Mike Pennel released

[patfanken]

The DT position was not a strength last year and it appears weaker this year.

You have clearly said a LOT in this thread, but this is the one I'd take exception to. First of all comparing the interior DL of last season to this one is an apples to oranges task since, clearly, it seems thus far that we are playing far different front 7 alignments this year. Last year during the regular season we were primarily a 4-3, 4-2 team. This year it seems like we we will be more of a 3-4, 3-3 team.

But that being said, It would seem that we are going to get a much better version of Danny Shelton, Guy who was one of the better rated DT's in the league last season has shown no signs of slowing down. Adam Butler is Adam Butler. AND Bryan Cowart could end up being a steal in the draft.

So how exactly are we weaker at DT this season? Seems to me that we might be stronger in the interior DL vs the run with the with Collins and Bentley returning at LB, and better in the interior rush with Shelton's improvement and the addition of Michael Bennett in the interior rush role that Trey Flowers did so well.

 

[Biffins]

You have clearly said a LOT in this thread, but this is the one I'd take exception to. First of all comparing the interior DL of last season to this one is an apples to oranges task since, clearly, it seems thus far that we are playing far different front 7 alignments this year. Last year during the regular season we were primarily a 4-3, 4-2 team. This year it seems like we we will be more of a 3-4, 3-3 team.

But that being said, It would seem that we are going to get a much better version of Danny Shelton, Guy who was one of the better rated DT's in the league last season has shown no signs of slowing down. Adam Butler is Adam Butler. AND Bryan Cowart could end up being a steal in the draft.

So how exactly are we weaker at DT this season? Seems to me that we might be stronger in the interior DL vs the run with the with Collins and Bentley returning at LB, and better in the interior rush with Shelton's improvement and the addition of Michael Bennett in the interior rush role that Trey Flowers did so well.

You're arguing with Andy Johnson here.................................. Come on. You think you can change his mind?

 

[pencilneckgeek]

Danny Shelton

2015 rookie
2016 pretty good
2017 mediocre
2018 mediocre - then shows up in SB53
2019 TBD

You could argue he’s now one of the more important players on the team. If his play goes south, BB/Mayo will probably need to get out of the 3-3-5/5-2 looks.

I’m really not a fan of Danny Shelton in the Alan Branch role as it’s too important. Coaches better be on him.

I felt the same way about Shelton last year, but he came through in the biggest game of the year. More importantly, he figured out what limited him last year (weight), and he addressed it and looks good this year.

 

[Ring 6]

You have clearly said a LOT in this thread, but this is the one I'd take exception to. First of all comparing the interior DL of last season to this one is an apples to oranges task since, clearly, it seems thus far that we are playing far different front 7 alignments this year. Last year during the regular season we were primarily a 4-3, 4-2 team. This year it seems like we we will be more of a 3-4, 3-3 team.

We know from experience that what Belichick runs in the preseason and what he runs in the regular season are not always the same.
We also know from experience that we play nickel base and will have 2 players between G and G on downs that are not obvious passing downs.
That’s what I am referring to. Dismiss what the other 9 players do for the sake of this argument.
Last year we had Guy, Brown and Shelton and that wasnt good.
This year we have Guy, Shelton and Who knows.

But that being said, It would seem that we are going to get a much better version of Danny Shelton, Guy who was one of the better rated DT's in the league last season has shown no signs of slowing down. Adam Butler is Adam Butler. AND Bryan Cowart could end up being a steal in the draft.

Butler can’t play effectively between the Gs on non o viola passing dorms. Cowart is not the size player BB has ever used in that role.

So how exactly are we weaker at DT this season? Seems to me that we might be stronger in the interior DL vs the run with the with Collins and Bentley returning at LB, and better in the interior rush with Shelton's improvement and the addition of Michael Bennett in the interior rush role that Trey Flowers did so well.

Again, on non obvious passing downs, between the Gs it’s pretty scary what we have. We struggled with the 3 we had last year, lost one and seen to have not replaced him.

 

[Ring 6]

You're arguing with Andy Johnson here.................................. Come on. You think you can change his mind?

He certainly could change my mind if he showed me a solution to the problem I see.
Not liking the problem won’t change my mind.

 

[Wax Frog]

I'll miss "non o viola passing dorms" the most

 

[mgteich]

and he has played some DE

I don't think that he is a DT, and certainly not a backup to Shelton

One thing to note, and it surprised me when I saw it, is that Kamalu has been playing 3-4 OLB for us.

