OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[venecol]

 

[rochrist]

You're cherry picking.
He went 5-13 with Drew Bledsoe until Brady stepped in.
He went 18-1 the year before 2008 with Brady.
He had quite a few poor years in Cleveland.
He has a 7-9 record since he dumped Brady.
Not only is the case not closed, the opening is getting wider.

He also kicked Parcells and the Pats ass in the playoffs when he was in Cleveland.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

That's not at all how I'm reading his posts and posts like yours. Everyone acknowledges that Bill is the best coach and we've been blessed to have him. What some of us are saying ONCE AGAIN is that even if they complement each other, their value is not equal. Many coaches have taken scrub QBs to winning seasons or the playoffs but we are talking about championships. Marvin Lewis doesn't have a job but he had had loads of winning seasons in a row. Between 09-15 he had seasons of 10, 10, 9, 11, 10, 12 wins with a few bad seasons mixed in. You guys are acting like we should put Bill in the HOF if he does something similar. That could of easily been BB or ANY coach without the QB. You guys act like you take Brady out and the BB train keeps on rolling. It's fantasy. You NEED a good coach but they are not players.

Yes, but how can you put a percentage on Brady's value vis-a-vis Belichick's? Impossible. You don't think coaches have taken scrub QBs to championships before? Brian Billick, Jon Gruden, Bill Parcells, and Mike Ditka are a few that have...

 

[amfootball]

That was really good. I was surprised to notice that he does not trash talk at all. He is all business. Amazing how different he is on the field vs off the field.

 

[Vindicate]

It's abundantly clear that all Bill had to do was surround Brady with some talent and this train would've kept moving. The Brady haters harping that last year was Brady's fault was comical then and still is now. Brady's replacements throw for a total of 10 TD's while Brady had more than twice that amount (24 TD's) last year.

Let's say Bill hit on the 2019 draft and Brady now has promising receivers, the next excuse for the Brady haters would be that the defense would hold them back and they wouldn't get many more wins. Go back in time and revisit the 2010-2012 defenses and see how the Pats finished. In fact, the 2010 defense was legendary when Bill had little Kyle Arrington rushing the passer at DE on more than a few occasions. That little f***er literally had his hand in the dirt. That was bizarre and quite embarrassing to say the least. In 2011, Julian Edelman was playing CB.

Brady haters and Bill lovers can't accept that Bill had only ONE objective in 2019 and that was to get help at WR/TE. Bill failed miserably and is using the cap and the "we sold out" excuse that doesn't make any sense as to moving on from Brady. Bill's rule of "moving on from a player a year early than too late" backfired. In fact, Brady had earned the right to stay until he calls it a day.

Oh and this thread......

I understand why the Brady or Bill debate exists, and am fine with those who think one is more important than the other.

That being said, I think "all Bill had to do in 2019 was find great receivers and TEs" is an over simplification of things. I will definitely concede that the draft team for offensive has been pretty bad. But to "just" get a strong offense in a single draft is pretty damn difficult, even if we're talking Steelers-level-offense-drafting.

I also think it's a bit dismissive to just address the cap issue by saying the cap wasn't a big part of Tom moving on. We also all know, it's FA/veterans that Brady gels with the most, as his play requires an incredible amount of NFL-level knowledge.

This team definitely would've been BETTER with Brady. No doubt. But with your defense soon to be all departing as FA's, and you building a younger team in the wings, it seems like the long-term value of investing in the future outweighed the immediate term of possibly making the playoffs, but still probably playing second fiddle to the Chiefs.

Not trying to say you're wrong or that I'm right, just offering my two cents. Honestly, I think this was hard to manage around, and was a big question of "win now" or thinking long term and getting a new team in the wings when you're set up for a great cap situation a year from his departure.

And to for clarity's sake: I think they're both of equal value.

