OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[PatsBoy12]

 

[PatsBoy12]

 

[PatsBoy12]

 

[203Pat]

SB1 and his group are on suicide watch

His hissy fit in the GDT yesterday literally made me laugh out loud.

 

[Brandon_Cox]

Mitchell was derailed by injuries, but that has nothing to do with the talent evaluation, especially since his injury history began in the pros.

Yeah, no. Mitchell tore his ACL and missed a year at UGA. One of the reasons he slipped to the 4th round was because of his bad knees. Still a great pick since he helped us win a Super Bowl.

 

[lancerman]

You dont want include Harry because it makes your comment more ridiculous.

The Steelers success at drafting WRs blows the Patriots to kingdom come. Its not even close.

Since 2009, Pittsburgh has drafted 4 Elite Stud WRs. NE has drafted ZERO. Edelman was a QB at Kent State and not a pure WR. NE developed Edelman over time. This discussion is about drafted WRs that step in to the role day 1.

Pittsburgh
2009 Mike Wallace best season 1257 yards and 10 TDs
2010 Emanuel Sanders best season 1400 yards and 9 TDs
Antonio Brown best season 1600 yards and 13 TDs
2017 Ju Ju Smith best season 1400 yards and 7 TDs

None of the NE WRs drafted since 2009 come within 100 miles of these numbers
2009 Tate
2010 Price
2012 Ebert
2013 Dobson, Boyce
2014 Gallon
2016 Mitchell, Lucien
2018 Berrios
2019 Harry

Even if you go just Belichick regime.... Edelman and Branch are FAR and away the stars of the WR’s drafted.

Ward, Burress, Holmes, Brown, Sanders, Smith-Schuster.

That’s just the top end from 1998-present. Branch couldn’t cut it outside New England and I suspect Edelman would have many issues on another team.

I would honestly argue every guy I mentioned was straight up better than our cream of the crop draftees. So yeah the comparison works if you value hits in a vacuum. Then Antonio Brown and Deion Branch are worth the same. But we both know that’s not the case

 

[amfootball]

I don’t see how they’ve been “exposing him” considering both of their production was better in New England than so far in Tampa. Sounds like a typical knee jerk article like the knee jerk articles three weeks ago proclaiming the Patriots offense better with Newton.

I’ve said for years that McDaniels is overrated though. He isn’t an idiot...it’s just that with Brady, prime Gronk, etc., there are a lot offensive coordinators who would look like geniuses. When challenged with short handed personnel, I haven’t seen much brilliance from him at all.

He didn’t do well in Denver or St. Louis; heck, even Bill O’Brien was brilliant when he had Brady. He gets too much credit for the team’s success.

But most of this is just the nature of coaching...like how the Ravens brought in so many offensive coordinators yet Joe Flacco always wound up with a passer rating of 83 - and prime to check downs - despite so much talk about concepts and schemes. There are only a few coordinators who truly seem to stand out over a long period of time with major personnel ups and downs.

I have said this forever too about McDaniels too. He is a good OC but nothing special. Of course he was fantastic with Brady. I mean look at Byron Leftwich right now. LOL. Bucs are in the top 10 now for points scored. Brady is #2 only behind Wilson for most TD passes. It is ALWAYS the players that make coaches look good. Bill says this all the time.

 

[sb1]

Brady was good yesterday. I thought he played well against Chicago too, 4th-down-gate notwithstanding.

But it was the Bucs defense that won that game yesterday, without a doubt. They were phenomenal. No penalties (I think) too.

 

[ScottishPatriots]

Brady had 166 yards passing and the defense won the game, it was a 2019 Brady performance.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Brady had 166 yards passing and the defense won the game, it was a 2019 Brady performance.

Explain

 

[lancerman]

This is hilarious.

you did a lot of work for NOTHING. Because you didn't read the main point. The Steelers expend a lot of draft resources on receivers!! Holy cow, how did you miss this?

I didn't say the Patriots are just as successful as the Steelers with receivers? I said they had the same hit rate!!!

How did you miss this?

Again your problem is that you are ignoring a quality difference and going by hits.

Like I said the Steelers since 1998 have drafted Ward, Burress, Holmes, Sanders, Brown, and Smith-Schuster.....

Who cares about your methodology when you count Mitchell who played one full year and barely cracked 400 yards and David Givens who lasted 5 years in the league and never broke 1000 yards and only had 3 years where he had double digit receptions as being of equal value in the hit rate as those guys?

It’s practically worthless

 

[TBR]

You dont want include Harry because it makes your comment more ridiculous.

The Steelers success at drafting WRs blows the Patriots to kingdom come. Its not even close.

Since 2009, Pittsburgh has drafted 4 Elite Stud WRs. NE has drafted ZERO. Edelman was a QB at Kent State and not a pure WR. NE developed Edelman over time. This discussion is about drafted WRs that step in to the role day 1.

Pittsburgh
2009 Mike Wallace best season 1257 yards and 10 TDs
2010 Emanuel Sanders best season 1400 yards and 9 TDs
Antonio Brown best season 1600 yards and 13 TDs
2017 Ju Ju Smith best season 1400 yards and 7 TDs

None of the NE WRs drafted since 2009 come within 100 miles of these numbers
2009 Tate
2010 Price
2012 Ebert
2013 Dobson, Boyce
2014 Gallon
2016 Mitchell, Lucien
2018 Berrios
2019 Harry

Chase Claypool is another huge hit for the Steelers. Even guys like Martavis Bryant and James Washington, production-wise, would be 3rd after Branch and Edelman.

 

[TBR]

Brady had 166 yards passing and the defense won the game, it was a 2019 Brady performance.