 

[mgteich]

Let's break it down

LAST YEAR
Are you disagreeing with the proposition that DT was a weakness with
Shelton, Brown, Guy and Butler?

Both Shelton and Brown had poor years. The general consensus was that Bill would allow both to go to free agency, and we would re-sign the one that others didn't want. And, so it was. Do you think that Shelton is a major improvement over Shelton and Brown?

Are you saying the Bennett at DE helps the DT more than Flowers did?

THIS YEAR
We replaced Brown with Cowart. Do you really believe that this a major improvement?

That being said, I think that absent injuries, DT play will improve because of the improvement at LB.

MY CONCLUSION
We need a backup to Shelton. Perhaps, Parry is the man. Perhaps, we need an acquisition.

You have clearly said a LOT in this thread, but this is the one I'd take exception to. First of all comparing the interior DL of last season to this one is an apples to oranges task since, clearly, it seems thus far that we are playing far different front 7 alignments this year. Last year during the regular season we were primarily a 4-3, 4-2 team. This year it seems like we we will be more of a 3-4, 3-3 team.

But that being said, It would seem that we are going to get a much better version of Danny Shelton, Guy who was one of the better rated DT's in the league last season has shown no signs of slowing down. Adam Butler is Adam Butler. AND Bryan Cowart could end up being a steal in the draft.

So how exactly are we weaker at DT this season? Seems to me that we might be stronger in the interior DL vs the run with the with Collins and Bentley returning at LB, and better in the interior rush with Shelton's improvement and the addition of Michael Bennett in the interior rush role that Trey Flowers did so well.

 

[catent]

We know from experience that what Belichick runs in the preseason and what he runs in the regular season are not always the same.
We also know from experience that we play nickel base and will have 2 players between G and G on downs that are not obvious passing downs.
That’s what I am referring to. Dismiss what the other 9 players do for the sake of this argument.
Last year we had Guy, Brown and Shelton and that wasnt good.
This year we have Guy, Shelton and Who knows.


Butler can’t play effectively between the Gs on non o viola passing dorms. Cowart is not the size player BB has ever used in that role.


Again, on non obvious passing downs, between the Gs it’s pretty scary what we have. We struggled with the 3 we had last year, lost one and seen to have not replaced him.

Cowart is 6'3", 300 lbs. Brown weighed in at 319 lbs. The difference is marginal and Cowart has shown ability to play physically and violently between the tackles.

But that's moot. Why does what BB has done previously matter? The game evolves, rosters evolve, schematics evolve, and so the approach changes.

Additionally we have Parry and Wise, with the former being larger and the latter on the smaller size, but they're both apt at defending the run.

We're talking about the 4th defensive tackle position, which will ultimately be used sparingly and against run-heavy teams.

As I see it, this falls one of two ways:

either,

a.) Pennel was a capable player but BB did not see a role for him
or
b.) Pennel was not a capable player, and BB will attempt to find a player who is

Regardless of which is the correct answer I don't understand why we're fretting over this. Either Pennel was no good here, or there wasn't a role for him; maybe both.

 

[mgteich]

Your conclusion (b) is correct. However, that doesn't make the smaller Cowart a capable backup at NT. Cowart is similar to Butler. In fact, many posters choose only one for the roster, for that reason.

Cowart is 6'3", 300 lbs. Brown weighed in at 319 lbs. The difference is marginal and Cowart has shown ability to play physically and violently between the tackles.
.
As I see it, this falls one of two ways:

either,

a.) Pennel was a capable player but BB did not see a role for him
or
b.) Pennel was not a capable player, and BB will attempt to find a player who is

Regardless of which is the correct answer I don't understand why we're fretting over this. Either Pennel was no good here, or there wasn't a role for him; maybe both.

 

[Marqui]

Yup. He was dead-on. It’s going to be interesting if we ever hear why. He seemed to be a good fit for the scheme.

They changed the scheme, they want more penetrating NTs now.

 

[catent]

Your conclusion (b) is correct. However, that doesn't make the smaller Cowart a capable backup at NT. Cowart is similar to Butler. In fact, many posters choose only one for the roster, for that reason.

Similar ... maybe.

Cowart seems to have superior strength than Butler, and seems to be more violent and physical at the point of attack, whereas Butler is strictly a quick, interior pass-rusher.