Now, BRADY BETTER WIN THAT SB BABY. I'M READY TO ROOT FOR THOSE UGLY UNIS NOW THAT OUR BOYS ARE OUT!!! Would be such a good story. I love Brady, on the field, in the playoffs. Truly an amazing display. Buc fans don't know how lucky they are or what they're in for.

(Now if that team had Bill... Well, an SB is a given with that roster and Bill at the helm )

 

[Boomer B]

Let me punch holes in all these


5-13 with Bledsoe

He had to clean up Carroll's roster mess and Bledsoe wasn't a good QB. Reminder Carroll finished the previous season 2-6 with a similair roster.


He went 18-1 the year before 2008 with Brady.

I really don't understand how 2007 is brought up in regard to 2008. Fact was Brady getting injured took out a lot of hype for that season in the locker room and yet with a guy that hadn't played a meaningful snap since high school went 11-5. I really find it funny how all the anti-Belichick people point to 2008 as a negative for Belichick.


He had quite a few poor years in Cleveland.

Browns were 3-13 before he got there, they then went
7-9
7-9
11-5 (made playoffs, beat Parcells and the Pats in the playoffs. Last Browns coach to win a playoff game)
5-11 (started the year 3-3 and then Modell made the announcement the team was moving and that basically sabotaged the season)



He has a 7-9 record since he dumped Brady.

Damn what a terrible coach getting a team that needs a rebuild and had terrible QB play to 7-9..... Still had more wins against winning teams this year than Brady did.

 

[venecol]

TommyBrady12 continues his disingenuous rants cherry picking TB12's stats this season that even haters like Sharpe and ****erson agree exceeded expectations.

Our resident jilted bride ignores TB12 played within a new system, new OL, WRs, OC, HC, City at the age of 43 after spending 20 years in NEP. TB12 coming in at #2 in TDs, #3 in yards, and #9 in rating given the above is already an outstanding accomplishment. I believe PFF ranked TB12 #2 only behind Rodgers.

TB12 has already set all kinds of franchise records in just his 1st year and on top of that, he brings a perennial loser franchise to their 1st playoff appearance in 13 years despite what everyone said was terrible play calling by his OC until recent games.

Instead of acknowledging any of the above, TommyBrady12 moves the goal posts to say TB12's season will be a complete failure unless he wins the SB. Lmao. All this hate because TB12 dared not retire a NEP like TommyBrady12 wanted him to. Wow. This clownish behavior is just sad.

"Photo of TommyBrady12 riding the Metro in D.C. after hearing Bucs make the playoffs."

 

[sb1]

Let me punch holes in all these


5-13 with Bledsoe

He had to clean up Carroll's roster mess and Bledsoe wasn't a good QB. Reminder Carroll finished the previous season 2-6 with a similair roster.

That season wasn't really the fault of the coach imo, as you mentioned they had a miserable 2-6 record in the second half of 1999. Still part of Bill's resume though. I think right now the 2020 Pats are like the 1999 Pats minus the QB. I think there's a decent chance we bottom out next year as the rebuild begins and then the window will start to open after that.

He went 18-1 the year before 2008 with Brady.

I really don't understand how 2007 is brought up in regard to 2008. Fact was Brady getting injured took out a lot of hype for that season in the locker room and yet with a guy that hadn't played a meaningful snap since high school went 11-5. I really find it funny how all the anti-Belichick people point to 2008 as a negative for Belichick.

Pats defense wasn't that good in 2008. They do get to the playoffs if Brady didn't get hurt but they weren't the best or even the second best team in the AFC that year.

He had quite a few poor years in Cleveland.

Browns were 3-13 before he got there, they then went
7-9
7-9
11-5 (made playoffs, beat Parcells and the Pats in the playoffs. Last Browns coach to win a playoff game)
5-11 (started the year 3-3 and then Modell made the announcement the team was moving and that basically sabotaged the season)

Bill is a much better coach with NE than he was then. Still he took a team devoid of talent and got them very close to being on the right track. Also won a playoff game. I wonder who they beat... hmmm.

