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Michael Holley on WEEI....


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When Holley made the statement it wasnt in a gloom and doom way. It was the fact that he seemed pretty confident that the Pats will bring someone in before the draft. Holley pretty much felt something is going to happen. its hard to describe what he meant by it, but it was not as negative as it seems in print.
 
JoeSixPat said:
Here's what I take from Holley's comments.

In past seasons we've generally had all starting positions filled and have used free agency and the draft to acquire depth and youth.

This year is different. We have significant holes to fill and a more pressing need for quality depth given many of our departures.

Free agency, the draft, and trades are three ways to retool your team. We have not been particularly active in free agency.

That leaves the draft and trades. Since it takes two to tango on trades, expect to see BB explore trade opportunities before, rather than after the draft as he has in past years - as once he knows where he stands with trades he can use the draft to address team needs.

Any needs that aren't addressed prior to and during the draft will come in the form of acquiring players cut by other teams - and while some jewels can be found in that rough, players are usually cut by other teams for good reasons.


Joe - what are these significant holes you speak of? An OLB or ILB or two?? A WR or two?? A back up #3 TE?? I really think either through the draft, an RFA offer, a post 6/1 acquisition or a trade will easily address those needs as well as bring the needed depth you speak of. I do not think we are in that bad shape at all.
 
fgssand said:
Joe - what are these significant holes you speak of? An OLB or ILB or two?? A WR or two?? A back up #3 TE?? I really think either through the draft, an RFA offer, a post 6/1 acquisition or a trade will easily address those needs as well as bring the needed depth you speak of. I do not think we are in that bad shape at all.

You might want to review the additions and subtractions of the team in the offseason thus far.

I guess if you are of the opinion that a WR corps that lacked depth last year got stronger with the replacement of Givens, Dwight and Davis with Reche Caldwell then I suppose you have a point.

I don't know about you, but I kindof felt like Willie McGinest had some big plays for us here and there, as did Adam Vinatieri (and its a big "if" on whether Gramatica can get the job done)

Many of our other players aren't getting any younger and you may have noticed quite a few people around here actually talking about using a 1st round draft choice on a TE.

Yeah, I'd say we have some holes to fill.

That doesn't mean we go off an panic like some have, but that doesn't mean we ignore some very basic realities - that our subtractions by far outweigh our additions and free agency has not been a significant resource for us thus far.
 
JoeSixPat said:
You might want to review the additions and subtractions of the team in the offseason thus far.

I guess if you are of the opinion that a WR corps that lacked depth last year got stronger with the replacement of Givens, Dwight and Davis with Reche Caldwell then I suppose you have a point.

I don't know about you, but I kindof felt like Willie McGinest had some big plays for us here and there, as did Adam Vinatieri (and its a big "if" on whether Gramatica can get the job done)

Many of our other players aren't getting any younger and you may have noticed quite a few people around here actually talking about using a 1st round draft choice on a TE.

Yeah, I'd say we have some holes to fill.

That doesn't mean we go off an panic like some have, but that doesn't mean we ignore some very basic realities - that our subtractions by far outweigh our additions and free agency has not been a significant resource for us thus far.

We do need to add a WR who can contribute, and unless Claridge or Beisel steps up we need a LB (need a couple of guys to develop anyway). The only age issues are at RB IMO.

However when I look at the roster at the end of last year and then look at the IR guys who are coming back I am fairly comfortable with the roster. I am sure the FO will take whatever PRUDENT opportunities they see to improve the roster.

I assume the goal this year is to win the SB again. BB/SP will do everything that needs to be done to reach that goal
 
Drafting a TE in the first round would be pretty mind-boggling. Sure, the Patriots want depth behind Graham and Watson, but how much depth are we talking about? A first-round pick to sit on the bench, unless someone gets hurt? Typically the 3rd TE (and often the 2nd!) is a blocker/ST specialist, someone to provide muscle in goal-line situations. The Patriots have been unique in that they have two top-tier athletes at the #1 and #2 TE positions, and had a capable pass-catcher as the 3rd.

