My Blueprint for the Defense

[captain stone]

Words cannot adequately describe just how pissed-off I am that Nice Guy Joey Vellano not only
made the 53, but looks like he is going absolutely nowhere anytime soon.

How the feck does Bill get off keeping this useless stiff ahead of Kelly & Worthy, and why the feck
didn't he claim Devon Still after he was waived by Cincinatti (& subsequently signed to their PS)?

What gripping excitement it must be during practice 1-on-1s between Vellano & Ryan Wendy - the stoppable force vs the movable object.

 

[mayoclinic]

Words cannot adequately describe just how pissed-off I am that Nice Guy Joey Vellano not only
made the 53, but looks he is going absolutely nowhere anytime soon.

How the feck does Bill get off keeping this useless stiff ahead of Kelly & Worthy, and why the feck
didn't he claim Devon Still after he was waived by Cincinatti (& subsequently signed to their PS)?

What gripping excitement it must be during practice 1-on-1s between Vellano & Ryan Wendy - the stoppable force vs the movable object.

I share your mystification about both Wendell and Vellano. But I'm not sure that the 5th-7th DT is worth being pissed off about. Kelly is 33 and coming off an ACL. Worthy only had a few weeks to show he deserved a longer shot (I would have given it to him). BB has shown that he likes scrappy, high effort guys in the past - they may earn a spot just by their work ethic, for all we know. He has often shown that he will take a scrappy over-achiever over a more talented under-achiever.

I was incredibly pissed off in 2011 when the Pats cut Albert Haynesworth. I so wanted him to succeed, and the few flashes he showed were so tantalizing, it hurt to give up on that dream. I wrote a ridiculous tirade to Grid. But he just wasn't an effort guy, and it wasn't worth getting so upset about. In retrospect, BB was right - cutting the slacker sent a message to the team, which lost talent but more than made up for it with teamwork and effort. It's about building the best team, not the best collection of talent, remember? I don't understand Vellano's value, but I'm willing to accept that BB has a method to his madness.

One thing I've learned - a joint effort with Grid, though I can't speak for him - is that there are few opportunities at the back end of the roster that are so good that they are irreplaceable. Guys just get a shot, and they either stick or they don't. Armond Armstead is a good example of a guy for whom I had high hopes. There are tons of guys with talent who don't stick, for whatever reason, and they frequently bounce around. No one picked up Worthy on waivers, and I don't think Devon Still is going to set the world on fire. If not, there will still be plenty of other opportunities coming down the pipe.

 

[patsfaninpa]

I know the NFL is a ruthless business and GM's will pick anyone up who can help their team. But, Devon Still has a gravely ill 4yr old daughter. Allowing him to stay in Cincy and try to get his life together is probably the best thing. If you claimed him, I doubt he would even report.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...n-still-daughter-cincinnati-bengals/13254629/

 

[mayoclinic]

At this point, I'd like to see:

DT: Wilfork, Easley, Siliga, Quarles, Jones. Love that group. I'd like to see at least 2 of Vellano, Gaston and Worthy on the PS. Maybe one more DT sticks, depending on space.
DE: Jones, Ninkovich, Buchanan, Moore. Hightower also plays some DE. Very young, but love the upside of Moore and Buchanan.
LB: Mayo, Hightower, Collins, Fleming, +1. Love that group, but need one more.
S: McCourty, Harmon, Wilson, Ebner. I hope Chung goes when Browner comes back. Ryan and Arrington can also play S at times. I think Ebner has the tools to get some actual safety reps.
CB: Revis, Browner, Dennard, Ryan, Arrington, Butler. Our strongest position on defense. I think rumors of Browner's demise are greatly exaggerated.

The CB-needy Ravens cut LB Josh Bynes to make room for Derek Cox. I want Bynes (6'1" 240#) to fill that +1 LB spot. He's Dane Fletcher 2.0. Bynes, only 25, is a 4 year veteran who was a UDFA out of Auburn in 2011. He had a back injury (non-surgical), but played significantly in 2012 and 2013, including time as a starter, and excelled on special teams. He made the final tackle in the SB against the 49ers to prevent a possible game-winning kickoff return for a TD. Bynes lost out in a numbers battle, but the Ravens were reportedly very high on him, and hope to re-sign him. I'd love nothing better than to snatch him away from them on waivers.

Some background: 3 year starter and team captain on Auburn's 2011 NC team. High character, high motor guy. Did lots of charity work while with the Ravens. Reportedly a very hard worker, one of the first in and the last to leave. Athletically limited, but very smart, and plays faster than his 4.80 timed speed. Good STer. Has solid zone coverage ability, and some ability to match up with TEs and RBs.

