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Patriots - Panthers MNF, Who Has The Razor's Edge

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Patriots - Panthers MNF, Who Has The Razor's Edge
By: Steve Balestrieri

Look for the Patriots to spread them out and try to get the short passing game going, getting the ball out of Brady's hands quickly and using the crossing routes underneath. ...

 
I agree with the "spreading it out" idea. Get those LB's out in space then use Gronk to soften up the middle of the field. It should also open things up for Ridley and the running game. Defensively, contain Steve Smith and the rest should fall into place.
 
I agree with the "spreading it out" idea. Get those LB's out in space then use Gronk to soften up the middle of the field. It should also open things up for Ridley and the running game. Defensively, contain Steve Smith and the rest should fall into place.

I'm concerned about our run defense in this game. Cam can put it into gear. Deangelo Williams is shifty. That Stewart guy is now back and he and Tolbert are mooses (meese?).

The Pats DL is going to be HEAVILY under pressure in this game.
 
I'm concerned about our run defense in this game. Cam can put it into gear. Deangelo Williams is shifty. That Stewart guy is now back and he and Tolbert are mooses (meese?).

The Pats DL is going to be HEAVILY under pressure in this game.

Oh, the run defense is going to get torched unless we made an acquisition that I don't know about over the last week that can play a high amount of snaps. That's an absolute given at this point, week in and week out until Sopoaga increases his snap count or something else happens. Scheming to stop it won't work either since opposing offenses will just go to dump off passes to counter.
 
I agree with the "spreading it out" idea. Get those LB's out in space then use Gronk to soften up the middle of the field. It should also open things up for Ridley and the running game. Defensively, contain Steve Smith and the rest should fall into place.

Double edge sword...which one of your offensive lineman spoke of.

Spread em out? Means you put more pressure on the OL against a great front to hold up if that initial quick throw isn't there.

But I think that is the plan for NE. As a massive Panther fan I will say...the spread em out dink and dunk isn't the type offense we would prefer to face. Our scheme general in ideal situations is to give those short passes up.....but we have to alter that against a team that chooses to do it (and Brady is an all time great).

I would like to ask a question. I do fully understand Brady has been limited in terms of recieving weapons this year....but he just hasn't looked himself overall on the year? Do Patriot fans agree with that or put it purely on limited weapons.

I'm sure Carolina's plan will be to keep on keepin on....run, take what the D gives and eat up the clock with LONG ball control drives limiting Brady's shots against a stout D. Carolina use to be a big play machine during Newton's first 2 years but the new OC has altered this identity and it is working. Carolina has been the best in the league at it. Newton has been on of the best 3rd down and short throwers in the NFL this year...surprisingly. Most of the "this is how you beat Newton" standards don't apply. He has had great accuracy under pressure....heck, he is probably at this worst unpressured with open guys deep this year
 
Watch the Steelers game where the weapons, minus Vereen, were back. Classic Brady. Don't worry if you missed it, you'll see more on monday, tempered by the cats' excellent defensive front 7.
 
Watch the Steelers game where the weapons, minus Vereen, were back. Classic Brady. Don't worry if you missed it, you'll see more on monday, tempered by the cats' excellent defensive front 7.

Blurred picture....Steelers don't really do much to any offense these days. No doubt getting game changers like Gronk back help though. Dude is scary. I expect Gronk to have a big first half actually.
 
Double edge sword...which one of your offensive lineman spoke of.

Spread em out? Means you put more pressure on the OL against a great front to hold up if that initial quick throw isn't there.

But I think that is the plan for NE. As a massive Panther fan I will say...the spread em out dink and dunk isn't the type offense we would prefer to face. Our scheme general in ideal situations is to give those short passes up.....but we have to alter that against a team that chooses to do it (and Brady is an all time great).

I would like to ask a question. I do fully understand Brady has been limited in terms of recieving weapons this year....but he just hasn't looked himself overall on the year? Do Patriot fans agree with that or put it purely on limited weapons.