Personally, I think Fauria's veteran status and experience with BB's offense was the only reason he was kept around once Watson was signed. If Fauria hadn't been as productive during his tenure, I think BB would've signed a bigger, heavier TE in order to not have to use guys like Seymour and Ashworth at the goal-line.
 
JoeSixPat said:
You might want to review the additions and subtractions of the team in the offseason thus far.

I guess if you are of the opinion that a WR corps that lacked depth last year got stronger with the replacement of Givens, Dwight and Davis with Reche Caldwell then I suppose you have a point.

I don't know about you, but I kindof felt like Willie McGinest had some big plays for us here and there, as did Adam Vinatieri (and its a big "if" on whether Gramatica can get the job done)

Many of our other players aren't getting any younger and you may have noticed quite a few people around here actually talking about using a 1st round draft choice on a TE.

Yeah, I'd say we have some holes to fill.

That doesn't mean we go off an panic like some have, but that doesn't mean we ignore some very basic realities - that our subtractions by far outweigh our additions and free agency has not been a significant resource for us thus far.

I have a TOTALLY different outlook on this, which I will try to explain, because your points are valid.

I dont think this Patriot dynasty has at all been about the 'playmakers' or the 10 guys whose name is most recognized. Sure, they have made wonderful contributions but every crappy team in the NFL can point to a David Givens or Willie McGinest. The difference is we call them 'winners' here.
We have not won because of the good play of good players. Every team in the NFL has that.
We have won because of the OVERALL talent level on the field, but much more because of the 'worst' 5 players on the field than the best 5 in any given unit.
In other words, while every team has strengths, we have lacked weaknesses. This was most apparent to me in 2001. We were not real good at anything, but every player we put on the field could hold their own and not be dominanted by a star player, could beat a mediocre player a little more often than not, and could dominate a bad plater.
In 02, we had severe weakness that got exploited.
In 03 and 04 we actually, believe it or not, had a better team than we played like, but the depth was so strong we went 34-4 with an unbelievable and unprecented (for a Champion) amount of injuries.
What happened last year?
Who were the biggest liabilities on the roster? The players that instead of being on the field and being at least adequate, were on the sidleines and replaced by bad players, many plucked off the street.
Rodney Harrison, ultimately sucked last year. Because in his place was a collection of stiffs who got burned consistently. HIS POSITION killed us. That cant happen and have you still be head and shoulders above the league, because the weakest link in the chain hurts 10 times more than the strongest one helps.
So, that leads us to BBs approach to the 05-06 off-season.
We lost some pretty good players. Guess what, we still have as many good players as anyone.
Why did we ALLOW McGinest, Givens, Vinatieri, etc to leave? We admit that we will be WORSE at their positions. But we will not suck there. We could have afforded to keep all of them. We CHOSE not to. Why?
2 reasons.
1) The cost of keeping them and keeping those positions at that level, is outweighted by how much we can improve the overall team with the same money. Not if you are caught up in name power, and playmaking, but definitely if you accept that the worst 2-3 players we put on the field in the 4th quarter of game #11 of next season will be MUCH better than the ones we did last year.
Do not expect to 'replace' these guys. We won't. Expect that we will be worse at K, #2 WR, OLB (or ILB depending on where Vrabel ends up) but understand that you will not see QBs torching our secondary because we have guys on the field who are liabilities.
The money will be spent on upgrading either the worst of the starters, or the depth of the team. That will increase the overall talent level. I am MUCH more concerned with players like Stone, Freeman, Starks, Evans, Poteat, Troy Brown at corner, Klecko, Wright as a rookie, TBC, etc, etc needing to be relied upon in the inevitable event of injury than I am about who our #2 WR will be. You can downgrade that spot to medicore, and the net result is a big gain if in turn you upgrade a spot that has a terrible player at it to mediocre.
2) Loom at the history of our losses to the roster.
Woody, Washington, Law, Andruzzi, Givens, McGinest, Vinatieri, Milloy to name a few.
What did they all have in common? EITHER they had an injury history or were at a point in their career where they were a large injury risk (McG and AV fit the second, you are playing with fire to think they can both be counted on for 32 games the next 2 years, or in AVs case, 32 fully healthy ones) By the way, I accept Vinatieri is no more injury prone than any kicker, but no less either, and surely more than in the past, so AT HIS PRICE the risk is high.