His final season W-L couldn't be any more worthless to me as a stat. I don't acknowledge it as a failed season for that exact reason you mentioned.

He has a 7-9 record since he dumped Brady.

Damn what a terrible coach getting a team that needs a rebuild and had terrible QB play to 7-9..... Still had more wins against winning teams this year than Brady did.

Bill the coach >>>> Bill the GM. Have to admit though it's hard not to blur the lines between them. Bill will hear questions about his legacy without Brady soon if he doesn't turn this team around quickly. No more experimenting with the Nkeal Harrys of the draft please and get some real talent in here on both sides of the ball. Brady isn't here anymore to cover up roster deficiencies.

 

[sb1]

Yes, but how can you put a percentage on Brady's value vis-a-vis Belichick's? Impossible. You don't think coaches have taken scrub QBs to championships before? Brian Billick, Jon Gruden, Bill Parcells, and Mike Ditka are a few that have...

Elite QB >>>> Elite coach when it comes to value

 

[Boomer B]

TommyBrady12 continues his disingenuous rants cherry picking TB12's stats this season that even haters like Sharpe and ****erson agree exceeded expectations.

Our resident jilted bride ignores TB12 played within a new system, new OL, WRs, OC, HC, City at the age of 43 after spending 20 years in NEP. TB12 coming in at #2 in TDs, #3 in yards, and #9 in rating given the above is already an outstanding accomplishment. I believe PFF ranked TB12 #2 only behind Rodgers.

TB12 has already set all kinds of franchise records in just his 1st year and on top of that, he brings a perennial loser franchise to their 1st playoff appearance in 13 years despite what everyone said was terrible play calling by his OC until recent games.

Instead of acknowledging any of the above, TommyBrady12 moves the goal posts to say TB12's season will be a complete failure unless he wins the SB. Lmao. All this hate because TB12 dared not retire a NEP like TommyBrady12 wanted him to. Wow. This clownish behavior is just sad.

"Photo of TommyBrady12 riding the Metro in D.C. after hearing Bucs make the playoffs."

Interesting. My sources had a different photo.

 

[PatsWSB47]

TommyBrady12 continues his disingenuous rants cherry picking TB12's stats this season that even haters like Sharpe and ****erson agree exceeded expectations.

Our resident jilted bride ignores TB12 played within a new system, new OL, WRs, OC, HC, City at the age of 43 after spending 20 years in NEP. TB12 coming in at #2 in TDs, #3 in yards, and #9 in rating given the above is already an outstanding accomplishment. I believe PFF ranked TB12 #2 only behind Rodgers.

TB12 has already set all kinds of franchise records in just his 1st year and on top of that, he brings a perennial loser franchise to their 1st playoff appearance in 13 years despite what everyone said was terrible play calling by his OC until recent games.

Instead of acknowledging any of the above, TommyBrady12 moves the goal posts to say TB12's season will be a complete failure unless he wins the SB. Lmao. All this hate because TB12 dared not retire a NEP like TommyBrady12 wanted him to. Wow. This clownish behavior is just sad.

"Photo of TommyBrady12 riding the Metro in D.C. after hearing Bucs make the playoffs."

He takes it a step further though. Because his arguments fail with us so often with Brady's play with Tampa, he's had to reach back and criticize his entire career by bringing up every negative play and stat he can find.

 

[Tottie]

Yes, but how can you put a percentage on Brady's value vis-a-vis Belichick's? Impossible. You don't think coaches have taken scrub QBs to championships before? Brian Billick, Jon Gruden, Bill Parcells, and Mike Ditka are a few that have...

I think it varies but in Brady's case he's worth alot. And yes, there have been scrubs in championships just like there have been loads of other anomalies throughout. We aren't talking about one offs though. In any case I don't want Bill to leave nor do I think he needs to apologize for anything even if I blame him for mishandling the Brady exit. I'm sick of hearing guys say "you don't pay 40 year olds". Sure, whatever. In any case we move forward and hopefully this year Brady wins and next we position ourselves to have a shot.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

TommyBrady12 continues his disingenuous rants cherry picking TB12's stats this season that even haters like Sharpe and ****erson agree exceeded expectations.

