the Rams, since Bill would have NEVER given him anything close to what the Rams did....and what we got back for him will be more impactfull going forward than anything he could have brought us as a WR....in THIS offense. It was a good deal for both parties.

But I thought this thread was about DT?

BB got rid of cooks because he has to be wide open to catch anything. He can't catch a contested ball to save his life.

That's not the kind of #1 receiver you want.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

That's crafty corner play, getting the left hand out of view of the officials. I don't know how defenders are going to stop any pass plays with everything stacked against them now

The reality is a good player knows how to get the edge by doing 'things' that don't get a flag thrown. An OL who knows how to hold right, a WR who knows how to push off right, a CB who knows how to hook right etc etc. I'm sure it's SOP for teams to train not on what's against the rules but what will get the flag.

The Patriots and Patriots' opponents have gotten gifts and shafts from the refs. It's just part of the game (certainly part of SBs). But I'm more at ease when it's a non call. I'd rather the refs 'let them play' versus throw a flag with 2 minutes to go for 'a play' that is happening all over the field throughout the game. A ref has to make a difficult instant judgment on rules like DPI/OPI that are occur in almost the blink of an eye and are heavily open to interpretation. Ultimately I think we all really want the refs to lean toward 'let them play' versus in that instant judgment moment leaning toward throwing the flag (and getting it wrong or it being an arbitrary uneven application of the rule). Yes this means the Patriots will get shafted sometime and sometime the Patriots will benefit. It's not perfect but it's better than the alternate IMHO.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

BB got rid of cooks because he has to be wide open to catch anything. He can't catch a contested ball to save his life.

That's not the kind of #1 receiver you want.

I thought cooks was thrown overboard for letting us down in the super bowl!

 

[luuked]

They were both defended passes, Cooks did everything he could in both cases based on his abilities. Coming up short in big moments to me is when you don't do what you're capable of doing.

Strong disagree.

Cooks waited for the ball to arrive on the JMac breakup instead of being more proactive mostly because he didnt even have enough awareness to realize a DB was coming. Despite all the time in the world.

On the pass breakup by Harmon/Gilmore he dropped a catchable ball. Yes, there was hand fighting with Gilmore but you have this on almost every pass. And once the ball actually arrived he had both hands available but just could not secure it and dropped it even before Harmon touched him. It was a perfectly thrown ball.

And the INT is also partly on him. I have alluded to that in a previous post but his lack of urgency to OPI Gilmore was a joke and very reminiscent of him showing the same lack of awareness in our loss at Miami in 2017 on a Brady throw down towards the sideline that got intercepted.

Not something you would want from a WR who has a cap hit of 15.3m this year.

 

[Nehalem]

BB got rid of cooks because he has to be wide open to catch anything. He can't catch a contested ball to save his life.

That's not the kind of #1 receiver you want.

And the Saints dumped him the year before.

I believe Brandin Cooks is the only player in NFL history to have 1000 yards receiving 3 years in a row with 3 different teams. That says something.

 

[50-yard-line]

I'm not going to get into the Cooks debate other than to say that he's a damned fine receiver, capable of 1000 yards year after year - but I wouldn't pay him that kind of money, because I prefer BB's method of team-building. You have to be a Randy Moss/Julio Jones/Calvin Johnson-like beast to command what top WRs are getting today, in my opinion, because the rest of that pack simply aren't THAT much better than those available at a lower tier.

My opinion.

As far as the Pats go, the ??????? is obviously Gordon, and it's too bad that he's such a dilemma, because if he wasn't, if you could reasonably count on Gordon-Edelman-Dorsett-Thomas(some other vet, some rookie), that's way more than okay. You've got two potential 1,000-yard receivers who play different and complimentary games at the top, a burner with a fantastic catch rate at #3. There are a couple of teams, sure - like the Browns - who can boast a better WR corps, but not that many. And none of them have Tom Brady, Josh McDaniel, that running back trio and a top-5 OL to go along with it.

