O/T: Vrabel voted into Patriots HOF

[Actual Pats Fan]

I doubt the bolded part. Kraft hired him because he felt he was ready to be a HC in 2000. What Bill did during the 1999 season got him a lot attention slowing down both Drew Bledsoe and Peyton Manning.

Yes, but at the end of the day, Bob made the choice to take a chance on Bill.

That and the 1996 draft.

He was not a foundational piece. Richard Seymour was a foundational piece. That 2001 defense would've been pretty bad without him. Ted Washington in 2003 was a foundational piece as they don't run the 3-4 without him. Ditto with Wilfork.

Vrabel just happened to be on winning teams and a part of good defenses, but he was not the reason they were that good in 2003 and 2004.

I always liked Mike.

I would rank him maybe 200th on the all-time greatest Patriots list.

Maybe 300th.

 

[yukon cornelius]

The truth is that Kraft deferred to Belichick when all he had to do was exercise some common sense and do for Tom what he did for Drew, who then stunk and they got rid of him anyway.

And Kraft drove Parcells out of town.

thank god for that, this team would have never won a superbowl under parcells

 

[TheRainMaker]

He also went scorched earth on his old team after he left including stealing Curtis Martin.

This seems to be overblown. There's a couple reasons why he left. First, the Pats badly lowballed him at $2M per year because they were paranoid of his injury history. The second was that Martin felt he was more important to the team than Drew Bledsoe and wanted his money. Parcells just swooped in and made sure the Pats couldn't match their offer which they clearly did not plan on doing anyways.

thank god for that, this team would have never won a superbowl under parcells

Probably not, but they would've been a Super Bowl contender every year. They don't get past Denver in 1997 or 1998. And nobody saw the the Rams, Jags, Colts being as good as they were in 1999 with the Titans flying under the radar giving the Jags all 3 of their losses including the postseason. This is assuming Parcells bails after the 1999 season as he did with the Jets.

 

[Pape]

I always liked Mike.

I would rank him maybe 200th on the all-time greatest Patriots list.

Maybe 300th.

id like to see that list...

 

[Pape]

This seems to be overblown. There's a couple reasons why he left. First, the Pats badly lowballed him at $2M per year because they were paranoid of his injury history. The second was that Martin felt he was more important to the team than Drew Bledsoe and wanted his money. Parcells just swooped in and made sure the Pats couldn't match their offer which they clearly did not plan on doing anyways.

For some reason you are leaving out, was the poison pill in the contract offer... The Poison Pill, outside of the large signing bonus (for the time) was that he becomes a free agent after 1 year if the the Patriots matched the 6 year 36 million dollar jete offer...

It was reckless for the Pats to match that offer... Parcells was smart... he walked out of here with all the Patriot institutional knowledge, and used that to his advantage when Martin hit restricted free agency... Maybe it wouldn't have hurt so much if the promising rookie back Robert Edwards didn't blow out his knee

In hindsight, Martin was the big loser in the deal...

 

[TheRainMaker]

For some reason you are leaving out, was the poison pill in the contract offer... The Poison Pill, outside of the large signing bonus (for the time) was that he becomes a free agent after 1 year if the the Patriots matched the 6 year 36 million dollar jete offer...

Yes, that's true. I left it out because the Pats didn't think he was worth that anyways. I don't think they match it even if it didn't have the poison pill. They felt like it was a good deal to let an "injury prone" player walk for a 1st and 3rd round picks while saving money on the cap.

It was reckless for the Pats to match that offer... Parcells was smart... he walked out of here with all the Patriot institutional knowledge, and used that to his advantage when Martin hit restricted free agency... Maybe it wouldn't have hurt so much if the promising rookie back Robert Edwards didn't blow out his knee

While the Pats badly lowballed him, Martin was being pretty unreasonable thinking he should get paid QB money. They were just too far apart. For many years we were thinking the Jets "stole" Martin, but then we find out Martin was being unrealistic in his contract demands. Edwards was okay, but I watched the 1998 draft a while ago and the crew on ESPN mentioned the Pats were trying to get Fred Taylor.

In hindsight, Martin was the big loser in the deal...

In terms of personal success, he made the right decision as he had his best years with the Jets. The Pats O-lines were deteriorating each year while the Jets had a massive young O-line. And if Martin stayed, I think the ripple effect happens where it buys Carroll a couple more years and Bill shows up say 2001 or 2002.

On the flip side, I think Martin had mentioned he regrets leaving. Maybe Carroll is still gone after 1999.

