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Mount Cody

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This would seem an ok first down and short yardage package but it leaves you with two guys who you would be trying to get off the field for passing situations and would be a match up nightmare.

The Pats pull Wilfork off the field because they go with their Nickel package which calls for two DTs on the field instead of the base 3 man line. For the most part, the Pats have always taken Wilfork AND Warren off the field or Wilfork/Seymour.

I think people are taking to much stock into the Vince at end stuff last year. To me that was done with the idea of neutrilizing a specific tackle that was causing problems against our smaller RE. If we get a RE who has the proper size for the 5 technique this would not be needed. And would seem like a better plan than playing two NT one of whom you have to draft anyway.



For me MT Cody is intriguing but because of Vince I would not use a first on him it would be hard to pass up on him if he was there in the second because he seems like the perfect NT.

Wilfork isn't guaranteed to be here yet. Once he is, then I agree with you.

If in the second RD we have found a pass rusher and a RB than fine but if we use one of those top four picks on WRs, TE, DBs than I think we have bigger needs than NT.

RB isn't as big of an issue as the O-line. The Pats need a guard and a center.
 
Makes sense but that really isn't the question. If you were faced with a DL of Warren/Cody/Wilfork, what would you do? Exactly what the Pats did when facing the Vikings...spread the field to wear them out and/or get them off the field in sub packages. So while that front looks formidable, it is way too easy to counter them on offense.
Perhaps. It may be harder to do that against NE's 3-4 then it was against Minnesota's 4-3.

Let's posit Cody as a draftee for NE, in this hypothetical game against the offense you describe trying to wear down NE's D-line, what counters does BB have?

First: He's already got four lighter players on the field at Linebacker, big enough to play the run, but more capable of dealing with a passing attack.

Second: Let's assume team X comes out in a four-wide, hurry-up. BB shifts on the fly to a 4-2 big nickel. Two OLB/DE types on the edge, Warren and Pryor rotating inside with Wilfork and Wright. Mayo and Guyton at LB, and add Chung as the next best coverage Safety after Meriweather roaming around in his college rover role. It's what NE already does against such passing attacks.

New England was able to pass all day on Minnesota because what the Vikings did on defense was 'what they do.' Teams looking to do that to NE have to hope the Pats are coping with enough injuries to reduce BB's traditional flexibility. BB beat Miami by using Wright inside at NT and letting the stronger 6'2" Vince Wilfork win the leverage battle with 6'7" Jake Long. It's what BB does, he builds his team to have that flexibility. I'm wondering if BB drafting short & stout Myron Pryor wasn't a trial run to see about creating more leverage mismatches against the increasing number of taller OTs in the NFL? He's clearly doing that on the O-line with Orhnberger, Wendell, and Bussey.

I don't expect BB to draft Cody, but if he does, perhaps it's because he's planning to use Wilfork and Pryor at DE more often to give Sebastian Vollmer types more lower back pain?
 
1. Do you understand football at all? Are you kidding?

2. too fat/big and far too slow to play DE...... he would be the biggest and most ineffective DE everm if he converted. He is a NT for a reason.

3. I think I have become less intelligent reading your post.

4. Thank you for wasting 20 seconds of my life reading that nonsense.

5.

1. Yes, I understand that the Pats run a 2-gap 3-4 system where the defensive ends are asked to control their gaps rather than just rush the QB. I wonder if you even knew that?

2. Wilfork is a better, bigger, and stronger athlete than Wright, so does that make Wright a steaming pile of garbage in your eyes?

3. Now you're just trolling.

4. Ok, sure. And this has what to do with football?

5. I have seen 2 year olds express better reasoning skills. But thanks for playing!

BTW Here are Wilforks predraft numbers:

Pre-draft measureables
Height Weight 40-yard dash 10-yard split 20-yard split 20 ss 3-cone Vert Broad BP Wonderlic
6-1? * 323 * 5.08 ** 4.50 ** 7.62 ** 26½? ** 8?5? ** 36 *
* represents NFL Combine **represents Miami Pro Day[5]
Vince Wilfork - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He ran a 5.08 40 at his pro day which is quite fast and athletic for a man of his size. Far from your assertions of a 'fat slob'. He also ran a 4.50 20 yard short shuttle which would have put him as the MOST AGILE of all offensive linemen in the 2010 Combine and I'm pretty sure would have put him competitive with any other 300 lb plus defensive lineman in this year's draft class.