Our resident jilted bride ignores TB12 played within a new system, new OL, WRs, OC, HC, City at the age of 43 after spending 20 years in NEP. TB12 coming in at #2 in TDs, #3 in yards, and #9 in rating given the above is already an outstanding accomplishment. I believe PFF ranked TB12 #2 only behind Rodgers.

TB12 has already set all kinds of franchise records in just his 1st year and on top of that, he brings a perennial loser franchise to their 1st playoff appearance in 13 years despite what everyone said was terrible play calling by his OC until recent games.

Instead of acknowledging any of the above, TommyBrady12 moves the goal posts to say TB12's season will be a complete failure unless he wins the SB. Lmao. All this hate because TB12 dared not retire a NEP like TommyBrady12 wanted him to. Wow. This clownish behavior is just sad.

"Photo of TommyBrady12 riding the Metro in D.C. after hearing Bucs make the playoffs."

Hey Venocol, I found a picture of you..a hispanic guy at the Bucs game in love with Brady so much that he switched teams. Am I right?

 

[203Pat]

Lol @ the guy who moved to a new city and rooted for a new team attempting to chastise other for the same behavior. His trolling knows no bounds.

 

[venecol]

.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Hey Venocol, I found a picture of you..a hispanic guy at the Bucs game in love with Brady so much that he switched teams. Am I right?

LOL, says the guy who's screen name is TommyBrady12.......and why did you feel it necessary to have to point out the guy in the picture's ethnicity?

 

[203Pat]

LOL, says the guy who's screen name is TommyBrady12.......and why did you feel it necessary to have to point out the guy in the picture's ethnicity?

He's had a few posts of that nature.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

LOL, says the guy who's screen name is TommyBrady12.......and why did you feel it necessary to have to point out the guy in the picture's ethnicity?

Because the photo describes him quite well

 

[Kontradiction]

Looks like you have people that want to fight you.

Based on the unprecedented 20 year run of greatness, you would be hard pressed to find a better GM. Bill Polian, for all his hatred of the Pats, Got it done for Buffalo, Carolina (to a certain extent) and the Colts. You don't have to love the guy to respect his body of work. Ron wolf, Ozzie Newsome, Bobby Beathard, Tex Schramm, Bill Walsh and George Young would all be on a short list. Bill is somewhere in there. I will go so far as to say Bill's inability to draft, develop and coach a top level, outside the numbers WR is the main reason the detractors hate on Bill so much. I think the GOAT GM is a very subjective title, but Bill certainly deserves a seat at the table.

Show me a GM who has done it better for longer, during the free agent period.

I do assert BB is the greatest GM in the history of the league. Thanks for the shout out. I base it on drafting, trades, UDFAs, FAs, contracts, team construction, and most of all winning. Imagine what kind of out of this world HC BB would need to be to win an NFL record 6 SB titles with a GM as bad as people on here profess him to be !

Though I must say that Colbert (PIT) could be argued to be better, and I wouldn't object to that. But while BB wins 2:1 of his SBs, Colbert's Steelers don't have nearly the same success. My argument : PIT excels at drafting the flashy skill positions (pass rusher, WR, RB) and fans who only want to skim the surface are enamoured with the glitz. OL and DB depth is maybe a weakness and has bitten Colbert more than once.

BB is the GOAT HC, but not the GOAT GM. He benefits from four things as a GM - catching lightning in a bottle on a QB that he passed up for 6 rounds, said QB taking less money over the years to help sign key free agents, the ability as the GOAT HC to coach up lesser players, and recency bias.

I’d rank the following GMs, in no particular order, over BB...