 

[Ghost_Rush02]

parcells as a coach is overrated; he had his most success when he had great assistants....beyond that, he was pretty fear based and players, especially vets, tended to tune him out (no pun intended)....it's a big reason his career was dotted with short stints post giants; he was a great GM, overrated as a coach

the pats had two good drafts before he got here, and then grier took over in 96, and they continued to have great drafts.......i'd argue parcells had very little to do with player development once they were drafted, but that's me

but you lose all credibility when you say he did not sabotage the SB.......that's straight fact


Bob Kraft will always be the savior for this franchise.......Parcells was just a cog in the wheel......good GM, brought in some good players, .500 as a coach, threw a temper tantrum, quit on his franchise, acted like a petulant brat, held his breath and ran......screw him

Please prove the bold? And again it's more than just what he did here as a coach. Although he is in the NFL hall of fame as coach, which carries more weight then not being in the patriots hall of fame, also makes it even more weird that he is not in the patriots hall of fame. Also not only the patriots franchise, but the jets and the cowboys all had success under Parcells, Also didn't do too bad of a GM job for with the fins.

Again if you go back to that 01 roster you would see players Parcells drafted and coached. There is no way around that.

Bob Kraft saved the franchise by keeping it Foxboro but nobody was coming to the stadium until Parcells and him drafting Drew Bledsoe came onto the scene. Those are straight facts and a big reason why he should be in the hall of fame at patriots place.

 

[Ghost_Rush02]

I do agree that the Broncos choke against the Jags paved their way. The Patriots were not going to Denver and beating them.

Parcells spent the lead up to the SB much more focused on playing slap and tickle with the Jets instead of trying to win a championship. Whatever his beef with Kraft (and I believe there was merit to his beef), he should have had 100% respect for and dedication to his players. He did not. That is sabotage.

His ego, his future landing spot, and his hurt feelings were more important than winning the final game. That is sabotage.

Doesn't mean he is evil or a bad football mind. It just disqualifies him from the Patriots HOF. There are other opinions on this, of course, no matter how wrong they are.

His ego? Unlike the ego of the future hall of fame coach we have now letting the greatest QB get way too early? Also he didn't sabotage the SB, but i will not argue that point if that is how you feel, that's how you feel. The man got us there, where we hadn't been since the butt whopping the Bears gave us. Plus lets not forget Bledsoe completely suck'd in that SB too. That is not Parcells fault.

The Franchise was dead in the water until Parcells. Fans gripping about the situation between him and the Kraft's should not be the end all, be all. Seems very petty seeing what he was asking for, damn near every coach in the NFL now a days ask for the same thing.

Plus what great coach doesn't have a great staff with him?

 

[PP2]

Sorry, thought this thread was about Vrabel.

 

[Steve102]

Sorry, thought this thread was about Vrabel.

Same.

 

[Dingleberry]

His ego? Unlike the ego of the future hall of fame coach we have now letting the greatest QB get way too early? Also he didn't sabotage the SB, but i will not argue that point if that is how you feel, that's how you feel. The man got us there, where we hadn't been since the butt whopping the Bears gave us. Plus lets not forget Bledsoe completely suck'd in that SB too. That is not Parcells fault.

The Franchise was dead in the water until Parcells. Fans gripping about the situation between him and the Kraft's should not be the end all, be all. Seems very petty seeing what he was asking for, damn near every coach in the NFL now a days ask for the same thing.

Plus what great coach doesn't have a great staff with him?

Sure, Belichick has a tremendous ego. It doesn't really have anything to do with the Parcells' question.

I already said Parcells had a gripe with Kraft that may have been warranted. If he put everything into the SB then walked away, there is no discussion. However, it is irrefutable that he did not put everything into that game. He owed it to his players to give everything for the one game. THEN he can tell Kraft to **** off.

Had that happened, win or lose, I am all for the Pats HOF despite his .500 record here.

 

[Pape]

Yes, that's true. I left it out because the Pats didn't think he was worth that anyways. I don't think they match it even if it didn't have the poison pill. They felt like it was a good deal to let an "injury prone" player walk for a 1st and 3rd round picks while saving money on the cap.

While the Pats badly lowballed him, Martin was being pretty unreasonable thinking he should get paid QB money. They were just too far apart. For many years we were thinking the Jets "stole" Martin, but then we find out Martin was being unrealistic in his contract demands. Edwards was okay, but I watched the 1998 draft a while ago and the crew on ESPN mentioned the Pats were trying to get Fred Taylor.

In terms of personal success, he made the right decision as he had his best years with the Jets. The Pats O-lines were deteriorating each year while the Jets had a massive young O-line. And if Martin stayed, I think the ripple effect happens where it buys Carroll a couple more years and Bill shows up say 2001 or 2002.

On the flip side, I think Martin had mentioned he regrets leaving. Maybe Carroll is still gone after 1999.

6/21 was the offer... 6/36 from the jets, at the time, was an outsized contract...

Worth it? Sure, Yeah, he's a HoF RB... Made a lot of money, but in the end, never won anything... He could have been a HoF back with three rings by the time his career ended... Its a shame he left, but in the end our team evolved into a dynasty... Who knows what would have happened if he stayed... We coulda missed the Brady his...

