NEW ARTICLE: New Patriots LB Judon on Tom Brady: “He intentionally grounds the ball every time”

[rochrist]

How dumb do you have to be to sign with a team and within weeks take a shot at one of their ex players who was idolized by your current team's fan base and who is arguably the greatest athlete in any sport ever?
Just goes to show you can take the player out of Baltimore, but you can't the Baltimore out of a player. Just a classless organization of whiny, excuse making crybababy losers. Legitimately one of the most unlikeable franchises in the NFL. Hope he works out better than the last high priced Raven Bill signed.

There might be something to that. If it had actually been a shot.

 

[Cam2HarryGOAT]

There might be something to that. If it had actually been a shot.

It's not really a big deal until you put into context. The whiny, excuse making culture he comes from. Tom Brady is not difficult to sack because he's great at getting rid of the ball quickly, or because of any of my or my teammates' shortcomings. Nope. I'm going to make excuses and imply it's because he's cheating/vending the rules. Again, stupid to say about a guy who is the most revered athlete in the city you just signed in, but it's a great reminder of the loser culture this guy comes from in Baltimore.

 

[luuked]

What's a realistic chance of completion? I mean, if your WR runs the wrong route on a timing pattern, you have absolutely no chance of completion.

In order to decide this properly, the refs need to be given each team's playbook before the game, they need to memorize the plays, and the signals, so they know when a WR broke off his route improperly rather than the QB throwing the ball away.

If you can't run the right routes given a look it is your own fault if you end up with a grounding call.

No matter how much some people try to predictably shift blame away from this QB, it was textbook grounding. And to adress some other folks, it doesn't matter one bit if it gets called rarely or not.

Finally lets not forget Brady could have easily gone with the running play that BoB gave him as well but stuck with the pass.

 

[luuked]

It's not really a big deal until you put into context. The whiny, excuse making culture he comes from. Tom Brady is not difficult to sack because he's great at getting rid of the ball quickly, or because of any of my or my teammates' shortcomings. Nope. I'm going to make excuses and imply it's because he's cheating/vending the rules. Again, stupid to say about a guy who is the most revered athlete in the city you just signed in, but it's a great reminder of the loser culture this guy comes from in Baltimore.

I feel like you are creating your own narrative for whatever reason. At no point does Judon imply any of the things you are saying.

He is pointing out that grounding -- being the judgment call that it is -- is often called with a huge benefit of doubt given to the QB. Sometimes the closest receiver is like 15 yards away, other times passes are clearly not catchable unless gravity would just disappear.

All of what he said is entirely understandable when you look at it from a DEs point of view.

 

[Biffins]

On a side note I have never understood the logic of why spiking the ball in order to stop the clock is not intentional grounding.

I thought it's only intentional grounding if you are under pressure. Otherwise it's just an incomplete pass.

So spiking the ball is an incomplete pass since QB is not under pressure.

 

[BTTA]

I feel like you are creating your own narrative for whatever reason. At no point does Judon imply any of the things you are saying.

He is pointing out that grounding -- being the judgment call that it is -- is often called with a huge benefit of doubt given to the QB. Sometimes the closest receiver is like 15 yards away, other times passes are clearly not catchable unless gravity would just disappear.

All of what he said is entirely understandable when you look at it from a DEs point of view.

As someone who played DE and OLB, I'll confirm this as my experience. There's nothing more frustrating than winning a rush (either beating an OL, or finding a gap) and being within arms reach of a QB, only to have the QB throw the ball away somewhere near a receiver, to avoid the sack and the penalty. It ALWAYS felt like I was being ripped off, because something I felt like I'd earned was taken away from me. This feeling is compounded when the DB's have the play covered so the entire defense played exceptionally well and got nothing more than an incompletion out of it.

Every defensive player I ever played with felt the same way. When they use language like "grounds the ball" it doesn't refer to the rules, it refers to the act of avoiding a sack with a toss at someone's feet or over their head and out of bounds. It starts in junior high school ball.

 

[upstater1]

If you can't run the right routes given a look it is your own fault if you end up with a grounding call.

No matter how much some people try to predictably shift blame away from this QB, it was textbook grounding. And to adress some other folks, it doesn't matter one bit if it gets called rarely or not.

