My biggest takeaway from the Ravens game....

[Huckleberry1]

My biggest takeaways were how well they executed as a team on both offense and defense, and that they won the fistfight on both sides of the ball and were the more physical team, something the Ravens have got to be hating. I think the same thing will happen against Denver as the Patriots will win the fistfights and be able to run the ball effectively, and that will ultimately open up the passing game.

 

[Kontradiction]

Second picture) There was a receiver running down the middle of the field that was open for a big gain.

The only way to complete that pass is to put a lot of velocity on the ball. If he does that, the corner, who is in trail technique, can make a play on the ball. If he puts air under it, the safety can peel off and make a play on the ball. That receiver is not as open as you think.

 

[Tuck]

Trust me, as skeptical as I was about the defense I was thrilled to see them have such a great game (with solid tackling), but my greatest reassurance was with the offense and how effective they looked.

Last year the Pats looked like world beaters for 10 weeks. I think some even may have compared them to the 2007 team, but the wheels came off late in the easons with injuries to Edelman and Amendola. After all having the mentality of "there is no defense that can stop us" it quickly changed to "how are we going to score" as the offense became a shell of itself.

With us facing injuries again with Gronk and Amendola I couldn't help but think "oh no, is this going to happen again?" Sure, victories over SF and NYJ didn't offer much of a test and/or reassurance that things were ok, so here come the Ravens. What will our offense do to their defense?

It wasn't just that they scored points and racked up yards they looked good doing it. I didn't get the sense that any of their plays were lucky. If anything, they could have executed better if Jules hung onto the ball (even though he is prone to a drop each game even this was more than usual for him).

Bottom line, it was good to see the Pats offense looking like their dominant selves. While Gronk is a huge loss, the supporting cast looks to be stepping up more than the supporting cast did last year. Blount being effective running the ball only helps matters, too.

Looks like Vegas agrees with you.

The Patriots' Super Bowl odds on Bovada are now better than they were before Gronk's injury.

Just before Gronk's injury:
Pats +240
Dallas +400

Shortly after Gronk was IR'd:
Pats +275
Dallas +325

After the Baltimore win:
Pats +225
Dallas +500

 

[Nunchucks]

The only way to complete that pass is to put a lot of velocity on the ball. If he does that, the corner, who is in trail technique, can make a play on the ball. If he puts air under it, the safety can peel off and make a play on the ball. That receiver is not as open as you think.

First, the safety would have to stop moving in the other direction, then switch directions, and finally locate the ball...there is a lot of space out there on the right side of the field. It is okay. He missed it. Not a huge deal.

 

[Kontradiction]

First, the safety would have to stop moving in the other direction, then switch directions, and finally locate the ball...there is a lot of space out there on the right side of the field. It is okay. He missed it. Not a huge deal.

Yeah it's not a certainty that it would have happened but the safety theoretically could have been in the position to make a play on the ball. NFL safeties make those plays all the time. Tom wouldn't have put air under the ball for that reason and it would have been a throw with more velocity on it. Kind of like the ones he used to hit down the seam with Moss.

 

[Tony2046]

@KontradictioN , @aluminum seats

Con't

9. JE is wide open but Sluggs bats the ball.


10. This is an interesting play to Edelman. Notice Hogan. Notice Weddle. Incompletion but I think this was one of the plays that set up the 4th Qtr Hogan TD.



11. JE is wide open. Brady only looks center then right. Completion.



12. JE Wide open. Completion for a first down.



13. Edelman went into motion. No one followed so zone coverage. JE open on the left. First down along with a sweet two feet tap at the sideline.



14. Short pass to the left. Incomplete. LB moves towards Edelman. Low throw but considered a drop. Tough catch. But was open (slightly). No one else was.



15a. Last Edelman play at the end of the game. Pretty cool setup so I'll post three screenshots.

Edelman goes into motion.



15b. Edelman takes two quick steps forward then cuts right and behind Hogans route. The defender is forced to run over the top of Hogan's route.



15c. 21 had man coverage but was forced around Hogan's route. OLB 33 recognized the route but a bit late. Edelman makes the catch + 8 yards + stays in bounds. (In bounds didn't matter because of the two minute warning but he did anyways.)

 

[aluminum seats]

It isn't a silly suggestion at all. Consistently locking onto reads or receivers who aren't open instead of other receivers who are is #1 on the list of things an NFL quarterback should not do. It results in costly INT's. If that's the case, Brady should be gone. Luckily for us, it isn't and that's been proven to you here in this thread by me, the pics above, and the link I provided to you where Belichick also breaks down a couple of big plays from the game film. Further, Brady proves it himself by his numbers. But you may be right that the conversation has reached a productive end. Instead of digging your heels in, you may want to reexamine your original stance on the topic.

Of course it's silly. Brady can have an issue that warrants discussion without saying he should be traded. You're embarrassing yourself by pushing that angle.

Brady targeting Edelman a bit much certainly hasn't been disproven by anything here, although you may wish saying it makes it true. Several of the incompletions in the pics indicate other receivers open.

The bizarre digging of the heels here is being done by you, and they're pretty deep in the ground by now.

