OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[lancerman]

Uh, Hines Ward was drafted before all this. What's next, should I credit Irving Fryar and Terry Glenn to the Patriots?

You're missing what I said. I never wrote that the Patriots are just as good at drafting WRs. My whole point is that the Patriots do not expend enough draft resources in picking them.

This should be evident if you didn't misread my initial post.

The Steelers simply throw a lot more draft picks at the problem of finding a WR, and if you don't believe this explains their success, then explain why they didn't draft their top WRs like Sanders, Wallace, or even Antonio Brown, a 7th rounder, sooner. It's not like they really knew these guys were Pro Bowl level WRs. They just throw picks at the problem. It's like the Tom Brady draft. The Patriots had no idea what they were getting or they would have drafted Brady much sooner. Heck, they didn't even need Brady, as they had just drafted Michael Bishop the year before AND they had a Pro Bowl QB already playing for them. But they drafted Brady anyway. In the 6th round. The Steelers take the same mentality with WRs, and if they find a Antonio Brown there, then great.

Even if we take your methodology and double it. What effectively happenis we get another Branch and Edelman and 3 years of Harry and 1 year of Mitchell.

That is not superior to the Steelers. That is still zero pro bowls. That is 2 1000 yard seasons.

There is no sane person that would argue even doubling that would be better than what the Steelers have done drafting WR in the current reality.

The Steelers hit more (and yeah I’m not giving you the massive stretches of Givens and Mitchell) and when they hit, they get much higher quality.

We have drafted two guys that had successful careers in the league. Between both they have one 1000 yard season between them and zero pro bowls. One proved he couldn’t succeed outside NE. The other is someone who likely wouldn’t

 

[farn]

They have only played 6 games and of course you want to eliminate their 2 best games? LOL. It's not like they have not scored in the other games other than the Bears game. What are the Pats offensive stats if you just take out the Seattle game? Because even with the Seattle game the Pats are 25 in points scored. Probably at 30ish without Seattle game.

I don’t “want” anything. I’m thinking Tampa is somewhat inconsistent. And people ooh and aah because of 1/3 of their games.

They are doing well, they are 4-2, but my ultimate point is that TB & Gronk have been up n down - and that wouldn’t be enough to “save the 2020 Patriots”.

Some posters are longing for the past. This Brady and this Gronk are indeed what Tampa needs. But I don’t feel they’d “make NE a SB contender in Feb”.

 

[farn]

Their loss to the Bears (riddled with injuries on offense, short week/Thursday night game) and Saints (very first game) aren't worth drawing conclusions from.

But, do you think 2020 Brady + 2020 Gronk + 2020 Patriots won the SB ? I don’t. So, I think people who think “NE only needed Brady & Gronk” to seriously contend for the championship aren’t seeing the full picture.

 

[amfootball]

I don’t “want” anything. I’m thinking Tampa is somewhat inconsistent. And people ooh and aah because of 1/3 of their games.

They are doing well, they are 4-2, but my ultimate point is that TB & Gronk have been up n down - and that wouldn’t be enough to “save the 2020 Patriots”.

Some posters are longing for the past. This Brady and this Gronk are indeed what Tampa needs. But I don’t feel they’d “make NE a SB contender in Feb”.

I agree. There is no saving the 2020 Pats. Both Brady and Gronk made the right decision going to Tampa to try for a ring. That being said, the Pats are most likely 4-1 this year if they had them.

 

[lancerman]

I agree. There is no saving the 2020 Pats. Both Brady and Gronk made the right decision going to Tampa to try for a ring. That being said, the Pats are most likely 4-1 this year if they had them.

Yes but the issue at hand is one left because he wasn’t happy with how he was treated and one was worn out playing here and came out of retirement to go somewhere else. Aka the two people that could have made this team at least respectable left because they specifically wanted to be anywhere but here.