We don't necessarily need a 4th pure NT in order to be an effective team against the run.

 

[Ring 6]

Cowart is 6'3", 300 lbs. Brown weighed in at 319 lbs. The difference is marginal and Cowart has shown ability to play physically and violently between the tackles.

No I think it is different. Cowart isn’t a run stuffing double team eating DT. He is more like Guy who you don’t want in that role either.

But that's moot. Why does what BB has done previously matter? The game evolves, rosters evolve, schematics evolve, and so the approach changes.

Seriously? The scheme that bb has evolved is meaningless?
I think everyone will agree we have evolved to nickel base. The league is moving in the direction that you have to play nickel base not say from it.
When we have not had 2 stout run stuffing DTs and a lb like Hightower we have struggled with the run and put the d in bad situations. Remember the eagles?

Additionally we have Parry and Wise, with the former being larger and the latter on the smaller size, but they're both apt at defending the run.

I hope Parry is the answer. Wise is only a DT in obvious passing situations and isn’t a consideration at all for this issue.

We're talking about the 4th defensive tackle position, which will ultimately be used sparingly and against run-heavy teams.

3rd DT in a 3 man rotation and the area that defines the defense. If we can’t stop the run from the nickel we are screwed. If we don’t have stout run stuffing DTs and a LB like HT we struggle to stop the run in nickel. Everything flows from that.

As I see it, this falls one of two ways:

either,

a.) Pennel was a capable player but BB did not see a role for him
or
b.) Pennel was not a capable player, and BB will attempt to find a player who is

Well there is clearly a role and a very important one. Pennel either sucked or was beaten out by parry or both.
The third alternative is we go with 2 of the 3 players in this role being undersized which is scary

Regardless of which is the correct answer I don't understand why we're fretting over this. Either Pennel was no good here, or there wasn't a role for him; maybe both.

Because the role is VITAL.
We run a defense where we need to stop the run from nickel. If we can’t, everything suffers. The DTs are more important in run defense in a nickel base. Vitally important.
We struggled last year because Shelton struggled meaning brown and guy had to spend a lot more time inside the g taking double teams and not doing well. So not only are we counting on a 180 from
Shelton we gave no one else to fall back on.
It’s a huge issue. A lot more of an issue than the 5th wr or his we deemphasize the TE.

We lost more games last year than we did since 2009 and the one consistent thing in those losses was poor interior run d.
We hid the problem last year. Looks like we have to hope for he same thing this year.

 

[Ring 6]

Similar ... maybe.

Cowart seems to have superior strength than Butler, and seems to be more violent and physical at the point of attack, whereas Butler is strictly a quick, interior pass-rusher.

We don't necessarily need a 4th pure NT in order to be an effective team against the run.

We need 2 NT. We have 1 and he failed last year.

 

[Ring 6]

Let's break it down

LAST YEAR
Are you disagreeing with the proposition that DT was a weakness with
Shelton, Brown, Guy and Butler?

Both Shelton and Brown had poor years. The general consensus was that Bill would allow both to go to free agency, and we would re-sign the one that others didn't want. And, so it was. Do you think that Shelton is a major improvement over Shelton and Brown?

Are you saying the Bennett at DE helps the DT more than Flowers did?

THIS YEAR
We replaced Brown with Cowart. Do you really believe that this a major improvement?

That being said, I think that absent injuries, DT play will improve because of the improvement at LB.

MY CONCLUSION
We need a backup to Shelton. Perhaps, Parry is the man. Perhaps, we need an acquisition.

I don’t think we replace brown with Cowart.
I think we replace brown with Shelton and haven’t replaced Shelton
Cowart is replacing or supplementing butler.

 

[catent]

I find the insistence that there is an absolute need for a 2nd true NT to be puzzling.

BB's personnel approach over the last several seasons would indicate he feels differently; going into the season with 3 DTs and 1 true NT isn't a one-off fluke in terms team-building/personnel approach at interior DL.

It's been a trend for several seasons now.

 

[jah]

I find the insistence that there is an absolute need for a 2nd true NT to be puzzling.

BB's personnel approach over the last several seasons would indicate he feels differently; going into the season with 3 DTs and 1 true NT isn't a one-off fluke in terms team-building/personnel approach at interior DL.

It's been a trend for several seasons now.