If Gordon could be counted on, the Pats should take be looking at WR in the draft as a developmental, not immediate need problem.

As an aside, regarding TEs, I played around with FANSPEAK yesterday (I like to try out the new boards that come on - used PFF). I got Hockensen in the 1st, Fant in the 2nd, McGary in the 2nd, Mack Wilson in the 3rd, then had a choice between Amani Hooker and Taylor Rapp...and even though I think Rapp is better, I took Hooker, just so Iowa could be the new Rutgers.

I find that I like PFF now, lol.

 

[Pats2000]

I thought cooks was thrown overboard for letting us down in the super bowl!

The SB was the icing on the cake. How you going to try to hurdle someone 7 inches taller than you and run around in a circle until someone breaks your jaw?

 

[Wheelman]

Strong disagree.

Cooks waited for the ball to arrive on the JMac breakup instead of being more proactive mostly because he didnt even have enough awareness to realize a DB was coming. Despite all the time in the world.

On the pass breakup by Harmon/Gilmore he dropped a catchable ball. Yes, there was hand fighting with Gilmore but you have this on almost every pass. And once the ball actually arrived he had both hands available but just could not secure it and dropped it even before Harmon touched him. It was a perfectly thrown ball.

And the INT is also partly on him. I have alluded to that in a previous post but his lack of urgency to OPI Gilmore was a joke and very reminiscent of him showing the same lack of awareness in our loss at Miami in 2017 on a Brady throw down towards the sideline that got intercepted.

Not something you would want from a WR who has a cap hit of 15.3m this year.

Why don't you watch that break up again. There was no hand fighting. Gilmore put his hand on Cooks arm at the last moment and held it down just enough so Cooks couldn't secure it with two hands.

I think you should watch the Gilmore INT in real time, the 1st replay they show. Watch Cooks turn his head, sees the ball in the air and reacts immediately to try to throw Gilmore down only he whiffed. There wasn't anything he could do. There was little time to react. That play was on McVay for not devising an answer to cover zero blitz(if Hoyer is right). With a small assist from Goff for not making a better decision against pressure.

I just watched Xavien Howard 1st INT in that Miami game. Cooks was going to break up the pass, he was there ready for it until Howard pushed off. Cooks was going for the breakup, should Cooks just commit OPI everytime instead of trying to break up the pass? I don't think you would like that.

The point I made in my previous posts was that coming up short in big games is not measured by how much you're paid but by not performing up to your abilities. I agree he's overpaid, but please stop putting unrealistic expectations on him. Instead of piling on Cooks, pile on the Rams for paying him that much. I don't think anyone ever calls Cooks the best receiver in the game like people erroneously call Kelce the best tight end in the game. So why critique Cooks for something he's not capable of doing?

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

And the Saints dumped him the year before.

I believe Brandin Cooks is the only player in NFL history to have 1000 yards receiving 3 years in a row with 3 different teams. That says something.

He’s a really good #2 wr who was starting to command #1 wr money.

 

[luuked]

Why don't you watch that break up again. There was no hand fighting. Gilmore put his hand on Cooks arm at the last moment and held it down just enough so Cooks couldn't secure it with two hands.

I watched this scene multiple times and have broken it down just a few weeks ago yet another time when that stupid conversation about coaches being able to challenge PI started. What you are writing is simply not true. The pass was right in the basket, and he had both hands available to secure it but failed:



This is a dropped ball.

I think you should watch the Gilmore INT in real time, the 1st replay they show. Watch Cooks turn his head, sees the ball in the air and reacts immediately to try to throw Gilmore down only he whiffed. There wasn't anything he could do. There was little time to react. That play was on McVay for not devising an answer to cover zero blitz(if Hoyer is right). With a small assist from Goff for not making a better decision against pressure.

What do you mean there was nothing he can do ? Just ****ing body check Gilmore into his ribs who cares about any kind of penalty that is called there.

My point is not that he failed to break up the pass but his lack of effort trying to break it up.