 

[farn]

I agree. There is no saving the 2020 Pats. Both Brady and Gronk made the right decision going to Tampa to try for a ring. That being said, the Pats are most likely 4-1 this year if they had them.

So that is more “what I was referring to”. I think both of them are “fine, but inconsistent” and that might be enough for Tampa 2020. They rolled the dice & I’d say early returns are positive.

The “we messed up letting Brady go” crowd : some of them think the 2020 Patriots would be contenders if they had stayed. I don’t. It’s rebuild time.

 

[amfootball]

Yes but the issue at hand is one left because he wasn’t happy with how he was treated and one was worn out playing here and came out of retirement to go somewhere else. Aka the two people that could have made this team at least respectable left because they specifically wanted to be anywhere but here.

Brady left because Bill did not offer him a contract despite Brady wanting an extension going back to 2017. Gronk was beat up and took a season off and then went to play with the GOAT after Bill threatened to trade him in 2018.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Onwenu has not had near enough playing time to make a judgement on. Damien Harris did nothing today and pretty much got benched. Wynn is decent, he sucked today though. I notice no WR's or TE's.

its a head scratcher that everyone is jumping so quickly to annoint Damien Harris as our premiere back... He's had 1 productive game in his career and suddenly hes the answer at RB?

I'm rooting for the guy, but its amusing how some players are given the scarlet letter and are criticized constantly for not putting up hall of fame numbers every game, and then some other players put up pedestrian games and are annointed as the 2nd coming

 

[sb1]

So that is more “what I was referring to”. I think both of them are “fine, but inconsistent” and that might be enough for Tampa 2020. They rolled the dice & I’d say early returns are positive.

The “we messed up letting Brady go” crowd : some of them think the 2020 Patriots would be contenders if they had stayed. I don’t. It’s rebuild time.

Also Brady left by his own choice. "We" didn't let anyone go and didn't mess up a thing.

Yeah Patriots wouldn't be any better off right now if he stayed for sure. We'd still have a disgruntled QB that showed nothing in 2019 with the very same weapons that we still have. Brady is playing well as I said he would in Tampa and he's much better there than he would ever be here in 2020. Indisputable fact.

Gronk is a non issue, he was never coming back here and I'm good with that.

 

[lancerman]

Brady left because Bill did not offer him a contract despite Brady wanting an extension going back to 2017. Gronk was beat up and took a season off and then went to play with the GOAT after Bill threatened to trade him in 2018.

So both players didn’t want to be here after they felt disrespected.

 

[farn]

So both players didn’t want to be here after they felt disrespected.

They wanted to leave. And I’ve never understood “disrespect”. It’s lame.

They played and got paid for playing according to contracts they signed. When it didn’t work for both parties, they signed new contracts and are getting paid for playing.

 

[lancerman]

They wanted to leave. And I’ve never understood “disrespect”. It’s lame.

They played and got paid for playing according to contracts they signed. When it didn’t work for both parties, they signed new contracts and are getting paid for playing.

And pretty much every report about Brady leaving said something along the lines of “he wanted a commitment and wanted to feel appreciated and he didn’t so that’s when he started toying with the idea of leaving and this year the team kicked the can again on contract talks and he didn’t want to play ball anymore”. It was a respect thing. He signed with Tampa on a relatively value contract with the only caveat being they tie themselves to him for two years (which isn’t long if he falls apart). It was a respect and feeling appreciated thing. You can choose not to understand it, but that extra year on the contract isn’t a big commitment.

With Gronk there were no indications he was coming out of retirement if Brady stayed in NE. His quote when he did was that Brady told him “football’s fun again”.

Take all that for what you will. They had issues with playing here.

 

[farn]

And pretty much every report about Brady leaving said something along the lines of “he wanted a commitment and wanted to feel appreciated and he didn’t so that’s when he started toying with the idea of leaving and this year the team kicked the can again on contract talks and he didn’t want to play ball anymore”. It was a respect thing. He signed with Tampa on a relatively value contract with the only caveat being they tie themselves to him for two years (which isn’t long if he falls apart). It was a respect and feeling appreciated thing. You can choose not to understand it, but that extra year on the contract isn’t a big commitment.