He made several great throws, especially two to Gronk and converted in the red-zone successfully on 3rd down early in the game. Can't knock him for having a short field to work with on a few occasions. He also doesn't get credit for yards on his deep throw to Miller, which was placed perfectly and only missed dropping straight into his hands (bonked the defender in the head) because the CB was tackling Miller as the ball was dropping in. It set up 1st & goal from the 2 to put the game away early 4th Q.

 

[farn]

I have said this forever too about McDaniels too. He is a good OC but nothing special. Of course he was fantastic with Brady. I mean look at Byron Leftwich right now. LOL. Bucs are in the top 10 now for points scored. Brady is #2 only behind Wilson for most TD passes. It is ALWAYS the players that make coaches look good. Bill says this all the time.

Bucs 4-2. What are their offensive stats in the 4 games OTHER than the two blowouts ?

I think they are doing well, but upon closer examination, I wonder what the stats are w/o yesterday & the other (5 TD) game.

 

[Brandon_Cox]

Brady had 166 yards passing and the defense won the game, it was a 2019 Brady performance.

At halftime, Brady was 14-for-16 for 111 yards with two touchdowns and no interceptions, and had a 135.2 passer rating. They shut it down in the second half because they were so far ahead, thanks to a great defensive performance.

 

[amfootball]

Bucs 4-2. What are their offensive stats in the 4 games OTHER than the two blowouts ?

I think they are doing well, but upon closer examination, I wonder what the stats are w/o yesterday & the other (5 TD) game.

They have only played 6 games and of course you want to eliminate their 2 best games? LOL. It's not like they have not scored in the other games other than the Bears game. What are the Pats offensive stats if you just take out the Seattle game? Because even with the Seattle game the Pats are 25 in points scored. Probably at 30ish without Seattle game.

 

[TBR]

Bucs 4-2. What are their offensive stats in the 4 games OTHER than the two blowouts ?

I think they are doing well, but upon closer examination, I wonder what the stats are w/o yesterday & the other (5 TD) game.

Their loss to the Bears (riddled with injuries on offense, short week/Thursday night game) and Saints (very first game) aren't worth drawing conclusions from.

 

[upstater1]

Some drafts are not good WR drafts.

Some drafts are good WR drafts and NE picks Brandon Tate over Mike Wallace. Kneal Harry over DK Metcalf or Terry McLaurin. Chad Jackson over Greg Jennings or Brandon Marshall.

Same success rate as Pittsburgh? No

Players that the Steelers consider buts like Wheaton and Bryant would be considered Stars on the Pats.

Wheaton 3rd 749 yards and 5 TDs
Bryant 4th 765 yards and 6 TDs

I didn't count Bryant as a bust. I counted him as one of the successes.

As for Wheaton, he was a prime pick who did nothing for 5 of his 7 years in the league, literally nothing. And he averaged 40+ catches the only 2 years that he was decent. If I'm going to give the Steelers credit for him, I have to give Belichick credit for Brandon Tate or for Dobson's first year, which was comparable. In my view, they were all busts.

Martavis was a head case, but he had both the ability and the skills to be a very good NFL WR. So I don't count him as a Steelers bust, but rather a success. Martavis didn't work out. Just like Malcolm Mitchell didn't work out (for another reason, injuries). But the actual evaluation was not off on either Mitchell nor on Martavis. So: Mitchell and Martavis are not counted as busts. But: Tate, Dobson and Wheaton are.

 

[upstater1]

Again your problem is that you are ignoring a quality difference and going by hits.

Like I said the Steelers since 1998 have drafted Ward, Burress, Holmes, Sanders, Brown, and Smith-Schuster.....

Who cares about your methodology when you count Mitchell who played one full year and barely cracked 400 yards and David Givens who lasted 5 years in the league and never broke 1000 yards and only had 3 years where he had double digit receptions as being of equal value in the hit rate as those guys?

It’s practically worthless

Uh, Hines Ward was drafted before all this. What's next, should I credit Irving Fryar and Terry Glenn to the Patriots?

You're missing what I said. I never wrote that the Patriots are just as good at drafting WRs. My whole point is that the Patriots do not expend enough draft resources in picking them.

This should be evident if you didn't misread my initial post.

The Steelers simply throw a lot more draft picks at the problem of finding a WR, and if you don't believe this explains their success, then explain why they didn't draft their top WRs like Sanders, Wallace, or even Antonio Brown, a 7th rounder, sooner. It's not like they really knew these guys were Pro Bowl level WRs. They just throw picks at the problem. It's like the Tom Brady draft. The Patriots had no idea what they were getting or they would have drafted Brady much sooner. Heck, they didn't even need Brady, as they had just drafted Michael Bishop the year before AND they had a Pro Bowl QB already playing for them. But they drafted Brady anyway. In the 6th round. The Steelers take the same mentality with WRs, and if they find a Antonio Brown there, then great.

 

[bigballas]

I'm struggling with this idea that Dobson was like Mitchell. Don't remember Brady relying on Dobson ever. Mitchell was derailed by injuries, but that has nothing to do with the talent evaluation, especially since his injury history began in the pros. He pretty much showed he could have given us what Givens did with his route running if he had stayed healthy.

are you just going with the gut? looking at data - i would say dobson was relied on more

Aaron Dobson - 12 Games Rookie season - 72 targets, 37 catch for 519 yds.
Malcolm Mitchell - 14 Games Rookie season - 48 targets - 32 catch for 401 yds.

we probably have recency bias because MM showed up big in 4th Q super bowl

...and lol, this threads been totally derailed. lets move on