I'm sure Carolina's plan will be to keep on keepin on....run, take what the D gives and eat up the clock with LONG ball control drives limiting Brady's shots against a stout D. Carolina use to be a big play machine during Newton's first 2 years but the new OC has altered this identity and it is working. Carolina has been the best in the league at it. Newton has been on of the best 3rd down and short throwers in the NFL this year...surprisingly. Most of the "this is how you beat Newton" standards don't apply. He has had great accuracy under pressure....heck, he is probably at this worst unpressured with open guys deep this year

I'd say it's appeared to be 70% weapons, 30% him, but it's hard to tell because they run so many option routes. Sometimes it's borderline impossible to tell if he missed the throw or if he and the receiver made different reads. It's really impossible to overstate this, though:

Player Receptions
Welker 118
Lloyd 74
Gronk 55
Hernandez 51
Woodhead 40
Edelman 21
Branch 16
Vereen 8
Ridley 6
Hooman 5
Fells 4
Bolden 2
Stallworth 1
Winslow 1

That's 402 total receptions in 2012, and 368 came from players who were unavailable for the first half of the season. 91% of his completions in 2012 were to people who were gone in 2013.

Welker 1,354
Lloyd 911
Gronk 790
Hernandez 483
Woodhead 446
Edelman 235
Vereen 149
Branch 145
Hooman 109
Fells 85
Stallworth 63
Ridley 51
Winslow 12
Bolden 11

That's 4,844 receiving yards, of which 4,438 yards was unavailable for most/all of the first half of 2013. Again, 91%

Touchdowns:
Gronk 11
Welker 6
Hernandez 5
Lloyd 4
Woodhead 3
Edelman 3
Vereen 1
Stallworth 1

34 receiving touchdowns, of which 30 were gone. 88%

So yes, while people typically understand the "his weapons were missing" argument on some level, they really don't understand the degree of it because it's unprecedented. Furthermore, it was exacerbated by the fact that the guy brought in to replace a ton of that production, Amendola, was also gone. No matter how you slice it, the simple fact of the matter is that for the first half of the season, the Patriots were missing 90% of the 2012 passing offense, as well as the primary guy brought in to replace that 90%.

Meanwhile, Belichick decided to get cute with the running game for god knows why, depriving the offense of by far its most effective running threat more often than not. That seems to be changing somewhat, as he's finally unleashing Ridley a bit.

Now, factor in that Gronk is back, and he was the #1 option in both last year's offense and this year's (the 2012 numbers don't reflect it because he missed a bunch of the season). Amendola is back, and he was brought in to replace most of the production of the #2. Vereen should be back, and he took over Woodhead's role late season. If you combine Vereen and Woodhead's 2012 numbers, it becomes clear that we're talking about the 4th most productive player in the passing game.

This still leaves Lloyd and Hernandez unreplaced, but frankly I'll take Dobson over Lloyd anyway. The lack of a second tight end is still a glaring weakness in the lineup, and that alone (as well as the downgrade from Welker to Amendola) means that the offense probably won't be as good at any point this season as it was in 2012. It forces them into more 3WR sets, which are more predictable to defend against, plus our #3WR, whether it's Edelman or Thompkins, is nowhere near as good as Hernandez was.

But still if the first half of 2013's passing game is a 1, and 2012 is a 10, then you're probably looking at a 7 or 8 right now. The change has been that dramatic, and we saw the results against Pittsburgh even with Vereen still gone. Obviously the Pats aren't going to hang 55 on the Panthers, but they won't have to. I think they can put up 35 if the interior of the line holds up against your DTs. If the interior of the line can't hold up, then we're probably looking at a ~14-21 point output. Unfortunately, the interior of the line has a track record of being overmatched in games like this, so I'm definitely worried, but if the Pats can win that matchup, and/or if Gronk can consistently beat Kuechly, I think they win the game. If the opposite happens, then they lose. Either outcome is totally plausible.

The only way the Panthers win a high scoring game is if one of your receivers goes nuts in a way that he hasn't all year. The only way the Pats win a low-scoring slugfest is if Talib comes back and immediately plays at his best-in-the-league level (which he was before he got hurt: shut down AJ Green, Julio Jones, and Jimmy Graham in consecutive weeks). I think Talib will come back, but I think it's a tall order for him to get to that level right away. More realistically, I see him on a limited snap count, used against LaFell on most downs and maybe against Olsen on obvious passing downs. Based on that, I think the Pats can only realistically win a high-scoring game.
 