 

[Tony2046]

You're a maniac! Got to go but will check these out later...(although, disagree right away on #1! Incomplete to Edelman and there's an open receiver in the middle of the field at the 26.)

This will be a fun discussion.

That guy was open after Brady committed to throwing. And I think this was a matchup decision. Edelman went in motion and the defender followed so man to man. They liked that matchup.

 

[Tony2046]

If you have access to the All-22, are you seeing anything that backs the claim of aluminum seats? Are there any plays you see in which Brady is consistently locking onto Edelman while other receivers are open?

I don't think it's a case of Brady locking onto Edelman although there were a couple of plays in which Brady only looked in Edelman's direction.

I do think they use Edelman to set up other receivers and to analyze the ravens reactions. For example if you look at pic 10 it looks a lot like the Hogan TD. Weddle in pic 10 bit on JE's route and he bit enough during the Hogan TD.

 

[Kontradiction]

@KontradictioN , @aluminum seats

Con't

9. JE is wide open but Sluggs bats the ball.


10. This is an interesting play to Edelman. Notice Hogan. Notice Weddle. Incompletion but I think this was one of the plays that set up the 4th Qtr Hogan TD.



11. JE is wide open. Brady only looks center then right. Completion.



12. JE Wide open. Completion for a first down.



13. Edelman went into motion. No one followed so zone coverage. JE open on the left. First down along with a sweet two feet tap at the sideline.



14. Short pass to the left. Incomplete. LB moves towards Edelman. Low throw but considered a drop. Tough catch. But was open (slightly). No one else was.



15a. Last Edelman play at the end of the game. Pretty cool setup so I'll post three screenshots.

Edelman goes into motion.



15b. Edelman takes two quick steps forward then cuts right and behind Hogans route. The defender is forced to run over the top of Hogan's route.



15c. 21 had man coverage but was forced around Hogan's route. OLB 33 recognized the route but a bit late. Edelman makes the catch + 8 yards + stays in bounds. (In bounds didn't matter because of the two minute warning but he did anyways.)

Thank you, sir, for helping confirm what I originally thought.

Of course it's silly. Brady can have an issue that warrants discussion without saying he should be traded.

There is no issue, though. I've made this clear from the beginning. Brady, like other QB's, may miss open guys from time to time but it's not the issue that you originally made it out to be. The shots posted by Tony, my examples, and the link I provided to you where Belichick breaks down the film should make that abundantly clear to you. Why you're digging your heels in here instead of taking a minute to reevaluate things is beyond me.

You're embarrassing yourself by pushing that angle.

What angle am I pushing? A quarterback's responsibility is to find the open man. If he locks in on a guy pre-snap who is not open instead of other guys who are open, which is your contention, then Brady is, by definition, not upholding his primary responsibility as a quarterback and, as such, should be subject to trade discussions. As I said, though, he is not doing that. And I never made that assertion. I simply debated that assertion.

Brady targeting Edelman a bit much certainly hasn't been disproven by anything here, although you may wish saying it makes it true. Several of the incompletions in the pics indicate other receivers open.

It's been disproven in plenty of ways. See above. Now, again, if you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it. Quarter, time, and down and distance and we can find it ourselves.

The bizarre digging of the heels here is being done by you, and they're pretty deep in the ground by now.

I'm not digging my heels in at all. I've been proven correct and am still waiting for some sort of evidence to support your original post on the topic that Brady is consistently "locking onto" Edelman instead of other open receivers.

 

[Kontradiction]

I don't think it's a case of Brady locking onto Edelman although there were a couple of plays in which Brady only looked in Edelman's direction.

I do think they use Edelman to set up other receivers and to analyze the ravens reactions. For example if you look at pic 10 it looks a lot like the Hogan TD. Weddle in pic 10 bit on JE's route and he bit enough during the Hogan TD.

Yes, it happens from time to time. Nobody will deny that. The point of contention is that it's happening consistently (i.e. "locking onto" Edelman).

 

[Tony2046]

First picture)Another receiver was open on a short crossing pattern.
Second picture) There was a receiver running down the middle of the field that was open for a big gain.

on five, I think Brady was being tackled or just got out of a tackle
The others are fine.

On the first picture that guy didn't get open until after Brady had committed to throw the ball. So he went with the Edelman matchup which was a linebacker. Edelman couldn't get out of his cut fast enough to get to the ball. The linebacker had great coverage on that play. Credit to the lb.

On the second picture you're correct. Brady was looking to throw it to Mitchell but the pocket collapsed too quickly. Brady scrambled and basically threw it away in Edelman's direction.

Disclaimer. These are my novice thoughts.

 

[Tony2046]

Yes, it happens from time to time. Nobody will deny that. The point of contention is that it's happening consistently (i.e. "locking onto" Edelman).

Edelman is not always his first read. That's clear. Edelman gets open quicker more often than any of the other receivers. That's clear as well.

So my novice mind wants to know or would love to know if Edelman is being used to set up other receivers later in the game by forcing the opposing defense to adjust to him just as we hear you have to have a running game to set up the pass? I think the answer is yes.