Finally lets not forget Brady could have easily gone with the running play that BoB gave him as well but stuck with the pass.

Textbook grounding? That must be why the QB on the call who knows 1000x as much as you about it said, "That's never been called, never mind in the Super Bowl." So now you want refs throwing flags on blown routes. Crazy.

 

[luuked]

Textbook grounding? That must be why the QB on the call who knows 1000x as much as you about it said, "That's never been called, never mind in the Super Bowl." So now you want refs throwing flags on blown routes. Crazy.

It is not the refs job to guess or anticipate routes. They look at the outcome and not at what someone has drawn up.

I dont give a **** what any QB or coach says about it. Look up the rules, read them without any bias and you will realize it was textbook grounding. Unfortunately for you -- and the Pats in the SB -- it was a pretty clear, black and white situation in that specific case.

 

[1960Pats]

You would have won $100,000 LOL. Even 10 bucks for 10k would have been worth.

As for Judon. I'm sure all the Ravens are coached to think that way. No ref ever calls intentional grounding for when Brady throws the ball because he knows the boundaries of what's grounding. As long as the ball goes somewhere in the vicinity of a receiver that will never get called. Well, except in that one Superbowl.

It would have helped me drown my sorrows after that loss.

It's pretty obvious to me that the Ratbirds are taught to push the rules. Back in 2007 they committed penalty after penalty at the end of the game with the Pats. If not for a Wrecks Ryan TO call they may have gotten a win out of that strategy.

I also can't shake one of the most egregious non-calls ever in a Ratbirds game in Foxboro, I think during the playoffs. On 3rd down and a few Gronk had perfect position over the middle of the field but long before the ball arrived he had both of his arms wrapped up by the LB behind him. Gronk had no chance to catch the perfect pass.

 

[1960Pats]

As someone who played DE and OLB, I'll confirm this as my experience. There's nothing more frustrating than winning a rush (either beating an OL, or finding a gap) and being within arms reach of a QB, only to have the QB throw the ball away somewhere near a receiver, to avoid the sack and the penalty. It ALWAYS felt like I was being ripped off, because something I felt like I'd earned was taken away from me. This feeling is compounded when the DB's have the play covered so the entire defense played exceptionally well and got nothing more than an incompletion out of it.

Every defensive player I ever played with felt the same way. They use language like "grounds the ball" doesn't refer to the rules, it refers to the act of avoiding a sack with a toss at someone's feet or over their head and out of bounds. It starts in junior high school ball.

Back when the Pats were good and Marino's team wasn't, I use to marvel at the way he could get a ball off accurately even when a Pats player came in untouched. And Brady is better at it. Just ask Joey Bosa. I say hats off to any QB under pressure who can get rid of the ball that fast with accuracy.

 

[jmt57]

I thought it's only intentional grounding if you are under pressure. Otherwise it's just an incomplete pass.

So spiking the ball is an incomplete pass since QB is not under pressure.

Yes, that is correct. There are three parts to the rule, one of which is being under pressure.


The point I was attempting to make is that in that instance, the quarterback is literally performing the name of the penalty - intentionally grounding the ball - more so than in any other example. The end result is that 'this blatantly obvious type of intentional grounding is okay', but 'this other type of borderline intentional grounding is a penalty'. It seems to be counterintuitive.

In addition a sport is better off when referees are not asked to consider intent, which is very subjective. How is an official supposed to determine between a player waiting until the last possible second to throw the ball, or purposely throwing the ball away? How is the ref supposed to know whether or not the QB knew a defender was closing in on him from behind? How can he possibly take into account the difference between a receiver running one route, and the passer expecting him to run another? Exactly how far off does a pass need to be to be deemed uncatchable? What if the QB is playing with a sprained finger, and some passes are sailing on him?

 

[VJCPatriot]

Back when the Pats were good and Marino's team wasn't, I use to marvel at the way he could get a ball off accurately even when a Pats player came in untouched. And Brady is better at it. Just ask Joey Bosa. I say hats off to any QB under pressure who can get rid of the ball that fast with accuracy.

