Patriots new OC - Alex Van Pelt

[1960Pats]

The lower you go, the higher the failure rate.

In general that may be true but the HOF has plenty of QBs who were picked after QBs who either didn't make it in the NYFL or didn't have good careers. The key, as mentioned in this forum before, is the player evaluations.

Bill, if he wasn't picking STers, kickers and punters, blew chunks with his offensive selections. Hopefully that will improve with him on the golf course or his boat.

 

[Ivan]

Let's cut to the chase, name a championship built around any single player. Debating who to draft to create a champion cannot be simplified by a single pick. The fact that 53 players and a dozen coaches need to be able to work together as a unit, granted 3 phases, makes football such a great sport to follow. No one player, TB12, Lawrence Taylor, Archie Manning has won anything by themselves. Sorry, this is getting tedious.

Look at the contenders in the AFC.

K.C. Mahomes, high first Rd., building around him.

Buffalo Allen High first round, building around him.

Miami Tua High first round, building around him.

Texas Stroud 2nd overall Building around him.

Baltimore Jackson first card. Building around him.

Cleveland Watson Drafted first Rd. , Browns gave up 3 first rounders, 3 more picks, and 240 million for him.

Jacksonville Lawrence 1st overall Building around him

Cincy Burrows 1st overall Building around him.

Pittsburgh Pickett first round. Pick. Pitt wants to build around him, but he’s failing so far.


Stu. Feel free to argue against the logic of taking a QB with your first pick and building around them, but historically and contemporaneously this is and has been the best approach to building a winner. Guys like Manning, Kelly , Rivers etc… may not have won a ton of Lombardi’s but they had their team in the mix or Suoer Bowl numerous times. and Manning would likely have had 5 rings if he didn’t have to get knocked out by the GOAT on a regular basis. I don’t want a mediocre QB. For 50 million a year, and I don’t want them to have to give up 3 first rounders to get their QB when they could get him simply by making their pick at no extra cost to them. It may not guarantee a Lombardi, but it certainly gives them the best shot at being a winner who plays for Lombardi’s.

 

[1960Pats]

Was that the goal? I think you know the answer.

The Browns finished 7 games ahead of the Pats with injuries to all of their QBs. Their goal sure as hell wasn't to go 4-13 and get a great draft pick.

 

[1960Pats]

Look at the contenders in the AFC.

K.C. Mahomes, high first Rd., building around him.

Buffalo Allen High first round, building around him.

Miami Tua High first round, building around him.

Texas Stroud 2nd overall Building around him.

Baltimore Jackson first card. Building around him.

Cleveland Watson Drafted first Rd. , Browns gave up 3 first rounders, 3 more picks, and 240 million for him.

Jacksonville Lawrence 1st overall Building around him

Cincy Burrows 1st overall Building around him.

Pittsburgh Pickett first round. Pick. Pitt wants to build around him, but he’s failing so far.


Stu. Feel free to argue against the logic of taking a QB with your first pick and building around them, but historically and contemporaneously this is and has been the best approach to building a winner. Guys like Manning, Kelly , Rivers etc… may not have won a ton of Lombardi’s but they had their team in the mix or Suoer Bowl numerous times. and Manning would likely have had 5 rings if he didn’t have to get knocked out by the GOAT on a regular basis. I don’t want a mediocre QB. For 50 million a year, and I don’t want them to have to give up 3 first rounders to get their QB when they could get him simply by making their pick at no extra cost to them. It may not guarantee a Lombardi, but it certainly gives them the best shot at being a winner who plays for Lombardi’s.

Looking at the list of QBs taken 1st overall I see about 20 who were below average and never won anything.

 

[1960Pats]

JFC it just keeps getting worse McAdoo really

He was a great shooter.

 

[Ollie]

The lower you go, the higher the failure rate.

Of course but you said all you see inb other routes is long term failures when that's also the case of drafting high. Hitting on a true franchise QB is possibly even lower than 30%. You say no championship side was built around a WR and that is true but you do need talent. Purdy has been able to succeed largely because of the talent around him. All the paths to success require some luck as the draft is not an exact science.

 

[Uptown]

 

[Ivan]

Of course but you said all you see inb other routes is long term failures when that's also the case of drafting high. Hitting on a true franchise QB is possibly even lower than 30%. You say no championship side was built around a WR and that is true but you do need talent. Purdy has been able to succeed largely because of the talent around him. All the paths to success require some luck as the draft is not an exact science.

I’m not saying teams can’t get a QB outside the first round, nobody knows better that than Patriot fans, and when they do it usually happens when they have really good coaches and talent arounff them. However if you want the best model for creating a team that wins consistently, which gives you the best chance at winning Chsmpionships, then that is to get really good young QB and build around them. Building the rest of the teams and hoping you will find a QB has never been a good route to go in the NFL.

