OT: Football in LA again?

[VrabelMayeWin]

Screw that, I think LA should have 0 NFL teams. Isn't San Diego close enough for those So Cal morons?

Nice generalization of a whole group of people, moron.

 

[Afterlifemobile-86]

Nice generalization of a whole group of people, moron.

Cry me a river, then build a bridge and get over it.

I apologize that my So Cal comment may have ticked off some of the Suppper Sensitive. Jeez, you would think i typed the N word or something.

 

[Rob0729]

Seriously? The Skydome (or whatever the hell they call it now) doesn't have a large football capacity. Doubt they are building a new stadium any time soon. Toronto isn't exactly an economic wonderland. Free agents wanting to play in Canada? Don't think so.

I'm not saying you are incorrect, but that move doesn't make much sense to me.

The Rogers Centre (used to be the Skydome) sits 52,000 for Argonauts games, but that is on a CFL field which is much wider than an NFL field. So they might be able to add more seats. Even so, that is only 5,000 or so less people than what attended the average Colts' home game.

Besides, Toronto is growing both in population and economics. The fact that the Canadian dollar has surpassed the US dollar may attract players who will get paid in Canadian currency and live their offseason in the United States. Also, US citizens get tax breaks when employed outside the country.

Toronto is also the only foreign city with both a MLB team and and NBA team. It wouldn't be surprising to see the NFL wanting a piece of a pie.

The Bills' lease isn't up until 2012. It is plenty of time to start building a stadium that could be ready within a year or two of the Bills move up to Toronto. If a place like Jacksonville or Tampa could figure out how to build a stadium, a much larger city with more economic resources like Toronto could do it to. Toronto is the largest city in Canada and a major international city. They aren't Buffalo.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Cry me a river, then build a bridge and get over it.

I apologize that my So Cal comment may have ticked off some of the Suppper Sensitive. Jeez, you would think i typed the N word or something.

You might as well have done, there's no inherent difference is there ? No wonder Boston/Northeast people have a reputation as . . . well . . . nevermind.

 

[blackglass3]

Seriously? The Skydome (or whatever the hell they call it now) doesn't have a large football capacity. Doubt they are building a new stadium any time soon. Toronto isn't exactly an economic wonderland. Free agents wanting to play in Canada? Don't think so.

I'm not saying you are incorrect, but that move doesn't make much sense to me.

I think free agents would rather go to a large, diverse city like Toronto over a dying town like Buffalo.

 

[Gumby]

Rob: The Chargers had 91.9% home game attendence in 2007 which is the third worst percentage wise in the NFL. Only Buffalo and Jacksonville were worse. San Deigo was also 21st in average attendence with 65,502 per home game. So the numbers do not support your claim. Besides, one year isn't enough to salvage a team in an area especially after they came off a 14-2 season the year before. The Chargers have yet to prove San Deigo can support a team.

Moving the Jags make a lot of sense, but maybe not to LA. The Chargers have more of a cross over fan base in LA while the Jags have no ties to LA.

Do you honestly believe that a Chargers team in LA would do anything significantly better than the 92% they have in SD. Yeah, they might get higher total #s cause they build a bigger, newer stadium up there; but they still wont fill it up. that is a california thing. There are just too many sunny places with half clothed women to go to at 1 pm on a Sunday afternoon.

The whole reason for moving has nothing to do with stadiums anyway. It is all about size of the media market. FYI:

LA = #2
San Diego # 17
Jacksonville # 50
Buffalo # 52

So, now who do you want to move????

I'm fairly confident it wont be SD.

FYI: Boston = 9

 

[Afterlifemobile-86]

No wonder Boston/Northeast people have a reputation as . . . well . . . nevermind.

What? Being very intelligent? Yes we are, thank you.

 

[BAM!]