I'd be thrilled with a LB group of Mayo, Collins, Hightower, Fleming and Bynes. That would be a really solid group, IMO. I think Bynes is exactly the kind of guy we've been missing. Max Bullough (UDFA cut by Houston) is somewhat similar, but Bynes has experience and has proven himself as a solid rotational player.

Keeping my fingers crossed that he lasts on waivers until the Pats, and that BB pulls the trigger.

 

[mayoclinic]

The Pats apparently had former NO 3rd round pick DE/OLB Martez Wilson in for a look, along with several other players:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-...rs?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Wilson had great measurables (4.42 40, 7.04 3C, 36" BJ) coming out in 2011, but never performed at a consistent level. He never lived up to expectations in New Orleans. Dallas signed him to a 2 year deal last November, and cut him earlier this pre-season. I doubt there's anything there, but he does have intriguing size and athleticism. The Pats showed interest in him prior to the 2011 draft.

 

[mayoclinic]

Doug Kyed on the rebuilding of the Pats' defense:

http://nesn.com/2014/09/patriots-defense-finally-ready-to-be-elite-after-years-of-rebuilding/

Of note:

The Patriots also showed a change in approach when they drafted Jamie Collins in the second round of the 2013 NFL draft. The Patriots revolutionized NFL offenses by aligning two athletic tight ends, but they failed to adapt on defense, trotting out lumbering, oversized linebackers who couldn’t cover the hybrid pass-catchers. The Patriots could have succumbed to popular opinion by using Collins as a pass rusher, where he shined at Southern Miss, but he’s more valuable on this defense in coverage.

The Patriots now boast a smart, young defense that can easily line up in three- and four-man fronts as well as multiple sub packages. Revis’ ability to cover any top receiver is key to the secondary’s success, but Jones is nearly as important to the defense. His ability to line up at outside linebacker, defensive end or defensive tackle gives the Patriots the versatility to adapt to any opposing offense. Jones might line up at outside linebacker, allowing a bigger defensive lineman to play defensive end, against a team like the Jets, who will look to pound the ball on offense. Against a pass-heavy team like the Broncos, Jones can play defensive end, allowing the team to put more pressure on the quarterback.

I agree. BB's use of Jones standing up adds yet another dimension to his versatility. There are few players who can effective play from the end, inside, or standing up. I think that we'll see more and more of those kind of players in the future. Shawn Oakman and Dante Fowler are two guys at the college level who have that ability; Oakman played all 3 roles in Baylor's dismantling of SMU last weekend.

Dominique Easley is the third guy who could really add another dimension in terms of flexibility. If he develops, the possibilities with Jones, Easley and Collins plus a stud secondary are pretty wild.

 

[captain stone]

I know the NFL is a ruthless business and GM's will pick anyone up who can help their team. But, Devon Still has a gravely ill 4yr old daughter. Allowing him to stay in Cincy and try to get his life together is probably the best thing. If you claimed him, I doubt he would even report.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...n-still-daughter-cincinnati-bengals/13254629/

I knew about his daughter's illness; very sad, and if the league made a wink-wink agreement to leave
Still unclaimed so that he could remain in Cincy where she can receive treatment at their Children's
Hospital, then I can dig that. If not, then there are good hospitals in New England too...

 

[captain stone]

The Pats apparently had former NO 3rd round pick DE/OLB Martez Wilson in for a look, along with several other players:

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4767375/patriots-work-out-former-colts-te-saunders?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Wilson had great measurables (4.42 40, 7.04 3C, 36" BJ) coming out in 2011, but never performed at a consistent level. He never lived up to expectations in New Orleans. Dallas signed him to a 2 year deal last November, and cut him earlier this pre-season. I doubt there's anything there, but he does have intriguing size and athleticism. The Pats showed interest in him prior to the 2011 draft.

Now that Darius Fleming has made the 53, I don't see the fit here with Wilson as I might have had
earlier. We're still in desperate need of sideline-to-sideline LBs, however, and a legit backup ILB.

 

[mayoclinic]

I'm curious. What is the difference between a 5-2 and a one gapping 3-4? Your example above looks not dissimilar to the way they've been lining up in pre-season.

From another thread:

I'd be stunned if BB went to a pure Bum Philips-style 1-gap. Even with a 4-3, he is more often mixing in 2-gap principles, as those are the fundamentals that he teaches for stopping the run. I would expect to see a similarly hybridized mixed gapping 3-4/5-2 and 4-3 defenses used, where personnel changes do not necessarily correlate to changes in the front - illustrating a bit of a false dichotomy between 3-4 OLBs and 5-2/4-3 DEs.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england.../threads/defensive-alignments.1111675/page-2

Wish I could have written that.

