OT: Parcells already looking for new job

[Ring 6]

I disagree ...

I think Kraft compared what the differences were and moved forward from there.

Many knowledgeable people have said Kraft built a great organization.

He gained that knowledge somehow and took what he learned about football and applied it to what he already knew about business.

Most good business owners learn as much from their mistakes as they do from their accomplishments.

You are stretchng it very far, and making a lot of very big assumptions.
You are assuming that it was Kraft who was responsible for the Championships.
You are assuming Kraft was not any good as an owner before Parcells, or after Parcells, but then later reflected back on the Parcells years and learned everything from him in retrospect.
All of a sudden 5 years after Parcells left Kraft figured it all out, and it was because of everything he learned from Parcells?

Kraft himself has credit BB with being the 'teacher'. He talks about the owners meeting that Parcells could care less to attend so he sent BB as where he began to see the salary cap part of building a team. He changed his approach, not after PArcells, left, but after BB arrived.

Look, Parcells was part of the history of the franchise, and some of the players he coached remained. His interaction with them, and with the owner or other employees of the organization had some type of an impact.
To say that it was a positive one, or had an extraordinary impact is just wild speculation.
Parcells has had 3 more opportunties since leaving here, none of which have even a hint of the level of success the Patriots have had. It seems very dubious to say the guy who was here 5 years before the success and went on to have very little is the reason for the success that came here.

 

[IcyPatriot]

You are stretchng it very far, and making a lot of very big assumptions.
You are assuming that it was Kraft who was responsible for the Championships.
You are assuming Kraft was not any good as an owner before Parcells, or after Parcells, but then later reflected back on the Parcells years and learned everything from him in retrospect.
All of a sudden 5 years after Parcells left Kraft figured it all out, and it was because of everything he learned from Parcells?

Kraft himself has credit BB with being the 'teacher'. He talks about the owners meeting that Parcells could care less to attend so he sent BB as where he began to see the salary cap part of building a team. He changed his approach, not after PArcells, left, but after BB arrived.

Look, Parcells was part of the history of the franchise, and some of the players he coached remained. His interaction with them, and with the owner or other employees of the organization had some type of an impact.
To say that it was a positive one, or had an extraordinary impact is just wild speculation.
Parcells has had 3 more opportunties since leaving here, none of which have even a hint of the level of success the Patriots have had. It seems very dubious to say the guy who was here 5 years before the success and went on to have very little is the reason for the success that came here.

You are assuming way to much on what i said ...

I am wasting my time.

Victor hiring Bill was a complete waste of time to our history as a team.

 

[Ring 6]

You are assuming way to much on what i said ...

I am wasting my time.

Victor hiring Bill was a complete waste of time to our history as a team.

The assumptions are necessary to connect A to B.
A being that you said Parcells had an extraordinary contribution to the Championships, and B being that you said it was because Kraft learned how to run a franchise from him.
If your point is somethng different, I must have missed it.

Parcells being the coach from 1993-1996 was as coincidental to our Championships as the Herman Edwards years are to any success Rex Ryan has in NY, or as Mike Holmgren has to Pete Carroll, or Jim Haslett to Sean Payton, Mike Shanahan would have to whoever replace McDaniels if he only lasts another 2 years.

 

[IcyPatriot]

The assumptions are necessary to connect A to B.
A being that you said Parcells had an extraordinary contribution to the Championships, and B being that you said it was because Kraft learned how to run a franchise from him.
If your point is somethng different, I must have missed it.

Parcells being the coach from 1993-1996 was as coincidental to our Championships as the Herman Edwards years are to any success Rex Ryan has in NY, or as Mike Holmgren has to Pete Carroll, or Jim Haslett to Sean Payton, Mike Shanahan would have to whoever replace McDaniels if he only lasts another 2 years.

If you read back on the history of the Patriots ... Pete Carroll said that Kraft expected Pete to be a continuation of Parcells. Kraft himself has said he was learning on the job and he admits to screwing things up during the Carroll years.

He rectified all of that by hiring Belichick who he had become very friendly with in 1996. Kraft absolutely took the knowledge of football success he learned from both Bill's and the knowledge of his failures with Pete and righted the ship when he went with Belichick.

It's all there in the books written on the Patriots and also in some of what Pete has said in interviews.

I said
"I try not to be critical of Parcells ... he started what we now enjoy".

That is a true statement and I'm not even covering that Parcells chose Bledsoe over Mirer.

 

[Ring 6]

If you read back on the history of the Patriots ... Pete Carroll said that Kraft expected Pete to be a continuation of Parcells. Kraft himself has said he was learning on the job and he admits to screwing things up during the Carroll years.