LOL. The difference is when Marino does it he's a genius. When Brady does it 'must be intentional grounding'.

Patriots hatred is a taught phenomenon. I'm sure it permeated that Ravens lockerroom. You're not taught to 'like' your rivals.

But in a way that's part of competition too so I'm not surprised. One example of this is James Harrison. He said that when he joined the Patriots he was ready to hate Brady. But after meeting the man in person came away with nothing but respect for him.

@5:40 mark

 

[Pats1971]

Does it count against the QB as an incomplete pass? It can't, right?

It actually does from a QB rating standpoint

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Textbook grounding? That must be why the QB on the call who knows 1000x as much as you about it said, "That's never been called, never mind in the Super Bowl." So now you want refs throwing flags on blown routes. Crazy.

How the hell does the referee know that Branch ran the wrong route? Because Branch or Belichick told him afterwards? Bottom line is Branch was at least 20 yards from where the ball landed. Brady got scared of Justin Tuck and threw it where no one was. And because he was in the pocket, it's considered grounding. The reason why it's not typically called in the super bowl is because no QB in the super bowl has had a worse intentional grounding before that (or after). That's how bad it was. It was basically free 9 points for the Giants who scored on the next drive.

 

[TinhWoodhead]

On a side note I have never understood the logic of why spiking the ball in order to stop the clock is not intentional grounding.

bc there is no pressure from the defense?

 

[Cam2HarryGOAT]

It would have helped me drown my sorrows after that loss.

It's pretty obvious to me that the Ratbirds are taught to push the rules. Back in 2007 they committed penalty after penalty at the end of the game with the Pats. If not for a Wrecks Ryan TO call they may have gotten a win out of that strategy.

I also can't shake one of the most egregious non-calls ever in a Ratbirds game in Foxboro, I think during the playoffs. On 3rd down and a few Gronk had perfect position over the middle of the field but long before the ball arrived he had both of his arms wrapped up by the LB behind him. Gronk had no chance to catch the perfect pass.

Not saying you are wrong, just that I don't know. Are you sure you aren't thinking of the "loss" against Carolina where something similar happened on what should have been the game winning drive?

 

[luuked]

Not saying you are wrong, just that I don't know. Are you sure you aren't thinking of the "loss" against Carolina where something similar happened on what should have been the game winning drive?

It was just a matter if time until that specific poster would start inventing things to be upset about.

Nothing like that ever happened against the Ravens with Gronk. It was on the last play at Carolina in 2013 during the "Ice up, Son" game.

 

[jmt57]

bc there is no pressure from the defense?

Yes, we agree, the rule states there must be pressure from the defense.


Forget about the text in the NFL rulebook definition of the penalty for a moment. My original comment was in regards to a literal dictionary definition of the words 'intentional' and 'grounding'. The most obvious, deliberate (intentional) incomplete pass (grounding) play from scrimmage is the play call that instructs you to just push the ball straight down near your feet, with zero chance of being complete.


On a side note: spiking the ball to stop the clock only came to be in the 1990s. Prior to that the ball had to be thrown past the line of scrimmage and out of bounds to stop the clock. If I recall correctly John Elway was the first player to use this tactic, and did often enough to give Denver an upper hand on the rest of the league for a little while. (I think he and the Broncos were the first to use the forward shuffle pass as well.

I would assume this tweak of the rules was one of many to give the offense a bit of an edge, to create more scoring and to create more dramatic game endings.

 

[rochrist]

It's not really a big deal until you put into context. The whiny, excuse making culture he comes from. Tom Brady is not difficult to sack because he's great at getting rid of the ball quickly, or because of any of my or my teammates' shortcomings. Nope. I'm going to make excuses and imply it's because he's cheating/vending the rules. Again, stupid to say about a guy who is the most revered athlete in the city you just signed in, but it's a great reminder of the loser culture this guy comes from in Baltimore.

Every time I get close he gets rid of the ball. Sounds smart to me. And it doesn't sound like an excuse from Juudon, he doesn't need any excuse. The Baltimore thing is vastly overblown.

 

[Wozzy]

He's going to be 44, it wasn't avocado ice cream.

It was really good blocking over the decades and being a really smart player.