In short, you don't know what you're talking about. Next time leave the football discussion to the adults.
 
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I don't mean to start a fight here, but Harkdawg your posts (not just in this thread) are miserable. Please don't ban me, it's just hard to read/comprehend without thinking he is in middle school.

Cody in the 3rd would be fine by me, but I have a feeling he will be gone way before then. I still definitely would like to pickup another possible NT, so we can have some flexibility with Myron Pryor, who seems to be a good 3-4 end candidate himself before all is said and done.
 
you sir did not play football.

a troll?? plz...




Wilfork cannot be a DE.




any coaches in your family? If so you did not acquire the "sense".


Wilfork cannot be an effective DE you are wasting space w/ him playing there. Too Fat/Big and slow. Not a DE. You make 0 sense.


He is a solid NT..... you do not move him to DE.
 
I don't mean to start a fight here, but Harkdawg your posts (not just in this thread) are miserable. Please don't ban me, it's just hard to read/comprehend without thinking he is in middle school.

Cody in the 3rd would be fine by me, but I have a feeling he will be gone way before then. I still definitely would like to pickup another possible NT, so we can have some flexibility with Myron Pryor, who seems to be a good 3-4 end candidate himself before all is said and done.




your opinion.... w/e


Wilfork to DE will never happen.
 
Pre-draft measureables
Height Weight 40-yard dash 10-yard split 20-yard split 20 ss 3-cone Vert Broad BP Wonderlic
6-1? * 323 * 5.08 ** 4.50 ** 7.62 ** 26½? ** 8?5? ** 36 *
* represents NFL Combine **represents Miami Pro Day[5]




Ok........ 5 yr's later he is pushing 360-370lbs. More like 370ish but our roster generously sheds 20 plus pounds off of him.

As a DE he cannot put pressure on a QB because he is slow and if he happens to chase the QB; the QB would simply scramble away from him.
At a generous 355 I KNOW he cannot turn on a dime while running.


Just imagine him trying to tackle a mobile QB.... why do you bring up numbers from 5 yrs ago?

-LT's RT's are tall athletes. some 6-8 most 6-4-6-6.

will you attempt a leverage argument now b/c he is shorter than Tackles?


omg why do I bother...


Wilfork as permanent DE is not possible. A few plays why not.....
 
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Pre-draft measureables
Height Weight 40-yard dash 10-yard split 20-yard split 20 ss 3-cone Vert Broad BP Wonderlic
6-1? * 323 * 5.08 ** 4.50 ** 7.62 ** 26½? ** 8?5? ** 36 *
* represents NFL Combine **represents Miami Pro Day[5]




Ok........ 5 yr's later he is pushing 360-370lbs. More like 370ish but our roster generously sheds 20 plus pounds off of him.

As a DE he cannot put pressure on a QB because he is slow and if he happens to chase the QB; the QB would simply scramble away from him.
At a generous 355 I KNOW he cannot turn on a dime while running.


Just imagine him trying to tackle a mobile QB.... why do you bring up numbers from 5 yrs ago?

-LT's RT's are tall athletes. some 6-8 most 6-4-6-6.

will you attempt a leverage argument now b/c he is shorter than Tackles?


omg why do I bother...


Wilfork as permanent DE is not possible. A few plays why not.....

 
Moving Wilfork to DE would be a dumb move
 
That has to be the biggest sig I've ever seen. Holy smokes.
 
Moving Wilfork to DE would be a dumb move

Why? Because some MMA Chump who has shown extremely questionable football information says so?

I have news for you. WIlfork has already played DE in the 3-4 for the Pats... In several games.
 
Let me state up front that I believe the Pats can stand to improve their run defense. That being said, in what way were the Pats run on with "decent success" by anybody? Against the Ravens? In the reg season and playoffs, the Ravens had one big play in each but were hardly dominating otherwise (4.1 ypc on only 16 carries in the reg season and under 3 ypc in the playoffs). You want to remake their run defense based on two blown plays?