I'm concerned about our run defense in this game. Cam can put it into gear. Deangelo Williams is shifty. That Stewart guy is now back and he and Tolbert are mooses (meese?).

The Pats DL is going to be HEAVILY under pressure in this game.

Is it weird that Tolbert worries me more than the other two backs? If he gets to the second level, I could easily see him bulldozing through it. I've always liked Stewart, and while he hasn't looked 100% yet, he's still better than the average NFL starting RB. Still not sure about Williams, but he's the kind of guy who, if you give him a lane, he can explode through it, and the Pats will give up a lot of running lanes unless Sopoaga is suddenly ready for a full workload (and even then there's a good chance that they will).
 
Before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying this means anything about our respective defenses. It's just something I noticed and found interesting:

Team Sack Total 2013

Carolina Panthers - 29
New England Patriots - 29


Team Forced Turnovers - 2013

Carolina Panthers - 9
New England Patriots - 9

Team Interceptions - 2013

Carolina Panthers - 13
New England Patriots - 12


At least in those areas, our defenses are well matched.
 
I think we'll smoke them. The Panthers havea great front 7, but their secondary is average. Brady is the most patient QB in the pocket of all time, I think they'll protect well in mainly two TE sets and control the clock.

Patriots 31
Panthers 21
 
The only way the Panthers win a high scoring game is if one of your receivers goes nuts in a way that he hasn't all year. The only way the Pats win a low-scoring slugfest is if Talib comes back and immediately plays at his best-in-the-league level (which he was before he got hurt: shut down AJ Green, Julio Jones, and Jimmy Graham in consecutive weeks). I think Talib will come back, but I think it's a tall order for him to get to that level right away. More realistically, I see him on a limited snap count, used against LaFell on most downs and maybe against Olsen on obvious passing downs. Based on that, I think the Pats can only realistically win a high-scoring game.

Well, Carolina is more dangerous on the ground than air. But they like to have long slow methodical drives.....basically, they are everything they haven't been during Newton's first 2 seasons.

Carolina is doing THAT better anyone in the league this year.

If NE found a way to get up early....I wouldn't like Carolina's odds. But NE will get the ball first unless you choose to kick. Carolina won't take the ball to open up a game.
 
Some second-level offensive statistics to compare the two teams, for what it may (or may not) be worth:


Points per Play: Patriots 12th (0.370), Panthers 13th (0.364)

Yards per Play: Patriots 20th (5.1), Panthers 25th (5.0)

Plays per Game: Patriots 5th (70.3), Panthers 17th (65.3)

Time of possession: Panthers 1st (33:47), Patriots 25th (29:02)

Yards per Drive: Panthers 11th (32.91), Patriots 14th (31.06)

Points per Drive: Panthers 6th (2.22), Patriots 11th (2.06)

Drive Success rate: Panthers 4th (.745), Patriots 14th (.687)

Yards per Point: Panthers 7th (13.6), Patriots 9th (13.9)



Well, Carolina is more dangerous on the ground than air. But they like to have long slow methodical drives.....basically, they are everything they haven't been during Newton's first 2 seasons.

Carolina is doing THAT better anyone in the league this year.

The yards per drive and points per drive stats above would support that premise and indicate that they are indeed doing a very good job in regards to long, productive drives - though perhaps not quite to the extent of being better than any other team in the league in that regard.


If NE found a way to get up early....I wouldn't like Carolina's odds. But NE will get the ball first unless you choose to kick. Carolina won't take the ball to open up a game.

The only way the Patriots will get the ball first is if the Panthers win the toss and then choose to put their defense on the field first to begin the game. Belichick always defers when he wins the coin toss; he would prefer to get the ball at the start of the second half.