 

[mikey m]

Thank you, sir, for helping confirm what I originally thought.



There is no issue, though. I've made this clear from the beginning. Brady, like other QB's, may miss open guys from time to time but it's not the issue that you originally made it out to be. The shots posted by Tony, my examples, and the link I provided to you where Belichick breaks down the film should make that abundantly clear to you. Why you're digging your heels in here instead of taking a minute to reevaluate things is beyond me.



What angle am I pushing? A quarterback's responsibility is to find the open man. If he locks in on a guy pre-snap who is not open instead of other guys who are open, which is your contention, then Brady is, by definition, not upholding his primary responsibility as a quarterback and, as such, should be subject to trade discussions. As I said, though, he is not doing that. And I never made that assertion. I simply debated that assertion.



It's been disproven in plenty of ways. See above. Now, again, if you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it. Quarter, time, and down and distance and we can find it ourselves.



I'm not digging my heels in at all. I've been proven correct and am still waiting for some sort of evidence to support your original post on the topic that Brady is consistently "locking onto" Edelman instead of other open receivers.

I'm pretty sure the contention is that TB does this maybe 3 times per game, not every play. Suggesting that this would warrant a trade discussion is, well..you should probably just stop suggesting it

 

[chasa]

It's a fair question and I've a similar thought, but I don't think that's the case.

the video on hogans long td says otherwise. the safety initially went to cover 11, which left the center of the field open for 15.

 

[Huckleberry1]

He's completing almost 70% of his passes, has a 22/2 TD to Int. Ratio, has the highest QB rating and they are 8-1 since his return , why are people upset about targeting a player as good as Edelman?

 

[aluminum seats]

I've been proven correct

Do you have a job or a wife? I'd be fascinated to know how your "I've been proven correct" line works in other circumstances where you definitely haven't been proven correct but say it anyway.

In several pics here (which are, of course, not always even that helpful, as they're by definitions snapshots in time that change instantly. It looked like Russell Wilson was all clear on that pass....oops.)

Brady famously said his favorite receiver is the open one. Brady is great. At times, Brady locks onto one receiver too much. In the Ravens game, Edelman was targeted 15 times, more than White, Mitchell, Bennett, Lewis and Blount combined. Passes to Edelman were completed less than half the time, while the rest of the team had 3 incompletions combined. At that rate of targeting, Edelman would obliterate the record for most targets in a season. Edelman is 30 and still not 100% from his surgery. He is an important part of the Patriots' chances and for that reason alone shouldn't be targeted as much as he has.

I'm sure we could produce several pictures of completions to other receivers (the Bennett TD comes to mind) where they weren't wide open, but Brady made the throw and completion. Would you look at those pictures and say, "nah, go to Edelman again." You seem to want to justify every pass to Edelman as it is. Maybe Edelman's targets should be doubled. Let's murder him.

It may be, as @Tony2046 suggests, that the excessive targeting is intentional, to lay groundwork for later. Perhaps. But even if that's the rationale, the lack of efficiency for those drives and the wear and tear on Edelman being targeted a historic number of times, is likely not worth it.

I'm sure you will respond by saying "I have been proven correct. Also, I am seven feet tall." or some such nonsense, but I'm done.

 

[Kontradiction]

I'm pretty sure the contention is that TB does this maybe 3 times per game, not every play. Suggesting that this would warrant a trade discussion is, well..you should probably just stop suggesting it

No. The claim is that he's "locking onto" Edelman which denotes that he's throwing the ball at Edelman while other receivers are open. The poster even went so far as to call it an "issue" in post #47. My rebuttal is that Brady is not locking onto Edelman and Edelman often gets the ball because he is the first one to break open. Further, who is advocating a trade discussion? That's a straw man. I never advocated a trade because I never made the claim that Brady is locking onto Edelman in favor of other receivers. If he was, that is certainly an issue (I agree there) and would warrant looking into the future.

 

[mikey m]

No. The claim is that he's "locking onto" Edelman which denotes that he's throwing the ball at Edelman while other receivers are open. The poster even went so far as to call it an "issue" in post #47. My rebuttal is that Brady is not locking onto Edelman and Edelman often gets the ball because he is the first one to break open. Further, who is advocating a trade discussion? That's a straw man. I never advocated a trade because I never made the claim that Brady is locking onto Edelman in favor of other receivers. If he was, that is certainly an issue (I agree there) and would warrant looking into the future.

You said his claim, if true would warrant trade discussion. It wouldn't.

I'm not going to address anything else because we're living on different planets.

 

[mikey m]

He's completing almost 70% of his passes, has a 22/2 TD to Int. Ratio, has the highest QB rating and they are 8-1 since his return , why are people upset about targeting a player as good as Edelman?

TB is the goat. No other qb comes close to his consistent greatness on the field (or off for that matter). Some of just think that the one minor flaw is that he has a small bit of extra faith in edelman (understandably, he has earned it) that could be spread to the newer guys who are proving themselves. We could be wrong obviously, perhaps if Bennet, Hogan and Mitchell were trusted/asked to do more, it would be less effective than getting Jules 10-15 targets per game and letting that soften up the D on those guys.