But you can't eliminate those two big plays when tallying up their YPC against - just as you can't eliminate the plays in which they stuffed the Ravens. When it comes to the playoff games, stats or no stats, I saw what happened that game - and that's the Ravens run the ball effectively enough to get first downs without passing the ball. There was a small window in which the team could have mounted a comeback, but it was ultimately futile in large part thanks to the Ravens ability to move the chains without Flacco having to throw.

To your larger point (ie "who are you trying to stop?") - I agree with you, its a pass first league, and the elite teams are passing based offenses. Which is another reason why I think Wilfork is mildly overvalued and Seymour was moderately undervalued. Take the Colts game for example, one of the rare times this year Wilfork was asked to play outside of the base D on a regular basis (if I recall we were in a nickel almost all game) - he was gassed by the end of the game, as was the rest of the D, and the results speak for themselves. I'm not saying Seymour would have won us that game, but I do believe he could've made a difference.

As for Perillo's point about Seymour, sure, he could be full of it - but he's not the first one to allude to it. A couple mediots said the Patriots tried to ship them Wilfork first (Felger was one, so take it for what it's worth), but that the Raiders weren't interested. I'd usually dismiss that, but that was seemingly confirmed by Al Davis ramblings when the trade went down (though this is confusing, if I could find it, I would post it, but I can't - but in true senile form, he rambled about how the Patriots offered them one player, and he said he was interested in '92', of course, he gave the wrong number).

Whether you buy any of the two above things, I would say this - Seymour was a better player than Wilfork, and a more valuable player to this team, who could be on the field for more snaps, in more packages, and in higher leverage situations, against more elite teams. Ultimately, the reason Seymour isn't here and Wilfork will remain probably has more to do with the fact that DE is so overvalued ($ wise) and NT is undervalued. So in terms of value, it makes sense to go with Wilfork and try and replace Seymour.

But did the plan work? So far, I think not - we were forced to use Wilfork at DE against elite LTs last year and were forced to play Wright at NT at times. Meaning, the Patriots thought the increase in Wilfork's ability over Green at DE was greater than the drop-off from Wilfork to Wright at NT.

Again, I'm not trying to rip Wilfork here. I just think the absence of Richard Seymour at DE is downplayed way too much on this board.
 
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In an attempt to bring it down a notch...why not focus on whether drafting Cody and using him with Wilfork is the best move, NOT if it is a viable move.

The current lineup is Warren-Wilfork-Pryor
Brace backs up the nose and Wright is a spot/situational starter and package guy. We'll leave Richard out of the discussion though I think he could develop in time.

Without cutting/trading someone on the list, there is room for one more. Ideally, Pryor moves to a Wright-like role and a new DE is put in place. So to use a top 50 pick in a deep draft for this purpose, you should want to get:

1) Immediate Impact

Player should be on the field day 1. Doesn't have to be a starter, but should get a fair share of snaps with Pryor/Wright/Brace.

2) Flexibility

As noted many times in this thread and others, the Pats run a variety of formations designed to counter offensive strengths. You have to able to do well against the Jets/Ravens as well as the Colts/Chargers.

3) Ability to Be Effective at any Point in the Game

This may seem odd, but there is an underlying point. In addition to providing flexibility from game-to-game, ideally you can also provide flexibility from half-to-half and drive-to-drive.

By these criteria, you can probably tell I wasn't thrilled with the Brace pick last year. But what does this mean in choosing between Cody and Odrick/Price/Houston?

All of them should be able to contribute on day 1...or at least they have generally the same amount of uncertainty.

Cody provides limited flexibility. He is on the nose or part of a "Williams Wall" in the 4-3. If he is at NT, Wilfork either moves outside or waaaaaay outside next to Belichick. Odrick/Price/Houston probably don't have the bulk to play the nose, but have the skills needed to do just about everything else.

Cody brings a 3rd "big guy" to the rotation. That brings up questions regarding situational readiness. Big guys wear down and recover differently than less big guys. That means Wilfork (at least at last years playing weight), Brace and Cody would need to be managed carefully so that they are still viable options at the end of a half, at the end of a game or for a key situation at any point in the game.