There are multiple reasons for that:
- gives the defense a longer period of time to rest
- offense might get the ball back-to-back, possibly scoring twice
- puts the opposing defense on the field back-to-back
 
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I see it this way.....who is the best QB the Panthers have beaten? better yet, who is the best passing offense that the panthers have stopped?

seattle(20), arizona(21), and buffalo(23) were all losses and the giants(14), st louis(15), minnesota(26), tampa bay(30), and San Fran(32) were wins

some pretty weak passing offenses were pretty effective against the panthers.....at least when it comes to counting on the panthers offense to make the difference.

speaking of which, who says the panthers rushing offense is all that? they're not ground and pound, that's for sure.

there's going to be tons of opportunities to throw the ball for the pats.

I feel good about Mon nite
 
I see it this way.....who is the best QB the Panthers have beaten? better yet, who is the best passing offense that the panthers have stopped?

seattle(20), arizona(21), and buffalo(23) were all losses and the giants(14), st louis(15), minnesota(26), tampa bay(30), and San Fran(32) were wins

some pretty weak passing offenses were pretty effective against the panthers.....at least when it comes to counting on the panthers offense to make the difference.

speaking of which, who says the panthers rushing offense is all that? they're not ground and pound, that's for sure.

there's going to be tons of opportunities to throw the ball for the pats.

I feel good about Mon nite


I'm surprised to find that you may have a point.

2013 NFL Team Rushing Stats

Panthers: 3.9 yards per carry (20th)
Patriots: 4.4 yards per carry (11th)

Of course Jonathan Stewart being healthy gives them an added dimension at RB, and helps keep the other running backs fresh.
 
Blurred picture....Steelers don't really do much to any offense these days. No doubt getting game changers like Gronk back help though. Dude is scary. I expect Gronk to have a big first half actually.

DUH! Brady doesn't play against the offense. He plays against the defense.

That said Steelers D is over the hill.
 
I see it this way.....who is the best QB the Panthers have beaten? better yet, who is the best passing offense that the panthers have stopped?

seattle(20), arizona(21), and buffalo(23) were all losses and the giants(14), st louis(15), minnesota(26), tampa bay(30), and San Fran(32) were wins

some pretty weak passing offenses were pretty effective against the panthers.....at least when it comes to counting on the panthers offense to make the difference.

speaking of which, who says the panthers rushing offense is all that? they're not ground and pound, that's for sure.

there's going to be tons of opportunities to throw the ball for the pats.

I feel good about Mon nite

every team technically has tons of opportunities to throw the ball....and given we have been up on just about everyone this year all teams have had opportunities to do that.

NE (18th)...not exactly the 2007 Patriots. I wouldn't consider NE this year a strong pass attack.

You left out Atl that is (6th)

But pure yardage is a terrible way to judge anything.....
 
I'm surprised to find that you may have a point.

2013 NFL Team Rushing Stats

Panthers: 3.9 yards per carry (20th)
Patriots: 4.4 yards per carry (11th)

Of course Jonathan Stewart being healthy gives them an added dimension at RB, and helps keep the other running backs fresh.

style of play factors in....Carolina's ideal drive is a long slow time consuming drive.

If you can't stop a rush attack, you can't stop it. Some thought process could be applied to a dink and dunk vs vertical pass attack.

But Stewart is our best overall RB. He is probably in the Gronk "area" in terms if being healthy finally and still working his way back to being 100% back in the groove. Stewart has been knocking off some rust.
 
every team technically has tons of opportunities to throw the ball....and given we have been up on just about everyone this year all teams have had opportunities to do that.

NE (18th)...not exactly the 2007 Patriots. I wouldn't consider NE this year a strong pass attack.

You left out Atl that is (6th)

But pure yardage is a terrible way to judge anything.....

OK........consider what you like......I consider the Panthers a bunch of frauds

atlanta was much better when they had jones and white.....sorry, but the cardinals did a better job of stopping ryan than the panthers did.
 
OK........consider what you like......I consider the Panthers a bunch of frauds

atlanta was much better when they had jones and white.....sorry, but the cardinals did a better job of stopping ryan than the panthers did.

fine by me. I consider this one of the weakest NE teams I can recall in a LONG time (and I am sure most of you do as well)

We play Atl all the time. They don't suck this year b/c of there WRs being out they suck b/c both their lines are weak.
 
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