With Gronk there were no indications he was coming out of retirement if Brady stayed in NE. His quote when he did was that Brady told him “football’s fun again”.

Take all that for what you will. They had issues with playing here.

So your boss needs to praise you and you need to have fun at work. Got it.

Players need to grow up & grow a pair. This “respect” shtick is old. I’m not in the camp of “they can’t complain because of their high salaries”, but the respect thing is just plain weird.

 

[amfootball]

And pretty much every report about Brady leaving said something along the lines of “he wanted a commitment and wanted to feel appreciated and he didn’t so that’s when he started toying with the idea of leaving and this year the team kicked the can again on contract talks and he didn’t want to play ball anymore”. It was a respect thing. He signed with Tampa on a relatively value contract with the only caveat being they tie themselves to him for two years (which isn’t long if he falls apart). It was a respect and feeling appreciated thing. You can choose not to understand it, but that extra year on the contract isn’t a big commitment.

With Gronk there were no indications he was coming out of retirement if Brady stayed in NE. His quote when he did was that Brady told him “football’s fun again”.

Take all that for what you will. They had issues with playing here.

Imagine a player wanting a contract? Glory be. That is how players are kept by actually offering them a contract. Bill did not match that value contract Brady got from Tampa. So how would you feel? Despite all reports that Brady was asking for the moon, clearly he wasn't but Bill did not even want him at $25 mil a year for 2 years. And Bill traded Gronk so it was Bill that did not want Gronk.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The Buccaneers thread seems like the logical place to discuss a deep analysis of Steelers versus Patriots wide receiver draft picks.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Also Brady left by his own choice. "We" didn't let anyone go and didn't mess up a thing.

Yeah Patriots wouldn't be any better off right now if he stayed for sure. We'd still have a disgruntled QB that showed nothing in 2019 with the very same weapons that we still have. Brady is playing well as I said he would in Tampa and he's much better there than he would ever be here in 2020. Indisputable fact.

Gronk is a non issue, he was never coming back here and I'm good with that.

Brady was injured in 2019, in addition to playing with scab-like players after Edelman and White. This was actually reported and not just speculation:

Report: Tom Brady Dealing With 'Tennis Elbow'

Though Brady is not on the injury report this week, a detail about his ailment came out on Saturday, when NFL Network's Mike Giardi reported that Brady is dealing with "essentially a tennis elbow."

boston.cbslocal.com

The guy played at the highest level for almost 20 years, had a down season (with both the injury and scab-like players), proclaimed to everyone who would listen that he wanted to play at least three more years and that he could physically do it.

Sure, the Patriots would be better off right now. Oh, I'm sorry...I guess I'm not well versed in interpreting the Patriots these days. I thought I just read that for the first time in 18 years, they are below .500 this late in the season. I keep reading about how awesome they are despite getting blown out in Kansas City and then losing to one of the worst teams in the NFL at home. But yeah...I'm sure they wouldn't be any better off with Tom Brady. It's all just a coincidence.

 

[lancerman]

So your boss needs to praise you and you need to have fun at work. Got it.

Players need to grow up & grow a pair. This “respect” shtick is old. I’m not in the camp of “they can’t complain because of their high salaries”, but the respect thing is just plain weird.

Actually yeah. Culture is a huge consideration for many job changes. I know a ton of people that went to high end business schools, got a job at the big 5, hated how they were treated there, knew that they would make bank if they stuck it out five years, and ultimately said “screw it” because they found a place they felt more valued and happier. Many. It’s why those companies have massive turnovers rates despite everyone knowing the windfall if you stick it out.

Brady is the most successful player ever. He knew what he had in NE with the best coach he’s ever going to play for and the most conducive environment to winning. Now that his legacy is secure he decided he’d rather finish his career somewhere he could just play football and feel like a partner in the team process and the most successful TE ran to join him after getting burned out here.

