Mike Pennel released

[Marqui]

A similar case was made a few years back when the switch from 3-4 to 4-3 happened, and a reporter asked about it. BB's reply was that for as long as he's been here, they've been teaching the same techniques, but just changed the way they were implemented. He said then and he's said dozens of times since then, including multiple times when asked about the invested prevalence if nickel defenses, that it starts with defending the run; if you can't do that you can't do anything else you might want to do. The Patriots are a two-gapping team who rely on having someone who commands a double team and someone else who can handle one, so the LBs can do their jobs and make stops. I see no basis for your claim that they've changed that scheme.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree that Cowart doesn't meet the need for a 3rd rotational big man.

It would be nice if he could but i just don’t see him being effective in that role

 

[captain stone]

We don't necessarily need a 4th pure NT in order to be an effective team against the run.

A 4th?!? We don't even have a 2nd now.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

When I saw Pennel early in camp, he looked like a beast. However, that was in a four man line. In a three man line, it became obvious he could not two gap and played on skates.

I do not know if Cowart cost Pennel a spot on the team, but I do know leaky run defense is a death nail in the nfl.

 

[Sciz]

I’m not sure why a one-gapping defense would be so surprising to people. Belichick tried to hire a defensive coordinator who had the #1 rushing defense in 2012 with no DTs bigger than 301 pounds, mainly because they never made any real attempt to do anything other than shoot gaps.

 

[RobertWeathers]

No I am not at all caught up in naming positions. I’m talking about roles and the type of players that got the role.
When we play nickel base EXCLUSIVE OF 3rd AND LONG we play 2 300lb DTs. We always have and we must. We need big DTs because we are short a lb on the run game.
We need 3 of those guys because they have d to rotate. Michael Bennett cannot effectively play that role. He can’t play over the g and be expected to take on double teams in the running game.
We also need at least one very stout DE. That’s is Bennett. Wise is really the only other option at that spot.

When it’s 3rd and long we often move a DE inside. That is Bennett. That’s a different role and is totally separate from the players that play DT in base nickel.



We have never, ever done that before. Unless there are 20 3rd and longs (or 2 minute drill where we sometimes use it)
How in the world are we going to defend he run from nickel with the entire DL playing a position bigger than they are.
You want a 300 lb NT a 275 lb DT and a 240 lb DE. We would get destroyed.


He is a DE. That’s the point.


TEs split out safeties okay in the box. That doesn’t make them different players. A TE split out is not defended the same as a WR. A S in the box is less effective vs the run and more effective vs the pass than a lb. that’s why there is a difference.

Bennett will play like a DT once in a while. But he will do it in situations where run defending DTs are off the field because of down and distance. Back to the beginning of the discussion. Bennett will see zero of the snaps Pennel would have seem. That is the point.

Pennel's usage had nothing to do with Bennett's snaps.

Moving on.

 

[SBLIII]

A 4th?!? We don't even have a 2nd now.

I'm really interested who our 2nd and 3rd NT are supposed to be.

 

[Clonamery]

I'm really interested who our 2nd and 3rd NT are supposed to be.

Scooby? Gunner?

 

[Sicilian]

I'm really interested who our 2nd and 3rd NT are supposed to be.

We didn't really have a 2nd or 3rd NT in 2003. We had Ted Washington, and then I guess Seymour could have played it (but it wouldn't have been the best use of him IMO). No one else on defense was bigger than Cowart, Guy, Parry, etc. Now, Shelton is NOT Washington, but for depth purposes, we're in a similar boat. And that team was 4th in rush defense (6th in YPC against). Other than 2004 when we had Traylor and a rooki Vince, I'm not sure we've routinely had two great NT on this defense in a long while.

If I'm missing a duo, let me know. This is more an exercise in my own memory than an attempt to prove anyone's opinion right/wrong.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, we sometimes go into the season without enough backup at certain positions. This should not be a goal. It certainly should be the way we enter a season, if the situation can be avoided.

We didn't really have a 2nd or 3rd NT in 2003. We had Ted Washington, and then I guess Seymour could have played it (but it wouldn't have been the best use of him IMO). No one else on defense was bigger than Cowart, Guy, Parry, etc. Now, Shelton is NOT Washington, but for depth purposes, we're in a similar boat. And that team was 4th in rush defense (6th in YPC against). Other than 2004 when we had Traylor and a rooki Vince, I'm not sure we've routinely had two great NT on this defense in a long while.

If I'm missing a duo, let me know. This is more an exercise in my own memory than an attempt to prove anyone's opinion right/wrong.

 

[Sicilian]

Yes, we sometimes go into the season without enough backup at certain positions. This should not be a goal. It certainly should be the way we enter a season, if the situation can be avoided.

Oh certainly it's better to have depth at as many positions as possible (though having it at every position is anything but). My question is more, how often did we have a backup to the pure NT position? Feels like we've always backed it up with smaller DT types (~300lbs), and very rarely have carried more than one in the 330 range, even when we were running a more traditional 2-gap 3-4. Again, this isn't saying you're wrong, I'm sure I'm forgetting about a lot of backups from over the years, I'm just having trouble coming up with names.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Oh certainly it's better to have depth at as many positions as possible (though having it at every position is anything but). My question is more, how often did we have a backup to the pure NT position? Feels like we've always backed it up with smaller DT types (~300lbs), and very rarely have carried more than one in the 330 range, even when we were running a more traditional 2-gap 3-4. Again, this isn't saying you're wrong, I'm sure I'm forgetting about a lot of backups from over the years, I'm just having trouble coming up with names.

In 14 we had VW, Branch and Siliga. That is the only time I can recall having 3 330+lb on the roster at the same time.

Right now we have one. We should have 2.

 

[Marqui]

I'm really interested who our 2nd and 3rd NT are supposed to be.

I think right now the back up NT is David Parry. He's smaller but has a similar skillset to Shelton.

 

[mgteich]

yup, that's who we have

I think right now the back up NT is David Parry. He's smaller but has a similar skillset to Shelton.