1. Ozzie Newsome
2. Bobby Beathard
3. George Halas
4. Tex Schramm
5. Bill Walsh
6. Ernie Accorsi
7. George Young
8. **** Haley
9. Ron Wolf

BB would come in somewhere after these. I’m sure there’s probably a few that I’ve forgotten. With the exception of Walsh, all did it without the GOAT at the most important position on the field. Bill also had the advantage of walking into a situation in which some key stalwarts in the first dynasty were already on the team. McGinest, Bruschi, Vinatieri, Ty Law, Ted Johnson, Milloy, and Kevin Faulk. Then they won 3 in 4 years. Following that, even though they had the GOAT in his absolute prime, the team proceeded to go on a 10-year drought between Lombardis thanks in large part to BB’s personnel failures as a GM. The drafts from 2005-2009 were not good. They left the team bereft of young talent while the dynasty defense became long in the tooth. They had to rely on FA signings and trades, which pushed them up against the cap. That shouldn’t happen to a GM that’s considered the GOAT.

Exit Scott Pioli and enter Floyd Reese. Chung, Vollmer, Edelman, McCourty, Gronk, Spikes, Hernandez, Solder, Ridley, Vereen, Jones, Hightower, Collins, Ryan, and Harmon all drafted during that period. These players would form the foundation of the second dynasty. Then Reese departed and we went through a similar dry spell from 2014 to roughly 2018 (although this draft is not looking great as time goes on because neither Wynn nor Sony can stay on the god damn field). This left us in a similar position as the decade from 2004-2014 where we went on a dry spell in championships. Players like Easley, Brown, Richards, Cyrus the Virus, and Rivers saw one flop after another with the team’s top overall picks among other missed throughout each draft. This created holes which then needed to be filled by more expensive FA signings and trades, pushing the team up against the cap this offseason. These dry periods should not happen if one is to be considered the GOAT GM. He also ****yfooted around Brady’s contract, essentially granting him one year deals after another while handing him what has been one of the worst receiving corps in the NFL over the last 3 seasons. Brady then left for Tampa and has enjoyed a great season there. He’s still not done. Again, this shouldn’t happen if you’re the GOAT GM. His personnel decisions concluded with letting the GOAT walk and replacing him with the corpse of Cam Newton to go along with what is basically a JV roster. His greatness as a coach got this team to seven wins they had no business getting to. This was a 3-13, 4-12 roster.

He’s not the GOAT GM. He’s in the top 10-15 simply because he was lucky enough to get Brady all those years ago and had the cap flexibility to bring in some good FA signings, trades, and some boom/bust drafts. He IS, however, the GOAT HC. You won’t get me disputing that. But his failures as a GM quite possibly cost this team more Lombardi trophies from 2004-2014.

 

[sean10mm]

I think you're underrating Belichick some there, but in terms of pure talent pulled in I don't know that he's historically great overall, unless we're grading Brady as anything but a hilarious fluke.

Overall he's very good on the defensive side in the draft and FA/trades. The Pats have had more than their fair share of iconic defensive players during the dynasty years. Yes, coaching did maximize the talent, but you can't argue that they haven't had quality rosters on D for most of this run.

OL quality has been consistently good. Again you can point to BB the coach (and Scar) making the most of them, but plenty of the guys were also just good players in a vacuum. The running back position has usually been a quality platoon setup at least.

Cap management has been elite for almost the entire run. Brady has some discount years without a doubt, but this has been exaggerated by some - for instance in 2010 he was the highest paid player in football.

Just How Much Has Tom Brady Given Up In His Career | Over the Cap

Just How Much Has Tom Brady Given Up In His Career | Over the Cap

overthecap.com

WR has been a dumpster fire in the draft outside Deion Branch, and also Edelman but he was a multi year project picked late that was basically pure luck. TE has Gronk and a ton of wasted picks with a "good player/angel dust powered murderer" thrown in there that you can grade however you like I guess. Also a ton of WR busts in FA to go with the nice role players and the Randy Moss/Wes Welker jackpot of 2007.