We have all read about BBs 02-03 off-season approach of getting faster and younger on D.
To me his 05-06 off-season approach is just as clear.
1) We have had a ton of injuries.
2) We overcame them with depth in 03 and 04 but depth was eroded and we couldnt overcome them in 05
3) We need to revamp the roster so we are less likely to have injuries
4) We need to protect against injuries by having a 53 man roster full of quality depth.

The plan many would have had for BB would have been to pony up for the big name players, because how can we replace them. BBs plan is to accept downgrades in some spots (if you dont accept it ahead of time it happens anyway and you are unprepared. No team gets better everywhere in an off-season) and use that money to upgrade many others.

To give it a mathematical analogy:
(We assume 100= stud player who plays every down when healthy, 80 equals decent full time player, 50 equals good backup, and 10 equals barely belong in the NFL)
I will give up 3 100s and replace them with 80s if that means I upgrade 10 10s to 50s. THAT is exactly what BB is in the process of doing.
The signings wont impress you NOW. The draft will, as always be questioned.

But during the season, we will (hopefully) see fewer games lost to injury, but if not see all of these questionable acquisitions step in and play adequately. We may miss a game winning kick, but we won't see receivers running wide open in the secondary, which would have meant we never had the shot at a game winning kick. We may miss a big play form Willie, but it will result in a decent play by someone else, followed by the absence of big plays against us.

Put one final way: It is NOT about the plays we make, it is about the plays the other team doesnt make, on both sides of the ball.

I will take a team of the 53 most average players in the NFL and put it up against 90% of the teams in the NFL, and it will win, very often. Those average guys will never be liabilities and they will expose the other teams liabilities.

Think about this: Do "big plays" win games? Are 'big playmakers' typically hoisting Lombardis? Or when they do isnt it because they are on a team that doesnt get exploited in any area?

Name the last team to win it all that sucked at anything? Name the last team that was great at one thing that won it all? (And dont give me the Rams of 2000, because they were #1 in defense)

The 2005 Patriots sucked at some things, all related to good players not being on the field and their replacements being explited. That NEVER happened in 01, 03, 04. BB is committed that while we may not be as good at what we do well (its foolish to think you always will be) we will not suck at anything in 2006.

Get ready, the Lombardi is coming home!!!
 
GoWhalers said:
Drafting a TE in the first round would be pretty mind-boggling. Sure, the Patriots want depth behind Graham and Watson, but how much depth are we talking about? A first-round pick to sit on the bench, unless someone gets hurt? Typically the 3rd TE (and often the 2nd!) is a blocker/ST specialist, someone to provide muscle in goal-line situations. The Patriots have been unique in that they have two top-tier athletes at the #1 and #2 TE positions, and had a capable pass-catcher as the 3rd.

Personally, I think Fauria's veteran status and experience with BB's offense was the only reason he was kept around once Watson was signed. If Fauria hadn't been as productive during his tenure, I think BB would've signed a bigger, heavier TE in order to not have to use guys like Seymour and Ashworth at the goal-line.
I think people are saying TE because BB seems fascinated by TEs.

The truth is that the TE is at least 2 positions with us. The 2nd TE plays more than the FB. The TEs are often used where other teams would use 4th or even 3rd WRs.
I think in our offense there are 2 'starters' who are called TEs but actually play very versatile roles.
I think it is wise for us to be concerned about having a good 3rd TE. (we surely can get away without it, as Fauria rarely saw the field last year) but having one surely gives us options in the event one of the 2 'starters' is hurt.

Its not going to be a round 1 pick, but it could be a day 2 or a FA.
By instinct is that it will be a FA who has some areas of strength and some of weakness, because when needed he can specialize.