I live in Jacksonville and I think it would be in Wayne Weavers best interest to move the Jags out to L.A. The fan base here doesn't deserve an NFL franchise. They can't sell out the stadium even after a couple of playoff seasons so in an effort to sell out the stadium (which was really built for the Florida/Georgia game), they have to cover up 10,000 seats. They can't even get a sponsor for the stadium anymore which is probably the result of not selling out and the stadium being a piece of crap.

The downtown area is small, there are no shops or night life. There is nothing to do downtown. If the city can ever get its infrastructure together, maybe they will be able to expand the city into what it should be, an actual city. Right now the downtown pretty much belongs to the homeless and criminals. I work downtown so I know plenty of people who I work with who either themselves been a victim or know someone who has been a victim of a broad daylight robbery both on the street and within the building in which we work.

This is my home and I'm not going to move because I do see a future here but it is a long term project with no immediate solutions. Either the Jags suffer through it and hope for the best in about 5-10 years or roll the dice and move to an area with much higher upside in terms of revenue and national exposure.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

The Bills are most likely preparing for a permanent move to Toronto. The league wants to go global and a team in either Canada or Mexico is the most logical first step. The league would probably provide a ton of economic assistance to the Bills to move to Toronto.

Wait, LA's not even in Mexico. Officially.

 

[Metaphors]

I think free agents would rather go to a large, diverse city like Toronto over a dying town like Buffalo.

Except Toronto is in Canada (last time I looked). While money is at the top of the list of reasons to sign with a team, working and spending a significant portion of the year in another country is not helpful is getting the best players. SD is a beautiful place to live (fires aside) and JAX has the Florida tax advantages and weather. Just move the Bills to LA, move KC to the AFC South and move Indy to the AFC East (we play them every year anyway).

 

[Rob0729]

Do you honestly believe that a Chargers team in LA would do anything significantly better than the 92% they have in SD. Yeah, they might get higher total #s cause they build a bigger, newer stadium up there; but they still wont fill it up. that is a california thing. There are just too many sunny places with half clothed women to go to at 1 pm on a Sunday afternoon.

The whole reason for moving has nothing to do with stadiums anyway. It is all about size of the media market. FYI:

LA = #2
San Diego # 17
Jacksonville # 50
Buffalo # 52

So, now who do you want to move????

I'm fairly confident it wont be SD.

FYI: Boston = 9

You are exactly right that it is about the media market. That is exactly why San Deigo makes more sense. It isn't about making a team that isn't popular in their own city now or has a low attendence have a better attendence in Los Angeles. It is about turning the LA market into passionate fans of a team.

The Chargers makes perfect sense because there is already a fan base for this team in the greater Los Angeles area. They are already in the AFC West so there is no shake up in the divisions and natural rivalries if they move. This is why Buffalo would never move to LA. The Chargers have an easy out of their lease.


Buffalo shouldn't be in this discussion. It is almost a forgone conclusion that Buffalo will end up in Toronto if they move The league wants to expand internationally and Canada and Mexico are the logical first steps and Toronto is larger than any US city in population not named Los Angeles, New York, or Chicago. They are not playing one regular season and preseason game a year in Toronto for nothing. They are testing the market to see the feasibility of a permanent move.

 

[Rob0729]

Except Toronto is in Canada (last time I looked). While money is at the top of the list of reasons to sign with a team, working and spending a significant portion of the year in another country is not helpful is getting the best players. SD is a beautiful place to live (fires aside) and JAX has the Florida tax advantages and weather. Just move the Bills to LA, move KC to the AFC South and move Indy to the AFC East (we play them every year anyway).

The league does not want to move the Bills away from their natural rivals. That would hurt the Bills popularity.

Why would players not want to move to Canada over say Buffalo, Green Bay, Minnesotta, etc? If money is the top reason to sign with a team, Toronto has several advantages. First, if players are paid in Canadian dollars, they get a raise every time they convert them to US dollars since the Canadian dollar is worth more than the US and the trend seems to be moving that the Canadian dollar will be stronger. Also, US residents get tax breaks on their federal taxes if they work outside the country. So the players get advantages there as long as they do not become Canadian citizens.