He rectified all of that by hiring Belichick who he had become very friendly with in 1996. Kraft absolutely took the knowledge of football success he learned from both Bill's and the knowledge of his failures with Pete and righted the ship when he went with Belichick.

It's all there in the books written on the Patriots and also in some of what Pete has said in interviews.

I said
"I try not to be critical of Parcells ... he started what we now enjoy".

That is a true statement and I'm not even covering that Parcells chose Bledsoe over Mirer.

What does Bledsoe have to do with this discussion? We won after he was replaced.

Belichick stated what we now enjoy.
Parcells allowed us to enjoy a few seasons when the franchise has been down for a few years.
I really do not see where his impact is anything more than being the coach for 4 years, and all of the things that naturally eminate from that.

I don't know how Parcells would get credit for Kraft learning as he goes.

 

[IcyPatriot]

What does Bledsoe have to do with this discussion? We won after he was replaced.

Belichick stated what we now enjoy.
Parcells allowed us to enjoy a few seasons when the franchise has been down for a few years.
I really do not see where his impact is anything more than being the coach for 4 years, and all of the things that naturally eminate from that.

I don't know how Parcells would get credit for Kraft learning as he goes.

You need to read the books Andy and go over what Kraft has said that's all I can say.

Kraft has said a few times that he learned on the job.

Business owners learn from success and failure.

Kraft experienced both before Belichick got here.

Kraft's decision to hire Belichick was influenced from the Parcell's days.

You need to move beyond the X's and O's here ... this is not about X's and O's.

If you can't deduce that Kraft sucked up knowledge from Parcells ... the first coach he ever dealt with as an owner then I really can't get you to see it either. Pete Cerroll is on record as saying Kraft wanted Pete to be Bill ... but Kraft did not realize only Parcells could be Parcells and he wanted what he had with Parcells magnified both on the field and in front office management. Kraft knew what he would have in Belichcik vs what he had when both were there.

He had the comparison to move forward with what was then a very unpopular decision.
But he had knowledge on his side that the media and the fans did not ... he had the comparison knowledge.

If Parcells was a supreme douche then I would agree with you. But Kraft learned some football knowledge from Parcells when he was here. Would Kraft had hired Belichick without the previous knowledge? We'll never know but we do know that Parcell's influenced Kraft .... it's called osmosis and it's huge in pro sports on every level.

 

[Aßßynormal]

Ummmmmm, a new job. Any team in particular? Please don't be Buffalo.

I assume he's only going to GM?

 

[Ring 6]

You need to read the books Andy and go over what Kraft has said that's all I can say.

I have but my conclusion is different than yours.

Kraft has said a few times that he learned on the job.

Business owners learn from success and failure.

Kraft experienced both before Belichick got here.

How do those things add up to Parcells deserving credit for the success of the BB era? Parcells didn't 'make' Kraft. By that definition Pete Carrol is responsible for the success too.

Kraft's decision to hire Belichick was influenced from the Parcell's days.

Kraft hired Belichick because of Belichick. If your argument is Parcells deserves the credit for introducing them, you would be correct, but I thought you were crediting Parcells with a lot more than that.

You need to move beyond the X's and O's here ... this is not about X's and O's.

Not sure where this comes from. Who said anything about Xs and Os???????

If you can't deduce that Kraft sucked up knowledge from Parcells ... the first coach he ever dealt with as an owner then I really can't get you to see it either.

What knowledge? If Parcells had built teams, before or after, that came close to the amount of success you are giving him credit for starting, this statement wouldn't be so hollow.
What you are trying to sell here is that the knowledge the success is based upon came from a man who has never come close to that level of success in running a franchise.

Pete Cerroll is on record as saying Kraft wanted Pete to be Bill ... but Kraft did not realize only Parcells could be Parcells and he wanted what he had with Parcells magnified both on the field and in front office management.

This is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make. Parcells gets credit for the success of the franchise because Kraft wanted the coach who failed to emulate him?

Kraft knew what he would have in Belichcik vs what he had when both were there.

He knew what he had because he knew Belichick. Tagging Parcells to that is lame. Parcells was not interested in attending owners meetings so he sent BB in his place. Kraft has said BB impressed him tremendously and that was the impetus for wanting to hire him. How Tuna gets credit for that I dont know.

He had the comparison to move forward with what was then a very unpopular decision.
But he had knowledge on his side that the media and the fans did not ... he had the comparison knowledge.

BB is neither Parcells nor Carroll. But even if he were a Parcells clone, your argument would be that the success of the franchise belongs to Parcells because he taught Kraft to want a coach like him? How did that lead to one that was better than him?

If Parcells was a supreme douche then I would agree with you.