I just watched Xavien Howard 1st INT in that Miami game. Cooks was going to break up the pass, he was there ready for it until Howard pushed off. Cooks was going for the breakup, should Cooks just commit OPI everytime instead of trying to break up the pass? I don't think you would like that.

Of course OPI is preferable to an INT. I applaud you for going back and checking it out. I actually found a short conversation with Matt Chatham on Twitter about that play back then:





Again, my issue is not that he failed to break it up but the lack of trying. He didnt have enough awareness until it was too late and then showed a half-ass effort to do something. Hell just bearhug the Dolphins player. Anything.

The point I made in my previous posts was that coming up short in big games is not measured by how much you're paid but by not performing up to your abilities. I agree he's overpaid, but please stop putting unrealistic expectations on him. Instead of piling on Cooks, pile on the Rams for paying him that much. I don't think anyone ever calls Cooks the best receiver in the game like people erroneously call Kelce the best tight end in the game. So why critique Cooks for something he's not capable of doing?

The bigger your contract the more value you have to bring to the team to make it worth the resources that are put into you. Him coming up short on two passes that should have been TDs in the SB comes after last years SB clown show where he first failed to gain an easy first down to instead jump **** first into an opponents face and then perform a comedy routine that got him knocked out.

That is the impression he is leaving in the bigger games. The Rams might be fine with what he is bringing to the table for that amount. But it definitely didnt cut it here and he got shipped out when an opportunity came up.

Nobody is saying he is a bad player. But his skillset and lack of awareness just doesnt fit the the pricetag to play in NE.

 

[luuked]

He’s a really good #2 wr who was starting to command #1 wr money.

Bingo. He really is the ideal complimentary piece for any offense that opens up a lot of space for his teammates.

That is the crux with him on a non-rookie deal. Too expensive to be a a decoy 70% of the time but too limited to be the focal point.

 

[Wheelman]

I watched this scene multiple times and have broken it down just a few weeks ago yet another time when that stupid conversation about coaches being able to challenge PI started. What you are writing is simply not true. The pass was right in the basket, and he had both hands available to secure it but failed:



This is a dropped ball.




What do you mean there was nothing he can do ? Just ****ing body check Gilmore into his ribs who cares about any kind of penalty that is called there.

My point is not that he failed to break up the pass but his lack of effort trying to break it up.



Of course OPI is preferable to an INT. I applaud you for going back and checking it out. I actually found a short conversation with Matt Chatham on Twitter about that play back then:





Again, my issue is not that he failed to break it up but the lack of trying. He didnt have enough awareness until it was too late and then showed a half-ass effort to do something. Hell just bearhug the Dolphins player. Anything.



The bigger your contract the more value you have to bring to the team to make it worth the resources that are put into you. Him coming up short on two passes that should have been TDs in the SB comes after last years SB clown show where he first failed to gain an easy first down to instead jump **** first into an opponents face and then perform a comedy routine that got him knocked out.

That is the impression he is leaving in the bigger games. The Rams might be fine with what he is bringing to the table for that amount. But it definitely didnt cut it here and he got shipped out when an opportunity came up.

Nobody is saying he is a bad player. But his skillset and lack of awareness just doesnt fit the the pricetag to play in NE.

Come on, the ball already hit Cooks right hand in that picture. If Gilmore wasn't holding Cooks arm he uses both his hands to catch that. Now if he drops it after Harmon hits him, you can rightfully call him out. But not for how it currently happened.

Please watch the 1st replay shown on the broadcast of the Gilmore INT again, please watch it in real time. It's not possible for Cooks to body check Gilmore or whatever. Cooks put as much effort as possible to stop Gilmore with the little time he had to react.

Cooks was in good position to break up the INT by Howard. Howard pushed off. Hindsight is 20-20.

So you're angry with Cooks with his Super Bowl LII performance so you're going to **** on him for every little thing. Let it go man. He wasn't the only reason we lost that game.