I don't see the Blue Jays or Raptors having problems signing free agents. The Blue Jays got Roger Clemens up there for several years and he is all about the money. I don't get why Toronto would be a worse city than other especially if it was in the US, it would be the fourth largest city in the US.

And if there are tax advantages to sign in Jacksonville, isn't that an argument to keep them in Florida over California where taxes are high?

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

First, if players are paid in Canadian dollars, they get a raise every time they convert them to US dollars since the Canadian dollar is worth more than the US and the trend seems to be moving that the Canadian dollar will be stronger.

Sorry, I've seen this 2 times now - it's just flat out wrong. The Canadian dollar has been worth more than the US Dollar for no more than 5-7 days out of the past year. It's hovered between 97-99 cents. Still a significant upgrade over 2+ years ago when it was $.75 or worse, but let's not devalue our currency too much here. Canada's $ is still worth the same amount in relation to global economy, our $ is just down but not likely to remain there forever, putting a franchise in Canada with a small dome location is begging for trouble - when currency markets correct to natural levels (i.e. where they've generally been for 25 years) the franchise would collapse from revenue and player salary issues just like many of the NHL franchises and be forced to move in very short order - not a recipe for success, ask the Rams and Raiders.

 

[Rob0729]

Sorry, I've seen this 2 times now - it's just flat out wrong. The Canadian dollar has been worth more than the US Dollar for no more than 5-7 days out of the past year. It's hovered between 97-99 cents. Still a significant upgrade over 2+ years ago when it was $.75 or worse, but let's not devalue our currency too much here. Canada's $ is still worth the same amount in relation to global economy, our $ is just down but not likely to remain there forever, putting a franchise in Canada with a small dome location is begging for trouble - when currency markets correct to natural levels (i.e. where they've generally been for 25 years) the franchise would collapse from revenue and player salary issues just like many of the NHL franchises and be forced to move in very short order - not a recipe for success, ask the Rams and Raiders.

I thought it has been stronger for the past few months, but if I am wrong I apologize. As for the future, the trend of the dollar if it follows the yen did in the 90s could be down for a long time.

If the NFL moves to Toronto, a new stadium would be built. Besides, compared to Buffalo, their economy even during the lower points was not all that bad.

As for the NHL franchise reference, I still see the Maple Leafs in Toronto. It was the smaller cities that couldn't support the NHL franchises.

As for other sports, Toronto has not had economic problems. The Blue Jays are 11th in payroll in the MLB with $97 million (more than large US cities like Philly, Atlanta, and San Francisco). And baseball doesn't share in the TV revenue or revenue sharing that the NFL has. The Raptors don't have any economic problems.

Toronto is not like most Candian cities. It is the closest to the United States in terms of population and economics. Three of the four major US sports have been successful up there for decades. There is no reason to believe that the NFL can't be if they build a new stadium with 60-70k seats.

The Bills to Toronto looks to become a potential reality in 2013. I don't know why people are so against the possibility when signs look to be pointing in that direction. The Bills aren't playing every year from now until 2012 (their lease ends after that year) for nothing.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=tor

 

[captain stone]

I live in Jacksonville and I think it would be in Wayne Weavers best interest to move the Jags out to L.A. The fan base here doesn't deserve an NFL franchise. They can't sell out the stadium even after a couple of playoff seasons so in an effort to sell out the stadium (which was really built for the Florida/Georgia game), they have to cover up 10,000 seats. They can't even get a sponsor for the stadium anymore which is probably the result of not selling out and the stadium being a piece of crap.

The downtown area is small, there are no shops or night life. There is nothing to do downtown. If the city can ever get its infrastructure together, maybe they will be able to expand the city into what it should be, an actual city. Right now the downtown pretty much belongs to the homeless and criminals. I work downtown so I know plenty of people who I work with who either themselves been a victim or know someone who has been a victim of a broad daylight robbery both on the street and within the building in which we work.