I'm mostly thinking about this situation in terms of net gain/loss from last year. One of the few losses we didn't really replace was Malcom Brown. It wouldn't have taken much to replace his production, but Pennel was the most likely candidate. I don't see anyone with a Malcom Brown skillset on this roster. Unless I have Cowart mischaracterized (I see him at the same position as Butler), who's that balanced DT who can play the run while not necessarily being a traditional nose tackle?

Brown wasn't very good, but he played a lot on a very good defense. The plan could be to avoid replacing him entirely and play more Cowart/Butler types at the same time as 3 man front DEs.

Since Pennel is gone already, we mostly know you're right about not needing more than one true NT. I just don't know if our existing DT room covers a wide spectrum of situations.

 

[patfanken]

Your conclusion (b) is correct. However, that doesn't make the smaller Cowart a capable backup at NT. Cowart is similar to Butler. In fact, many posters choose only one for the roster, for that reason.

2 points. I contend that your assumption that Butler and Cowart are similar players is way too simplistic and I don't think correct. We know what Butler is and always has been which is an interior pass rusher who relies on quickness and technique to succeed. So he is a situational player who is a liability in the run game. Based on a very small data base, Cowart SEEMS like a much more physical and explosive player. Someone who is not a liability in the run game and he looks to be a player who can HOPEFULLY replace and improve on the job Brown did last season by the end of the season.

The 2nd point is that based on what we've seen so far the defense SEEMS to be undergoing changes not only in alignment but responsibilities. Clearly because of the strength, depth and position flexibility of the LB group what we see is very fluid, so it has become much harder to isolate individual responsibilities. Of the LB group only Bentley and Roberts have defined roles as inside run stoppers, all the rest of them can be aligned all over the field, from ILB's, OLB's or even DE's and it might not be the same 2 plays in a row.

The DL is showing the same kind of DL flexibility. Bennett is listed as a DE, but made his preseason sack lining up over the C. We all assume that Bennett is going to be used up and down the LOS mostly in passing situations, but he's never been a liability in run game. We know that Guy can play 4-3 DT or 3-4 DE, so can Cowart. Wise has excelled as a 4-3 DE, but seems to be light in the pants as a 3-4 DE, hence the questions whether he makes the roster. I think he will, but his playing time will be situational like Butler. I really don't know enough about Parry, Thurman and Kamalu to comment intelligently on.

Good conversation, btw.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

They changed the scheme, they want more penetrating NTs now.

A similar case was made a few years back when the switch from 3-4 to 4-3 happened, and a reporter asked about it. BB's reply was that for as long as he's been here, they've been teaching the same techniques, but just changed the way they were implemented. He said then and he's said dozens of times since then, including multiple times when asked about the invested prevalence if nickel defenses, that it starts with defending the run; if you can't do that you can't do anything else you might want to do. The Patriots are a two-gapping team who rely on having someone who commands a double team and someone else who can handle one, so the LBs can do their jobs and make stops. I see no basis for your claim that they've changed that scheme.

I find the insistence that there is an absolute need for a 2nd true NT to be puzzling.

BB's personnel approach over the last several seasons would indicate he feels differently; going into the season with 3 DTs and 1 true NT isn't a one-off fluke in terms team-building/personnel approach at interior DL.

It's been a trend for several seasons now.

BB may not have had a NT able to play 65-70% of the snaps since Vince, but that's not a trend. That's making do. Now, perhaps he'll make do with Shelton and Guy (or Party) splitting time at NT and Cowart and Butler (or Guy) at 3 tech, but that's not saying that they don't need a 2nd NT. I'm not sure exactly how fat or slow you need to be to be a "true NT," but if their backup NT is 310 pounds, the Pats are going to have a tough time defending the run after the first 2.5 quarters of the game. DLmen get rotated more than any other position in the game, because it's such a demanding position, and players get worn down and become ineffective if they don't get spelled by a capable backup. Being undersized at one of those DT positions is only going to make matters worse and is a recipe for failure. The nickel run D has been the biggest weakness of the team for a couple years now. Folks are right to be concerned that Pennell couldn't provide the help needed at the NT position.

 

[mgteich]

I agree that Cowart doesn't meet the need for a 3rd rotational big man.

I don’t think we replace brown with Cowart.
I think we replace brown with Shelton and haven’t replaced Shelton
Cowart is replacing or supplementing butler.