 

[manxman2601]

From another thread:



http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/defensive-alignments.1111675/page-2

Wish I could have written that.

Still doesn't really explain the difference between 3-4 and 5-2. To be honest, it doesn't matter that much. How the team plays defense isn't predicated on where a player lines up but upon what his responsibilities are.

 

[patsfaninpa]

In most college 5-2's back in the day, the Oklahoma defense. The DE's line up right on the LOS. They're job was to take the qb on option plays. Played outside the last blockers shoulder. Hard to get outside of them. Against an I-Formation team it was to string out sweeps and toss plays. Set that edge. Harder to get back into coverage if you're lining up on the los. That's why pro teams haven't done it. It's a run-stopping defense.

 

[manxman2601]

Decided to look at the wikipedia page for the 5-2 and noticed this:

The 5-2 Oklahoma, with defensive ends given the ability to drop back into pass coverage,[12] is indistinguishable from the pro 3-4 defense. It should not come as a surprise then that coaches from Oklahoma (Chuck Fairbanks) and Oklahoma State (Bum Phillips) were among the first to introduce the 3-4 into the NFL.[13]

That's pretty much what I thought. The difference only really seems to be whether the ends are aligned on or just off the LOS and whether they are in a 2 or 3 point stance. Further, in the 5-2 Oklahoma. the two outer DTs line up in the 5-tech. And it should be noted that the 5-2 Oklahoma was the direct predecessor to the 3-4 Fairbanks-Bullough.

Info from this good article on the 3-4

http://strongfootballcoach.com/defe...defense/popularity-3-4-defense-whats-old-new/

I thought this was appropriate:

Moving Forward: The 3-4’s Future

I think by understanding the 3-4 defense’s influences and developments over time, you can get a better grasp that the drive towards the 3-4 today is more of one based on personnel and flexibility than actual formations. Most of the time when Alabama lines up, for example, the only way you can tell that the Tide is a 3-4 team is by looking at the program. As teams continue to focus on increasing the flexibility of their defenses and defenders, the 3-4 defense will continue to rise in popularity.

 

[mayoclinic]

I would recommend revisiting some of the earlier 5-2 and multiple front discussion, starting with posts #918 and 921, and the referenced articles. Jens Bremel's defensive evolution series (post #922) is really good reading. I don't think it's worth repeating the same stuff over again.

I agree very strongly with Manx's statement a few posts above: "How the team plays defense isn't predicated on where a player lines up but upon what his responsibilities are." I think that there will be multiple fronts and formations, but the responsibilities will be what really matters.

 

[manxman2601]

I would recommend revisiting some of the earlier 5-2 and multiple front discussion, starting with posts #918 and 921, and the referenced articles. Jens Bremel's defensive evolution series (post #922) is really good reading. I don't think it's worth repeating the same stuff over again.

I agree very strongly with Manx's statement a few posts above: "How the team plays defense isn't predicated on where a player lines up but upon what his responsibilities are." I think that there will be multiple fronts and formations, but the responsibilities will be what really matters.

Having gone back and read the posts and articles, I'd say the following:

1. I like the idea of Siliga or Wilfork playing the 5-tech DE a la Red Bryant. Makes more sense than putting someone like Chris Jones or Vellano on the line. However, I would align them to the strongside with Nink/Hightower alongside.

2. Love the idea of two coverage safeties and that fits nicely with how they've looked at Arrington and Ryan in that position. However, that doesn't really fit with carrying five safeties in addition to Ryan and Arrington. Where I would disagree with something you said in one of those posts though is that the 5-2 referenced in the Denver 5-2 post doesn't really fit a OLB/S hybrid like Shazier or KPL who would be there to offer better run support. One would be better looking for CB/S hybrids.

3. However, I also like the idea of a 'monster' safety that comes up into the box. The question there is what kind of value you place on a role that probably has limited use in a passing league. Someone like Shaq Thompson would be great but would that mean spending too much draft capital on limited positional value?

4. I think I almost prefer Hightower over Ninkovich in these scenarios because Hightower is better for the MLB position. The main reason I say that is because I want Jamie Collins rushing the passer as more than just an occasional inside blitzer and I like the idea of him interchanging with Hightower who is lined up as LDE/SLB. Offers better flexibility than having Nink over there.

5. The combination of run defines (Siliga or Wilfork and Nink or Hightower) on one side and pass rush (Easley and Jones) on the other is very appealing especially with Jamie Collins adding potential pass rush onto the 'run defense' side as discussed above is very appealing in terms of reinforcing your strengths (doubling down as it were).