If you look back outside of Watson and Graham we have always tried to acquire TEs who are strong in one phase of the game even if they are weak in others (Fauria, Flemister,Alexander, Bjornson, Hollowy, Love, etc)
 
JoeSixPat said:
You might want to review the additions and subtractions of the team in the offseason thus far.

I guess if you are of the opinion that a WR corps that lacked depth last year got stronger with the replacement of Givens, Dwight and Davis with Reche Caldwell then I suppose you have a point.

I don't know about you, but I kindof felt like Willie McGinest had some big plays for us here and there, as did Adam Vinatieri (and its a big "if" on whether Gramatica can get the job done)

Many of our other players aren't getting any younger and you may have noticed quite a few people around here actually talking about using a 1st round draft choice on a TE.

Yeah, I'd say we have some holes to fill.

That doesn't mean we go off an panic like some have, but that doesn't mean we ignore some very basic realities - that our subtractions by far outweigh our additions and free agency has not been a significant resource for us thus far.


Review complete - I stand by what I said, I like what I see very much. I said we need WR and ILB/OLB help. That's about it. You speak of age, I see that we have got younger this offseason and made great strides cementing our young core group. The guys we lost so far are two excellent vets whose best days are behind them and a young awesome #2 WR who was able to get #1 money.
As I said, it's very early in the process, trade possibilties, the draft, RFA offers, 6/1 cuts and additional FA's are in front of us and will take care of needs and depth.
Trust man trust - we will be going 14-2 and 3-0 = "easiest" Championship of all, coming up.
 
fgssand said:
Review complete - I stand by what I said, I like what I see very much. I said we need WR and ILB/OLB help. That's about it. You speak of age, I see that we have got younger this offseason and made great strides cementing our young core group. The guys we lost so far are two excellent vets whose best days are behind them and a young awesome #2 WR who was able to get #1 money.
As I said, it's very early in the process, trade possibilties, the draft, RFA offers, 6/1 cuts and additional FA's are in front of us and will take care of needs and depth.
Trust man trust - we will be going 14-2 and 3-0 = "easiest" Championship of all, coming up.

We will probably start the 2006 season with as many as 20 different players that were not here last year.
I am far less concerned with the 3 who play Givens, McGinest and Vinaiteris spots than the cpmbined contribuitions of the other 17.
 
AndyJohnson said:
I think people are saying TE because BB seems fascinated by TEs.

The truth is that the TE is at least 2 positions with us. The 2nd TE plays more than the FB. The TEs are often used where other teams would use 4th or even 3rd WRs.
I think in our offense there are 2 'starters' who are called TEs but actually play very versatile roles.
I think it is wise for us to be concerned about having a good 3rd TE. (we surely can get away without it, as Fauria rarely saw the field last year) but having one surely gives us options in the event one of the 2 'starters' is hurt.

Its not going to be a round 1 pick, but it could be a day 2 or a FA.
By instinct is that it will be a FA who has some areas of strength and some of weakness, because when needed he can specialize.

If you look back outside of Watson and Graham we have always tried to acquire TEs who are strong in one phase of the game even if they are weak in others (Fauria, Flemister,Alexander, Bjornson, Hollowy, Love, etc)

But Andy, you gotta admit that if Davis came within 5-7 picks of #21 that BB may very well pull the trigger on him.
 
Digger44 said:
But Andy, you gotta admit that if Davis came within 5-7 picks of #21 that BB may very well pull the trigger on him.

I dont think so. I think there is more value for THE PATRIOTS than Davis.

If the best player in the draft plays a postion I have very good players at, and the 2nd best plays a position I am weak at, its a no brainer, I try to trade down, and if not, pick the 2nd best.

Its about building a winning team not being in love with talent.
 
AndyJohnson said:
We will probably start the 2006 season with as many as 20 different players that were not here last year.
I am far less concerned with the 3 who play Givens, McGinest and Vinaiteris spots than the cpmbined contribuitions of the other 17.