This is my home and I'm not going to move because I do see a future here but it is a long term project with no immediate solutions. Either the Jags suffer through it and hope for the best in about 5-10 years or roll the dice and move to an area with much higher upside in terms of revenue and national exposure.

Thanks for the insight; it can't be easy to admit that your town may not be able to support a big-league team. IIRC, Jacksonville was a surprise winner when the 29th and 30th NFL franchises were awarded; Baltimore, Memphis and Saint Louis were all thought to be more qualified to join Charlotte for the 1995 season. Looks like the league had the right candidates, but in the wrong order of finish.

I also agree with Rob0729 and others who feel that Buffalo's eventual move to Toronto is a fait accompli. Pity.

 

[castlelong1]

Off Topic, about how the rest of the state "loves" Boston.

What? Being very intelligent? Yes we are, thank you.

Yup, every politician claims to be a Beacon Hill insider so they can get that "intelligent" association.

 

[FootballFanetic]

Wilson has said he won't move the Bills while he's alive, but that's as far as he's gone or will go. The team will be sold to the highest bidder after he dies, IMO, and without a hometown discount. Unlike many Bills fans, I don't despise Ralph for doing so (although I wish he'd do more to keep them local as they are a HUGE part of WNY). He could easily have up and moved them years ago--I told him as much at training camp a few years ago and he just laughed and said "What am I going to do? Sit at my dining room table and count my money? Where's the fun in that?" He's a better guy than some Bills fans give him credit for being.

While there's hope a local billionaire (Tom Golisano, owner of Paychex and the Sabres has expressed an interest, for ex.), I suspect it will be Ted Rogers and friends in Toronto who get the Bills. As a Bills fan, I'd take Toronto over LA any day of the week. While it may be heresy to many of my fellow fans, I think the best we can hope for is a "regionalization" of the team after Ralph dies, i.e., something like the "Niagara Frontier Bills", playing some games in a new stadium about 45 minutes south of Toronto (ie., so that Buffalonians can see the team fairly easily as well) with perhaps several a year back in Buffalo. (That last part may not make economic sense, but a guy can dream.) While not ideal, I honestly wouldn't mind that--it would keep the team close, letting Buffalonians see them if they want (but it would suck for Rochesterians and other Central NYers like I used to be in the day), and let the team tap into a large new market more fully to make them more competitive in what is looking more and more unfortunately like the MLBization of the NFL, which I personally suspect will destroy the game's popularity much like it has done for baseball, but we'll see. Toronto is actually quite a wealthy city in addition to being a large one (4th largest or some such in North America I believe, although I'm not certain), so that would go a long ways to more than leveling the economic playing field for the Bills. I find it funny that some folks on this board mock the Bills for moving to T'to--that should be the last thing you all want.

 

[blackglass3]

Wilson has said he won't move the Bills while he's alive, but that's as far as he's gone or will go. The team will be sold to the highest bidder after he dies, IMO, and without a hometown discount. Unlike many Bills fans, I don't despise Ralph for doing so (although I wish he'd do more to keep them local as they are a HUGE part of WNY). He could easily have up and moved them years ago--I told him as much at training camp a few years ago and he just laughed and said "What am I going to do? Sit at my dining room table and count my money? Where's the fun in that?" He's a better guy than some Bills fans give him credit for being.