 

[Ghost_Rush02]

Sure, Belichick has a tremendous ego. It doesn't really have anything to do with the Parcells' question.

I already said Parcells had a gripe with Kraft that may have been warranted. If he put everything into the SB then walked away, there is no discussion. However, it is irrefutable that he did not put everything into that game. He owed it to his players to give everything for the one game. THEN he can tell Kraft to **** off.

Had that happened, win or lose, I am all for the Pats HOF despite his .500 record here.

You brought up Parcells ego. We have a coach now who has an ego..so what does Parcells ego has anything to do with anything, everyone in sports has an ego, everyone in sports want the most out of their situation. The Krafts benefited from Parcells being here, and Parcells benefited from being here. He did what he was suppose to do for the team and the franchise. To date I have not seen any hard evidence from anyone showing Parcells screwing up the SB, and maybe, maybe his game plan wasnt a %100, still doesn't negate the fact his number one player, Drew Bledsoe stinking up the joint in the SB that didn't help either.

Seems like just hard feelings, plus in the grand scheme of things we ended up with 6 SBs. .500 record and yet took the team to a superbowl. .500 record but made the team watchable, .500 record and again made two other franchises into successful franchises and, one being the jets of all teams...

 

[Dingleberry]

You brought up Parcells ego. We have a coach now who has an ego..so what does Parcells ego has anything to do with anything, everyone in sports has an ego, everyone in sports want the most out of their situation. The Krafts benefited from Parcells being here, and Parcells benefited from being here. He did what he was suppose to do for the team and the franchise. To date I have not seen any hard evidence from anyone showing Parcells screwing up the SB, and maybe, maybe his game plan wasnt a %100, still doesn't negate the fact his number one player, Drew Bledsoe stinking up the joint in the SB that didn't help either.

Seems like just hard feelings, plus in the grand scheme of things we ended up with 6 SBs. .500 record and yet took the team to a superbowl. .500 record but made the team watchable, .500 record and again made two other franchises into successful franchises and, one being the jets of all teams...

No. I am not knocking him for having an ego. I didn't even imply that Parcells should be excluded because he has an ego.

I said he let his ego and hurt feelings come before the team and his players. I find that unacceptable.

Honestly, I agree with your other takes about him. The .500 record doesn't tell the story about what he meant to the franchise. Again, had he given every bit of effort to that last game, there would be no question in my mind.

His behavior leading up to the SB and immediately after sucked. And I say that as someone who thinks Kraft, not Parcells, was in the wrong about their spat.

 

[Noexcusesfornumber5]

If you have to question a person's loyalty to the team, they don't belong. That's where Parcells stands for the Patriots.

 

[Ghost of Ben Dreith]

I have nothing against Vrabel getting into Pat’s hall of fame…none…loved the guy. However….Julius Adams and Russ Francis were better players and should already be in.

Too many voters base their vote on the TEAM won a championship versus the quality of the player being voted on. I understand it, but it really is a shame how little many of the voters know about great players on non-championship teams. The GOAT is responsible for his induction. If he played in the 80’s, he would still be a very good player, but he would be a footnote In Patriots history. That is not disparaging a player I really like and respect, but he is riding the GOAT train ahead of more deserving players.

 

[Ivan]

Never.

If he gets in, Pete Carroll should get in, he had a better record.

Neither should get in. Parcells is HOF head coach, but not a Patriots HOF head coach, he wasn’t here long enough,. It’s like Randy Moss, HOF WR, but not a Patriots HOF WR.

 

[Ivan]

I thought Kraft showed class in his remarks about Vrabel. Vrabel trashed the Kraft’s on his way out the door to K.C. , good to see it’s in the past,

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

thank god for that, this team would have never won a superbowl under parcells

Maybe; but the Belichick succession seems logical if he stayed

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I have nothing against Vrabel getting into Pat’s hall of fame…none…loved the guy. However….Julius Adams and Russ Francis were better players and should already be in.

Too many voters base their vote on the TEAM won a championship versus the quality of the player being voted on. I understand it, but it really is a shame how little many of the voters know about great players on non-championship teams. The GOAT is responsible for his induction. If he played in the 80’s, he would still be a very good player, but he would be a footnote In Patriots history. That is not disparaging a player I really like and respect, but he is riding the GOAT train ahead of more deserving players.

The case of the Patriots goes deeper than the surface and is multifaceted.

The media universe has made its living for half a century on the myth that the Patriots sucked. Twenty-four other NFL teams actually sucked for decades at a time, in contrast to the Patriots.

Any individual Patriots loss from 1970-1992 was magnified and emphasized 400% while any individual win was qualified and treated as a rare, unusual, surprising unlikely occurrence.

As far as the rings, Dreith, Madden and Tatum are at best buffoons. If there is one single Super Bowl result which merits an asterisk it's SBXI.