Certainly 20 players is a large number - I wonder how the squad turned between 2003 & 2004 and then 2004 & 2005 for comparison??

I like the emphasis being placed on players to shore up our special teams so far.
 
The point I took from Holley's comments and this thread was not whether or not we have signficant needs yet to be addressed in the offseason. We do and that's a fact.

As I described I took Holley's comments as a suggestion that there are things BB controls and things he doesn't.

He doesn't control who he can and can't trade for (it takes two to tango) - but he does control who he drafts at each selection, picking from the remaining players.

That's why Holley, I surmise, was suggesting that BB will attempt to address some needs PRIOR to the draft with attempted trades.

That which remains unadressed prior to the draft will be addressed in the draft. Additional moves will probably be possible following camp cuts, and with trades for players other teams no longer value, but that's not something you want to count on.

No one seems to be overly disagreeing in this thread - my point is simply that we have a much higher degree of need for starters and depth at many positions than we did last year. Different needs can require different strategies.

Last year we lacked WR depth.
This year we have less depth than before.

Last year we thought we needed to start looking for the RB of the future.
This year that concern appears even more pressing.

Last year we needed quality OLB & ILB backups.
This year we still have that need, our FA pickups falling short of expectations, and our remaining starters all a year older.

Last year we had the best kicker in the NFL.
This year we have a big question mark.

Last year we had Willie McGinest making valueable contributions.
This year we do not.

Last year we had a healthy Rodney Harrison helping to make a young secondary better through his presence.
This year we hope he returns at full speed.

Last year we had 3 quality TEs on the roster.
This year we have 2 but many question whether Graham will re-sign in the offseason.

This strikes me as a slightly different picture than the last few years, and I expect that BB recognizes the differences as well. That being said I understand why re-signing Givens and McGinest was not feasible and lament the fact that AV would not give the Pats a chance to match when they could have (should have?) franchised him again.

None of that is relevant to this thread. Its simply a matter of what our needs are now and how we are going to address them.
 
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best kicker last year?....stop believing the hype and review the facts...mediocre kicker at best over 40yds.....mr. clutch who missed 2 in that Panthers superbowl....shes gone long live the queen
 
BradyBirdYazOrr said:
best kicker last year?....stop believing the hype and review the facts...mediocre kicker at best over 40yds.....mr. clutch who missed 2 in that Panthers superbowl....shes gone long live the queen

It's very easy to slate someone once they have left isn't it? I suppose you would have preferred Vanderjagt in the Carolina superbowl? After all he was automatic at that time.

Please. A bit more respect for former players wouldn't go amiss.
 
Michael Holley seems to have a "mole" in the Pats org, it may even be some players, who know what is going on. His comments seems to be related to some info that he has some insight on or just to keep interest in his show. It is all about the ratings...fortunately he usually has better info than most.
 
Did you see Vernon Davis on the ESPN Draft show last night? The guy is oozing "Patriots-type-player" all over the place. I like the possibility of making him a WR as one of his few weaknesses seems to be blocking technique, and that could be developed too. I think if BB can move to get him, he will.
 
GJAJ15 said:
Michael Holley seems to have a "mole" in the Pats org, it may even be some players, who know what is going on. His comments seems to be related to some info that he has some insight on or just to keep interest in his show. It is all about the ratings...fortunately he usually has better info than most.
How can you make these statements? Since when does BB & SP have moles or let the players know what is going on? Maybe you are thinking of another organization bcs the Pats are the most tight-lipped of an team.
 
wistahpatsfan said:
Did you see Vernon Davis on the ESPN Draft show last night? The guy is oozing "Patriots-type-player" all over the place. I like the possibility of making him a WR as one of his few weaknesses seems to be blocking technique, and that could be developed too. I think if BB can move to get him, he will.

I agree. Even if Davis stays at TE, try Watson @ WR.
 
Davis - it's a nice dream. He would have to fall 8-10 spots beyond S.F. for BB to legitimately trade up.
 
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