And as I said in another post the Patriots are in the fortunate position of being able to get a top QB without having to sacrifice other draft capital to get them. The only way you can do that without giving up multiple picks is to truly suck that year, and this has been suckiest they have been, and the best pick they had in over 30 years. I don’t expect that to come around soon again. Unless they don’t get a QB, then they will have more opportunities like this.

 

[Love The Drake]

I like what I’m hearing.
Let’s get our new offensive coaches sooner than later.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

John Elway

Troy Aikman

Ben Roethlisberger

Joe Namath

Patrick Mahomes

Peyton Manning

To name a few.



They drafted and built around those players. And there are a number of others who won numerous conference Championships just not the SB, such as Jim Kelly. The QB is the most important position on the team, and if you find a great one without having to use a high pick to draft them then great, the Patriots didn’t have to use a high pick for Brady, but they built around him for years knowing QB was all set. So anyone who believes Mac Jones and Bailey Zappe are the answer should stay fast in their belief that Marvin Harrison Jr. should be the pick, and ill stick to my belief that this is their best bet for getting one without having to pay 50 million a year for a mediocre QB, or using multiple first rounders to move up and get one.

I get it that you have been clear about your single focus vision that the Patriots choose a QB. The point I was trying to make is that no single player has won a super bowl. Your list highlights a few QBs that happened to be part of championship teams, many were not chosen as the foundational piece to build around. Of your list Payton Manning and John Elway are the shining examples of the QB first model, most QB's chosen first fail due to lack of help. The Chiefs did not draft Patrick Mahomes and build around him, neither did the Broncos when Payton joined them. The Steelers are not a boom or bust organization, Roethlisberger was added to a roster that already had Bettis, Hines Ward, Plaxico, etc..

Even though QB is the most important position, it is not all about one player. The Patriots need to trust their scouting and hit on multiple draft picks to turn things around. The team clearly needs a QB, the third pick is a real opportunity to find one. The team also needs to upgrade the OL and WR to be successful. If the Pats spends pick 3 on the QB, throwing him to the wolves before some of the other pieces in place is a recipe for failure. While not your preference, picking MHJ or trading down for multiple picks are reasonable approaches if the team is not convinced the available QB at 3 is viable. There is more than one way to build a team.

 

[Ross12]

I like this quote from Kendrick Bourne in the story:

“I feel like something good is coming in that building and I want to be part of it.”

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Look at the contenders in the AFC.

K.C. Mahomes, high first Rd., building around him.

Buffalo Allen High first round, building around him.

Miami Tua High first round, building around him.

Texas Stroud 2nd overall Building around him.

Baltimore Jackson first card. Building around him.

Cleveland Watson Drafted first Rd. , Browns gave up 3 first rounders, 3 more picks, and 240 million for him.

Jacksonville Lawrence 1st overall Building around him

Cincy Burrows 1st overall Building around him.

Pittsburgh Pickett first round. Pick. Pitt wants to build around him, but he’s failing so far.


Stu. Feel free to argue against the logic of taking a QB with your first pick and building around them, but historically and contemporaneously this is and has been the best approach to building a winner. Guys like Manning, Kelly , Rivers etc… may not have won a ton of Lombardi’s but they had their team in the mix or Suoer Bowl numerous times. and Manning would likely have had 5 rings if he didn’t have to get knocked out by the GOAT on a regular basis. I don’t want a mediocre QB. For 50 million a year, and I don’t want them to have to give up 3 first rounders to get their QB when they could get him simply by making their pick at no extra cost to them. It may not guarantee a Lombardi, but it certainly gives them the best shot at being a winner who plays for Lombardi’s.

LOL, please show me where I posted anything about not wanting to draft a QB. I have repeatedly stated that I hope the Pats draft a QB because it is the most important position. My big transgression has been keeping an open mind to the possibility that the players available would steer the team to adding talent to other positions instead of blindly taking the best QB available. Your list cherry picks drafts that worked out and ignores many, many players who did not. Furthermore, your statements make it seem as if all of these players were added to barren teams starting from scratch when the reality is that most teams need to upgrade at QB to get to the next level. Teams with good QB's naturally spend resources to improve other positions which you interpret as building around the QB. I respect your opinion that the team needs to take a QB, please respect the fact that other options exist.

 

[BUSTAMOVE]

Joe Alt over MHJ.

I at first wanted MHJ then Daniels
I think MHJ will be a Pro Bowler
Daniels is intriguing but don’t want to miss on pick #3
Alt most likely will also be a ProBowler

I have always been a believer that the great teams have great trenches
Let’s build a solid OLine to go with our Defense
If lucky we can move down a few spots and still get Alt and a extra pick or two


Saying all that QB is the most important position
If they are sold on a QB at 3 then grab him
Please don’t reach. That’s when we get in trouble
No. I don’t want to take a risk. The rebuild depends on it

 

[Ivan]

LOL, please show me where I posted anything about not wanting to draft a QB. I have repeatedly stated that I hope the Pats draft a QB because it is the most important position. My big transgression has been keeping an open mind to the possibility that the players available would steer the team to adding talent to other positions instead of blindly taking the best QB available. Your list cherry picks drafts that worked out and ignores many, many players who did not. Furthermore, your statements make it seem as if all of these players were added to barren teams starting from scratch when the reality is that most teams need to upgrade at QB to get to the next level. Teams with good QB's naturally spend resources to improve other positions which you interpret as building around the QB. I respect your opinion that the team needs to take a QB, please respect the fact that other options exist.