What does that have to do with anything? The original argument was that Parcells built the team that BB won with. Yours has now become that he educated Kraft and Kraft is the reason for the success and was only successful because Tuna taught him how to run a franchise, yet apparently forgot to teach himself.
I think you like Parcells, and want to associte him with the success. Like him or hate him, he contributed what he did to the franchise, 4 years as coach, taking a crap team and making them contenders. By the time the team fell apart then became Champions that footrpint was faded to almost nothing.

But Kraft learned some football knowledge from Parcells when he was here.

Frankly Krafts football knowledge really means nothing. Kraft has said over and over that he hires people who are experts to run his companies. He is not making football decisions. You imply that Parcells taught him football so he could make football decisions, and that just is not the case. Perhaps Parcells gave him some education about football, but that wasn't a factor in the success of the franchise it just helped him understand what was going on better.

Would Kraft had hired Belichick without the previous knowledge?

He hired Belichick because of Belichick.
Are you serioulsy now trying to sell that Parcells is responsible for the success of the franchise because Parcells quit, stole Belichick, then tried to block Belichick from coming here, and we had to pay a draft pick, and that Kraft couldn't figure out how to hire a coach without Parcells teaching him?
Parcells has had a good career. Please stop embarassig his legacy by trying to create a pretend scenario to give him credit he doesnt deserve. He can stand pretty well getting credit that he does deserve.

We'll never know but we do know that Parcell's influenced Kraft .... it's called osmosis and it's huge in pro sports on every level.

Osmosis misses by many miles as proving that Parcells deserves credit for the success of the BB era.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Parcells is a good football coach. I am missing the part of the story that says he builds great franchises.
He was the coach with the Giants, no more, and those were his only rings.
He came here, and coached up the team, but left specifically because he wasnt allowed to 'pick the groceries'.
He went to the Jets, coached them up, and left behind a team that wallowed in mediocrity.
He went to Dallas, coached them up, but not as well, and left them in a state where they didnt win a playoff game until last year. And we know that Jerry Jones is making the personell decisions there.
Then he goes to Miami. So far the results were one surprisingly good season, followed by a losing season last year, and who knows what this year will bring. I, for one, am not overly impressed with the roster he leaves behind. I don't think he addressed the QB problem but for a bandaid in the one successful year, and has not bulit anything resembling a championship defense. His aging RB position and the 2 high priced acquisitions this season are the high points of what looks to be a team that will be just what he left behind everywhere else, medicore.

That is the most black and white post I've read from you in awhile. I don't think many here are debating that Parcels is a better head coach than Belichick. I'd take BB every time. But to downgrade Parcels success rate as a Gm kind of shows complete sour grapes homerism on your part. You are like a horse with blinders on, only seeing straight ahead. Mediocre? You've got to be kidding me?

 

[Ring 6]

That is the most black and white post I've read from you in awhile. I don't think many here are debating that Parcels is a better head coach than Belichick. I'd take BB every time. But to downgrade Parcels success rate as a Gm kind of shows complete sour grapes homerism on your part. You are like a horse with blinders on, only seeing straight ahead. Mediocre? You've got to be kidding me?

Where is all the success?
He was not the GM with the Giants, he was the coach. That is where his success was.
He was not the GM here, he was the coach.
He went to the Jets, coached them up, had one real nice season, then an average one, and turned over an average team, after staying one year as GM. Do you think he was successful as GM with the Jets?
He went to Dallas and was the coach, not the GM. Still, did not win a playoff game, and the team he left behind did not until just last year.
Goes to Miami. First year, nice turnaround, second year losing season, 3rdyear, bail out, to be seen whether he actually built a team.
Mediocre means average. Where is the success of Parcells as a GM? What team has he built into a real winner?
How could a discussion about Parcells track record as a GM have anything to do with 'homer'. If you want to have a discussion, have a real one, not a bs one.

But go ahead and detail for me all of the great successes he has had as a GM. They really aren't there.

 

[tuckeverlasting]

parcells is a ny/nj guy so espn loves him and all you will hear from them are rosey platitudes. some people are influenced by that. i do know they would never of pulled that spy crap on him like they did on bb.

 

[Ring 6]

parcells is a ny/nj guy so espn loves him and all you will hear from them are rosey platitudes. some people are influenced by that. i do know they would never of pulled that spy crap on him like they did on bb.

I agree that his reputation exceeds his results. I dont see, and no one has been able to show me his success as a GM.
People rip BB for the last 5 years but thats a better stretch than Parcells has had since leaving the Giants 20 years ago.

 

[captain stone]

i wouldn't mind parcells coming here to do the drafting....

Neither would I. Then maybe Bill could better concentrate on those 2nd-half adjustments that have recently only adjusted victories into defeats.