OT: Jonnu Smith hates Buffalo (Edit: BB talk)

[upstater1]

The consensus was he couldn’t separate. That’s a major problem. Bill’s scouts saw that and recommended he look somewhere else but Bill overruled them and picked Harry anyway.

That's irrelevant to the discussion.

There are a lot of guys who can't separate. Aiyuk, Boldin, Ill name a ton more.

The question at hand was whether Harry was a reach. He was NOT.

 

[sb1]

Come on... you think that's a demonstration of collaboration? You cant be serious.

Why isn't that collaboration? He asked if the room was ok with it. He wasn't making picks in a silo. But at no point did he give up his final say over the football ops but he said he'd try to listen more.

It's well established that you hate Belichick.

I said a bunch of times that BB lost me during the Judge/Patricia fiasco and I thought it was time for him to go... but that doesn't mean I hate him. I don't.

You're going back 9 years in a 20 year career to pick out a mistake he made in a game? Really? Pathetic.

Have you gone back to Brady's mistakes that were papered over by the rest of the team coming through when Brady couldn't?

I recall Brady once saying, "Sorry everyone, I really sucked tonight." I was in the stands when he said that. It was a huge win.

Not sure what Brady has to do with this - you asked about 2015 and I explained it.

 

[sb1]

That's irrelevant to the discussion.

There are a lot of guys who can't separate. Aiyuk, Boldin, Ill name a ton more.

The question at hand was whether Harry was a reach. He was NOT.

The point was Bill's scouts wanted to look elsewhere... Bill went with Harry anyway.

Harry couldn't separate and it's funny you mention Boldin because Harry's main strength was to be a 50-50 jump ball guy just like Boldin... and we don't play that kind of offense here.

 

[upstater1]

Why isn't that collaboration? He asked if the room was ok with it. He wasn't making picks in a silo. But at no point did he give up his final say over the football ops but he said he'd try to listen more.

I said a bunch of times that BB lost me during the Judge/Patricia fiasco and I thought it was time for him to go... but that doesn't mean I hate him. I don't.

Not sure what Brady has to do with this - you asked about 2015 and I explained it.

LOL, so that's what Kraft needed to see? It was all a show?

NEWSFLASH: Belichick isn't actually a scout. He may make the final decisions, but at the end of the day, there are people who spend their entire lives making the evaluations.

Don't tell me that Kraft wanting a new face of the franchise played no role in that decision. He wanted to love Mac and make him the face.

As for Brady... I'm talking about your vendetta against Belichick for how it ended with Brady. The idea of picking a bad decision of play from any of the previous 20 years is mind-boggling. You can't win the Super Bowl every year. Brady wasn't perfect either.

 

[upstater1]

The point was Bill's scouts wanted to look elsewhere... Bill went with Harry anyway.

Harry couldn't separate and it's funny you mention Boldin because Harry's main strength was to be a 50-50 jump ball guy just like Boldin... and we don't play that kind of offense here.

Go back to the original discussion here. You're talking about something totally different.

"It was a bad choice because the player was bad. Using this logic, N'Keal Harry was a good choice because he was predicted to go a couple picks earlier and many others like him. But Harry sucked and so did Jones."

The vast majority of scouts liked Harry and predicted he'd go earlier.

He had MORE backing than Mac.

That was my point.

If you're going to call Mac "not a bad pick" you'd have to say the same about Harry.

Both players suck and ended up busting. But what were people saying about them before they were picked and on the day they were picked? Harry had more support.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Go back to the original discussion here. You're talking about something totally different.

"It was a bad choice because the player was bad. Using this logic, N'Keal Harry was a good choice because he was predicted to go a couple picks earlier and many others like him. But Harry sucked and so did Jones."

The vast majority of scouts liked Harry and predicted he'd go earlier.

He had MORE backing than Mac.

That was my point.

If you're going to call Mac "not a bad pick" you'd have to say the same about Harry.

Both players suck and ended up busting. But what were people saying about them before they were picked and on the day they were picked? Harry had more support.

At the end of the day it really wasn't choosing Mac or even promoting Patricia that was the fundamental issue. The problem was that BB broke from his philosophy of immediately moving on from things that did not work. In the case of Patricia he should have replaced him at the end of camp when it was clear that he was not the guy. While it would have been a tough situation, the team would have been better off than staying the course because it was too late to change. Mac actually followed his scouting report by showing that he could operate an NFL offense within the limitations of his physical capability. In retrospect it was probably too early to move on after year 1, there was no way he should have been the only option in year three.

The resulting organizational dysfunction impacted all parts of the team, causing BB, ownership and players to focus on their own personal results and priorities. The only thing that is certain is that fundamental change was needed.

 

[sb1]

Go back to the original discussion here. You're talking about something totally different.

"It was a bad choice because the player was bad. Using this logic, N'Keal Harry was a good choice because he was predicted to go a couple picks earlier and many others like him. But Harry sucked and so did Jones."

The vast majority of scouts liked Harry and predicted he'd go earlier.

He had MORE backing than Mac.

That was my point.

If you're going to call Mac "not a bad pick" you'd have to say the same about Harry.

Both players suck and ended up busting. But what were people saying about them before they were picked and on the day they were picked? Harry had more support.

Every report I saw said the same thing... he lacks speed compared to his peers and will struggle to separate. His scouts didn't like him but Bill picked him anyway. That one hurts especially knowing who was available.