I was responding to your question to name championship teams around a single player, and the only teams that do that are teams building around a QB, , which imo is the most common and successful approach to building a successful team. And I am responding to anyone who thinks that using the .3 pick for Harrison or Alt, who are both really good prospects, but taking one of them would mean building around them c as they won’t have a QB to build around any time soon. And I’m not pointing a finger at you, as I’m pretty sure you have been ok with taking the QB in some of your posts, but I am arguing that this is going to be a critical pick for this regime, and their best opportunity to get a high quality QB prospect without having to give up multiple first rounders, or suck so badly that they have a top 2-3 pick again in the coming years. The additional benefit of taking the QB is that you have them on their rookie salary the next 5 years, and can apply those savings to build up in free agency as well as the draft.

I’m at the point where I have laid out my arguments for taking the QB at three a number of times, and if anyone wants to make the argument for a better way to get a top QB and build a really good team in another manner then by all means they should do it. So far I haven’t seen anything that makes me believe there is a better way to approach this situation, primarily because none of them gets the Patriots the QB they are going to need to become successful again.

 

[Love The Drake]

I’m leaning towards a trade down, or adding Fields and building around him.
Hopefully Van Pelt Macadoo and Mayo can find the right solution for QB.
What I love about a new system neither Jones or Zappe, has a leg up or even promised to be in the plans.

Burn it all!

 

[Ivan]

LOL, please show me where I posted anything about not wanting to draft a QB. I have repeatedly stated that I hope the Pats draft a QB because it is the most important position. My big transgression has been keeping an open mind to the possibility that the players available would steer the team to adding talent to other positions instead of blindly taking the best QB available. Your list cherry picks drafts that worked out and ignores many, many players who did not. Furthermore, your statements make it seem as if all of these players were added to barren teams starting from scratch when the reality is that most teams need to upgrade at QB to get to the next level. Teams with good QB's naturally spend resources to improve other positions which you interpret as building around the QB. I respect your opinion that the team needs to take a QB, please respect the fact that other options exist.

I’m not “ blindly taking the QB,” I went and read up on the prospects, and watched footage of them playing, and I like all 3 of them. And if they were picking fourth I would be arguing to trade up, because I’m not sold on Penix or Nix, and if that was what was left then I would argue to just take the best player available, Harrison, Alt, etc…, because I don’t believe any of those alternatives are worth a high first, and I probably wouldn’t even use a first on them.

If the Patriots believe one of those guys is their franchise QB then they should take them, I just don’t agree with that.

 

[Ivan]

I’m leaning towards a trade down, or adding Fields and building around him.
Hopefully Van Pelt Macadoo and Mayo can find the right solution for QB.
What I love about a new system neither Jones or Zappe, has a leg up or even promised to be in the plans.

Burn it all!

40 million+ and draft capital for a failing QB, great idea.

 

[Ollie]

I’m not “ blindly taking the QB,” I went and read up on the prospects, and watched footage of them playing, and I like all 3 of them. And if they were picking fourth I would be arguing to trade up, because I’m not sold on Penix or Nix, and if that was what was left then I would argue to just take the best player available, Harrison, Alt, etc…, because I don’t believe any of those alternatives are worth a high first, and I probably wouldn’t even use a first on them.

If the Patriots believe one of those guys is their franchise QB then they should take them, I just don’t agree with that.

You might like all 3 of them but based on previous probability only one of them is likely to pan out..

 

[jdlboot14]

So AVP is turning into BB - bringing back old pals (that weren't very good)
McAdoo, ****erson, O'Shea... I'd actually love if O'Shea took over WR's and maybe pass-game coord. or something.
Who knows about ****erson, can't be worse than "No-show Klemm".
McAdoo has been out of football for a year - there's probably a reason. NO THANKS!

 

[Love The Drake]

So AVP is turning into BB - bringing back old pals (that weren't very good)
McAdoo, ****erson, O'Shea... I'd actually love if O'Shea took over WR's and maybe pass-game coord. or something.
Who knows about ****erson, can't be worse than "No-show Klemm".
McAdoo has been out of football for a year - there's probably a reason. NO THANKS!

As stated earlier he had the giants Offense flying when he was coordinator.
Maybe he comes on as the play caller?
Van Pelt develops the QB the concepts, the game plans and Macadoo calls the plays.