While there's hope a local billionaire (Tom Golisano, owner of Paychex and the Sabres has expressed an interest, for ex.), I suspect it will be Ted Rogers and friends in Toronto who get the Bills. As a Bills fan, I'd take Toronto over LA any day of the week. While it may be heresy to many of my fellow fans, I think the best we can hope for is a "regionalization" of the team after Ralph dies, i.e., something like the "Niagara Frontier Bills", playing some games in a new stadium about 45 minutes south of Toronto (ie., so that Buffalonians can see the team fairly easily as well) with perhaps several a year back in Buffalo. (That last part may not make economic sense, but a guy can dream.) While not ideal, I honestly wouldn't mind that--it would keep the team close, letting Buffalonians see them if they want (but it would suck for Rochesterians and other Central NYers like I used to be in the day), and let the team tap into a large new market more fully to make them more competitive in what is looking more and more unfortunately like the MLBization of the NFL, which I personally suspect will destroy the game's popularity much like it has done for baseball, but we'll see. Toronto is actually quite a wealthy city in addition to being a large one (4th largest or some such in North America I believe, although I'm not certain), so that would go a long ways to more than leveling the economic playing field for the Bills. I find it funny that some folks on this board mock the Bills for moving to T'to--that should be the last thing you all want.

That's what I was saying, too. Toronto is freakin HUGE. And I remember Magahee comments on his way out, and a move to TO just seems to make sense. A large city like that would probably help FA recruiting.

Hell, I'd sign there just to go to the Playdium every day.

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

Wilson has said he won't move the Bills while he's alive, but that's as far as he's gone or will go. The team will be sold to the highest bidder after he dies, IMO, and without a hometown discount. Unlike many Bills fans, I don't despise Ralph for doing so (although I wish he'd do more to keep them local as they are a HUGE part of WNY). He could easily have up and moved them years ago--I told him as much at training camp a few years ago and he just laughed and said "What am I going to do? Sit at my dining room table and count my money? Where's the fun in that?" He's a better guy than some Bills fans give him credit for being.

While there's hope a local billionaire (Tom Golisano, owner of Paychex and the Sabres has expressed an interest, for ex.), I suspect it will be Ted Rogers and friends in Toronto who get the Bills. As a Bills fan, I'd take Toronto over LA any day of the week. While it may be heresy to many of my fellow fans, I think the best we can hope for is a "regionalization" of the team after Ralph dies, i.e., something like the "Niagara Frontier Bills", playing some games in a new stadium about 45 minutes south of Toronto (ie., so that Buffalonians can see the team fairly easily as well) with perhaps several a year back in Buffalo. (That last part may not make economic sense, but a guy can dream.) While not ideal, I honestly wouldn't mind that--it would keep the team close, letting Buffalonians see them if they want (but it would suck for Rochesterians and other Central NYers like I used to be in the day), and let the team tap into a large new market more fully to make them more competitive in what is looking more and more unfortunately like the MLBization of the NFL, which I personally suspect will destroy the game's popularity much like it has done for baseball, but we'll see. Toronto is actually quite a wealthy city in addition to being a large one (4th largest or some such in North America I believe, although I'm not certain), so that would go a long ways to more than leveling the economic playing field for the Bills. I find it funny that some folks on this board mock the Bills for moving to T'to--that should be the last thing you all want.

I suppose the upside is that players would never have to call themselves "Buffalonians"...Toronto may get it on that strength alone

 

[FootballFanetic]

I suppose the upside is that players would never have to call themselves "Buffalonians"...Toronto may get it on that strength alone

Actually, quite a number of ex-Bills stay in Buffalo after their careers are over (Kelly, Tasker, Thurman, who just moved back, all come to mind, among the more high profile guys)--some guys who get traded away or cut, like Ruben Brown, also actually still live there in the offseason as well. Part of it is no doubt that the team is such a large part of the community it's pretty easy for these guys to get involved in it and develop connections there.

In addition, if you're raising kids, it's a wonderful place for them--more "Midwest" in feel than Northeast, which personally, I take as a plus (and before I get attacked on that, let me say that after growing up myself in WNY I'm raising my kids in the NYC area due to work and wife-related reasons and I've also lived in Boston, BTW, so I think I've got the baseline on which to judge, but admittedly, to each his/her own.)