So while adding Cody would make the Pats stronger in some situations, it would reduce position flexibility on the line and add a dimension of care & maintenance that doesn't exist today. Adding Odrick/Price/Houston would make the Pats stronger in some situations as well, but would also provide the flexibility to morph the Pats defense to meet any challenges...not just strong running teams.
 
But you can't eliminate those two big plays when tallying up their YPC against - just as you can't eliminate the plays in which they stuffed the Ravens.

Not eliminating them. Just saying that the Pats were largely successful with their personnel and scheme for almost 70 snaps. They sucked royally on 2 snaps. Making a judgement about the personnel and scheme based more on those two plays than their overall body of work seems rash.

When it comes to the playoff games, stats or no stats, I saw what happened that game - and that's the Ravens run the ball effectively enough to get first downs without passing the ball. There was a small window in which the team could have mounted a comeback, but it was ultimately futile in large part thanks to the Ravens ability to move the chains without Flacco having to throw.

Don't run from stats, just use them in context. Did the Pats dominate the Ravens by holding them to under 3 ypc? No way. It only takes 3.3 ypc to get first downs on every series in 3 downs and the Ravens generally got keys yards on the ground when they needed them.

However, I saw the game too. The Ravens had 5 drives that started in NE territory, including 4 straight. If I had told you that the Ravens would have 9 consecutive drives gaining less than 30 yards, you would have taken that and started looking forward to SD. The Ravens got 20 points on drives equivalent to the NCAA overtime rules! The Pats defense was constantly kicked in the nuts by the offense and to expect them to perform optimally under those conditions is unreasonable.

Here are the results on the 5 drives during this time started outside the Pats 25:
3 for -1, Punt
4 for 10, Interception
3 for 1, Punt
7 for 21, Half
3 for 8, Punt

Bottom line, I wouldn't use this game as the basis for any team building activities.

Again, I'm not trying to rip Wilfork here. I just think the absence of Richard Seymour at DE is downplayed way too much on this board.

I actually think more people agree with you than you think. The Seymour situation just played out the only way it could. He wasn't going to be re-signed and getting a #1 from the Raiders (get ready to rename Nantucket "Peterson Island") was just too good to pass up. If the Rams offered a 2011 #1 for Wilfork, he might be headed out of town as well. Not an indictment of Seymour or Wilfork. Just the reality of building the Pats team for the next 5 to 10 years.
 
I'd take him and his one-dimension in the 4th round
 
In an attempt to bring it down a notch...why not focus on whether drafting Cody and using him with Wilfork is the best move, NOT if it is a viable move.
#1 is Suh. #2 is Odrick. #3 McCoy. Then you get into marginal and developmental options.

The current lineup is Warren-Wilfork-Pryor
Pryor did 99% of his work inside, my speculation that he could be a new tool for gaining leverage on taller OT is just that, speculation until we see more of it in game situations. Until then, Mike Wright gets penciled in as starting RDE.

Developmental (D)/Marginal (M) options: Bold are guys whom I think are better options...
Cam Thomas (D)
Tyson Alualu (D)

Lamarr Houston (M)
Carlos Dunlap (M)
Corey Wooton (D)
Arthur Jones (D)
Brandon Deaderick (D)
Alex Carrington (D)
Austen Lane (D)

Clifton Geathers (D)
Mike Neal (M)
Vince Oghobaase (D)
Linval Joseph (D)
Corey Peters (D)
Doug Worthington (D)
Jay Ross (D)
John Fletcher (D)

Travis Ivey (D)
Lorenzo Washington (M)
Sean Lissemore (D)
Mitch Unrein (M)
 
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In an attempt to bring it down a notch...why not focus on whether drafting Cody and using him with Wilfork is the best move, NOT if it is a viable move.

The current lineup is Warren-Wilfork-Pryor
Brace backs up the nose and Wright is a spot/situational starter and package guy. We'll leave Richard out of the discussion though I think he could develop in time.

As a minor quibble, I'd say that it's Warren-Wilfork-Pryor/Wright, with no clear starter among the latter two (Wright did play close to twice the number of snaps).
 
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