5-2 or 4-3 is moot but I like them both over the 4-3 which has always seemed limited to me.

 

[mayoclinic]

5-2 or 4-3 is moot but I like them both over the 4-3 which has always seemed limited to me.

I assume you're first "4-3" in the sentence above is a typo, and meant to read "3-4".

I agree with you in terms of a classic 4-3 over, as in the old Tampa 2 defenses. I like the 4-3 Under much more, especially as part of a multi-front hybrid defense where the same personnel can line up in different formations, as discussed previously.

 

[captain stone]

Having gone back and read the posts and articles, I'd say the following:

1. I like the idea of Siliga or Wilfork playing the 5-tech DE a la Red Bryant. Makes more sense than putting someone like Chris Jones or Vellano on the line. However, I would align them to the strongside with Nink/Hightower alongside...

I really agree with this one. There is no way that Chris Jones or especially Vellano should ever play as
an end-of-line defender without someone like Chandler or Nink very close to the LOS.

 

[mayoclinic]

Nice read by Doug Kyed on Chandler Jones' versatility:

Jones can line up nearly anywhere along a defensive front, from outside linebacker to defensive tackle, and there aren’t many players in the league quite like him. In a 3-4 “regular” defense, Jones can essentially line up in the same position as the Indianapolis Colts’ Robert Mathis or the Houston Texans’ J.J. Watt, though you won’t see Mathis regularly playing defensive tackle or Watt standing up on the edge.

“That definitely gives you something you can do there,” Patriots head coach Bill Belichick said Friday of Jones’ versatility. “Some of that is within a game and some of that is maybe from week to week depending on what you’re facing. One week maybe it’s this and the next week maybe it’s something a little bit different. You can do some of that within the game of moving around. Sometimes it depends on a player, depends on the team you’re playing. Sometimes moving a guy around in a lot of different spots is not that easy during the game and can be a little bit confusing — not even so much for him as the other guys. Like, ‘Who are you? Are you the end? Are you the Will? Are you Sam?’ Because they want to know who they’re working with too. “You could do it, you just have to do what you can do. If it’s too much then sometimes it can slow you down. But definitely as you match up against different offensive teams and systems throughout the course of the year, a player like Chandler could have a variety of different roles depending on what you had to defend.”

http://nesn.com/2014/09/chandler-jones-versatility-gives-patriots-defense-valuable-flexibility/

The Jones-Collins-Easley era starts on Sunday. 3 really unusual and diverse weapons.

 

[captain stone]

Still prefer Chandler J as a 4-3 RDE, but can see him as an off-line edge defender during some running downs and as an interior penetrator during some passing downs; coverage in space and facing possible double-teams inside are really not his strengths, and would give him less snaps doing what he does best.

 

[mayoclinic]

Still prefer Chandler J as a 4-3 RDE, but can see him as an off-line edge defender during some running downs and as an interior penetrator during some passing downs; coverage in space and facing possible double-teams inside are really not his strengths, and would give him less snaps doing what he does best.

I too prefer Jones playing as a RDE in a 4 (or 5) man front, but I think that developing his versatility and ability to be effective standing up doesn't hurt. It allows the Pats to play 3-4, 2-4, 2-5 and ameboid fronts more effectively, and at the very least makes other teams have to game plan for Jones playing more roles. But I agree that his bread and butter is playing with his hand in the dirt as an edge rusher.

 

[mayoclinic]

Sealver Siliga on Dominique Easley:

“I understand why they drafted him in the first round,” defensive lineman Sealver Siliga said. “He’s explosive off the ball. There’s a lot of things you can’t teach. You can’t teach his first step off the ball. . . . Definitely, you’ll see what I mean when we play on Sunday.

“He’s explosive off the ball, and you can’t teach that. You either have it or you don’t. That’s something he’s blessed with.”

Siliga gushed over Easley despite limited reps alongside the rookie.

Easley debuted at practice Aug. 11, but Siliga didn’t meet him on the field until Aug. 25 due to a broken hand. It only took two weeks for Siliga to understand what Easley could bring to the defense, and that’s all the more impressive given the fact that linemen don’t go all out during practice.

When presented with Siliga’s compliment, Easley simply said, “I just try to put myself in situations to help out the team in every which way I can. That’s about it. That’s my goal.”

http://bostonherald.com/sports/patr.../patriots_notebook_d_line_better_with_easley

I know it's early, and we didn't get to see him at all in the pre-season. But I've felt all along that this kid is special, and it's hard not to get excited about what he could add to a defense that has Chandler Jones, Jamie Collins, Vince Wilfork, and Darrelle Revis.