Jones was a bust in NE but the Patriots needed a QB and he was there. If BB went against his scouts who recommended Jones to pick some other QB (and he busted) then that would have been a bad pick as well. There was no comparable QB to Jones at #15.

 

[upstater1]

At the end of the day it really wasn't choosing Mac or even promoting Patricia that was the fundamental issue. The problem was that BB broke from his philosophy of immediately moving on from things that did not work. In the case of Patricia he should have replaced him at the end of camp when it was clear that he was not the guy. While it would have been a tough situation, the team would have been better off than staying the course because it was too late to change. Mac actually followed his scouting report by showing that he could operate an NFL offense within the limitations of his physical capability. In retrospect it was probably too early to move on after year 1, there was no way he should have been the only option in year three.

The resulting organizational dysfunction impacted all parts of the team, causing BB, ownership and players to focus on their own personal results and priorities. The only thing that is certain is that fundamental change was needed.

I blame Kraft for most of this dysfunction because he never trusted Belichick after 2019 to let him do the cooking. The major break was foisting Guerrero on Belichick and undermining the coaches. It was all downhill from there. The media has varying insider information whether it's Wickersham or Callahan or Curran about the picks. Harry was BBs, but others have said that Mac, Tyquan and Smith-Schuster were not. I think the people in charge of those 3 decision s are still employed by the Patriots.

 

[upstater1]

Every report I saw said the same thing... he lacks speed compared to his peers and will struggle to separate. His scouts didn't like him but Bill picked him anyway. That one hurts especially knowing who was available.

Jones was a bust in NE but the Patriots needed a QB and he was there. If BB went against his scouts who recommended Jones to pick some other QB (and he busted) then that would have been a bad pick as well. There was no comparable QB to Jones at #15.

All you need to do is read this board from back then. The threads are still there. They prove you wrong.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

I blame Kraft for most of this dysfunction because he never trusted Belichick after 2019 to let him do the cooking. The major break was foisting Guerrero on Belichick and undermining the coaches. It was all downhill from there. The media has varying insider information whether it's Wickersham or Callahan or Curran about the picks. Harry was BBs, but others have said that Mac, Tyquan and Smith-Schuster were not. I think the people in charge of those 3 decision s are still employed by the Patriots.

It doesn't take much to disrupt the balance of an organization. You can't be a successful leader if you are afraid of making a mistake. In addition to losing some influence, it is likely BB felt less ownership once he was not in full control. Things spiraled from there.

 

[upstater1]

It doesn't take much to disrupt the balance of an organization. You can be a successful leader if you are afraid of making a mistake. In addition to losing some influence, it is likely BB felt less ownership once he was not in full control. Things spiraled from there.

I can agree it would've been better for everyone if BB left when Guerrero was foisted on him in the offseason. It was pointless to continue at that point. If the Krafts think they can reproduce what they did, they are out of their minds. It was mind boggling to me that they considered moving on after 2017.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

I can agree it would've been better for everyone if BB left when Guerrero was foisted on him in the offseason. It was pointless to continue at that point. If the Krafts think they can reproduce what they did, they are out of their minds. It was mind boggling to me that they considered moving on after 2017.

Sorry, there was a very meaningful typo in my original post. I meant to say that you can't be a successful leader if you are afraid of making a mistake. It would have been a bad reflection on RKK and Brady if AG was used as a lever to get rid of BB.

 

[upstater1]

Sorry, there was a very meaningful typo in my original post. I meant to say that you can't be a successful leader if you are afraid of making a mistake. It would have been a bad reflection on RKK and Brady if AG was used as a lever to get rid of BB.

I wasnt saying it was a lever. I was saying it should have been the signal to Belichick that his time in New England was over. Im sure Kraft considered that a possibility.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

I wasnt saying it was a lever. I was saying it should have been the signal to Belichick that his time in New England was over. Im sure Kraft considered that a possibility.

I was proposing a hypothetical scenario with the lever reference. At the time, the AG intervention seemed like an obvious peace keeping move.

You raise a great point that RKK was sick of BB and looking for ways to reduce reliance on a painful employee. After Alexgate in 2017 the team had two super bowl appearances and one Lombardi putting the power back in BB's hands.

 

[upstater1]

I was proposing a hypothetical scenario with the lever reference. At the time, the AG intervention seemed like an obvious peace keeping move.

You raise a great point that RKK was sick of BB and looking for ways to reduce reliance on a painful employee. After Alexgate in 2017 the team had two super bowl appearances and one Lombardi putting the power back in BB's hands.

I think the reinstatement of AG was the only suspect move. Everything before that was just what I would've expected. They drafted Garoppolo expecting he would take over, but Brady didn't deteriorate. So they did the only thing they could've, traded Jimmy G. It all made perfect sense.

I think Belichick wanted to keep coaching and didn't want to move from New England. If this was any other team than the Patriots, Giants or maybe Washington, he would've been gone prior to 2019. So he accepted the Guerrero ultimatum. If he were the coach of Detroit or Las Vegas (2 of the possibilities back in 1998) he wouldnt have stuck around if the owner interfered.

 

[PatsfaninTx]

This thread has gotten way off topic.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

This thread has gotten way off topic.

What are you talking about? BB stands for Buffalo Bills. Good to have camp starting to make the present more interesting than the past.