You can choose not to get it, but the fact that we are one of the few teams that had an all time great QB leave without a real replacement (Rodgers/Luck/Young) or before he was washed.... that says something.

 

[Kontradiction]

You won't dignify the question? I didn't ask you who your mom lost her virginity to, I asked you about which NFL team you root for. C'mon - answer the question. I don't mean it as a "gotcha", I'm trying to better understand where your head is at.

Do you find yourself rooting for the Patriots at all anymore? Would you identify as a Bucs' fan at this point?

--

As for your original post about the detractors, I'm sure the anti-Brady crowd will continue to bang their drum, the pro-Brady crowd will do the same, and the objective analysts will evaluate his play week-to-week as they have been. Today was a great game for him (and Tampa), but it's just one game, one data point, in a season with 16+ data points. Still a lot of games left to be played before any lasting conclusions can be drawn.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what the battle here is, exactly. Is Brady still a very good NFL QB? Of course. Anyone saying otherwise is out of their mind. The problem is that statements suggesting he may not be *the best* anymore, or that he isn't as good as he used to be, are met with fury and wrath and immediately labeled as the opinion of a "detractor", which is an unfortunate response.

There's a thoughtful discussion to be had about Brady's level of play over the course of his career, relative to other QBs, etc -- but I see very little of that thoughtful discussion being nurtured or encouraged in this thread. It's basically 150+ pages of folks trading barbs back and forth, and very little actual, meaningful conversation ... from either "side".

Of course you meant it as a gotcha. Weren’t you leaving over the “racism” on this forum, too? Nobody really ever leaves.

 

[upstater1]

are you just going with the gut? looking at data - i would say dobson was relied on more

Aaron Dobson - 12 Games Rookie season - 72 targets, 37 catch for 519 yds.
Malcolm Mitchell - 14 Games Rookie season - 48 targets - 32 catch for 401 yds.

we probably have recency bias because MM showed up big in 4th Q super bowl

...and lol, this threads been totally derailed. lets move on

#1. Nothing can derail this thread.

#2. Mitchell looked like a guy who knew how to play the position and who had sure hands. Look at the roster for those years:

a. Dobson got 72 targets, 3rd most on the team, just 11 fewer targets than Amendola. That only resulted in 37 receptions. 51% completion rate. Lots of drops.

b. Mitchell got 48 targets, 5th most on the team, for 32 receptions or a 67% completion rate, few drops. This is a huge difference in performance,

c. Yes, the Super Bowl makes a lot of difference. And it wasn't even the entire game. He played great in 1 quarter. The 4th quarter. When the team was down by multiple touchdowns. Seriously, he was targeted 7 times the whole game, made 6 catches. But in the 4th quarter, he was targeted 5 times. He made 5 catches. And the best part: 4 first downs. He was clutch. He did the things that make a receiver reliable in the most crucial situations. I compare him to Givens.

 

[upstater1]

Even if we take your methodology and double it. What effectively happenis we get another Branch and Edelman and 3 years of Harry and 1 year of Mitchell.

That is not superior to the Steelers. That is still zero pro bowls. That is 2 1000 yard seasons.

There is no sane person that would argue even doubling that would be better than what the Steelers have done drafting WR in the current reality.

The Steelers hit more (and yeah I’m not giving you the massive stretches of Givens and Mitchell) and when they hit, they get much higher quality.

We have drafted two guys that had successful careers in the league. Between both they have one 1000 yard season between them and zero pro bowls. One proved he couldn’t succeed outside NE. The other is someone who likely wouldn’t

I didn't say the Patriots would have a superior drafting to the Steelers if only we drafted more.

Nowhere did I say that.

But have the last word because I know now that you're the type to completely take everything I say out of context in order to win an internet argument.

Go ahead, I'm done with this.