Mason Graham vs Abdul Carter

[One-If-By-Sea]

That's really the debate, isn't it. Who's the better player?

Not for everyone. Lots of people want to draft a WR or an OT, not the best player. Last year we bypassed multiple special defensive players because we drafted almost all offense. Huge mistake.

 

[Steve102]

Not for everyone. Lots of people want to draft a WR or an OT, not the best player. Last year we bypassed multiple special defensive players because we drafted almost all offense. Huge mistake.

I meant for this thread.

 

[bakes781]

I've crossed Hunter off my list as I just don't value his position as high.

So the debate is still Carter v Graham for me. I feel like Carter has the higher ceiling/lower floor and we need to take some risk.

 

[manxman2601]

There's quite a few snaps of Carter playing linebacker in this highlight video and I think I like him there just as much as on the EDGE . His ability to Hunt down the football is outstanding; spying the QB, run and pass blitzes from the MLB slot, heck, even an interception as a Tampa-2 MLB.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I was thinking about this debate last night and I finally ended up putting Carter/Hunter above Graham based upon a thought experiment that I want to run by you.

Imagine all three players play up to their full potential (for this thought experiment I'm imagining Hunter as a full time CB who gets 15-20 snaps per game on offense).

If all three players play to their full potential, in five years time are you more likely too:

1. Having drafted Mason Graham be disappointed watching Carter/Hunter's production on other teams.

2. Having drafted Carter/Hunter be disappointed watching Graham's production on other teams.

For me it's clearly number one which is why I'm taking both before Graham. Now that doesn't mean I've soured on Graham because I haven't, I'd be very happy if he was the pick at 4. But whereas before I had viewed all three equally, I now have some clear space between Carter/Hunter and Graham.

Carter is 2" taller and 10 pounds heavier that Joshua Uche. I am not sure he can hold the edge as a DE, so Carter ends up being a LB? Can Carter play LB in the NFL? Can he tackle big RBs like Stevenson? Or is Carter off the field on early downs? Not sure I would use a #4 pick on Carter.

Hunter and Graham don't come off the field. Hunter plays two positions, WR and CB. Hunter can be the WR deep threat. Hunter's eye-hand coordination is crazy good for deep balls or jump balls.

 

[manxman2601]

Carter is 2" taller and 10 pounds heavier that Joshua Uche. I am not sure he can hold the edge as a DE, so Carter ends up being a LB? Can Carter play LB in the NFL? Can he tackle big RBs like Stevenson? Or is Carter off the field on early downs? Not sure I would use a #4 pick on Carter.

Hunter and Graham don't come off the field. Hunter plays two positions, WR and CB. Hunter can be the WR deep threat. Hunter's eye-hand coordination is crazy good for deep balls or jump balls.

Carter is about the same size as Harold Landry that was a staple of Vrabel's defense and 250lbs is not small for a linebacker. If it was me, I'd use him as a pass rusher on obvious passing downs and an attacking linebacker at other times. Also, it's not as though his run defense grade is poor , it's just 4 points behind Mykel Williams, Jack Sawyer and ahead of Scourton who 285lb.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Carter is about the same size as Harold Landry that was a staple of Vrabel's defense and 250lbs is not small for a linebacker. If it was me, I'd use him as a pass rusher on obvious passing downs and an attacking linebacker at other times. Also, it's not as though his run defense grade is poor , it's just 4 points behind Mykel Williams, Jack Sawyer and ahead of Scourton who 285lb.

Those type of hybrid players are boom or bust, IMO. I love Carter on 3rd down, I am not sure about Carter on 1st and 2nd in the NFL, it requires some projection.

Graham does not come off the field. Hunter even plays more than 3 downs.

The best ability is availability, especially for a #4 pick. I like dependable versus super high ceilings.

 

[manxman2601]

Those type of hybrid players are boom or bust, IMO. I love Carter on 3rd down, I am not sure about Carter on 1st and 2nd in the NFL, it requires some projection.

Graham does not come off the field. Hunter even plays more than 3 downs.

The best ability is availability, especially for a #4 pick. I like dependable versus super high ceilings.

That's fair but I like Carter as a ball hunter on the first two downs and do think this team needs pass rush. I'm out on Princely now (just doesn't have the strength) so I do start to wonder where the pass rush comes from. I'm currently mocking Carter in the first if available and then either Walter Nolen or TJ Sanders (who I really like) at 38. I prefer that option to reversing the positions.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

That's fair but I like Carter as a ball hunter on the first two downs and do think this team needs pass rush. I'm out on Princely now (just doesn't have the strength) so I do start to wonder where the pass rush comes from. I'm currently mocking Carter in the first if available and then either Walter Nolen or TJ Sanders (who I really like) at 38. I prefer that option to reversing the positions.

Did you see the Notre Dame RB muscle through Carter for the TD? I think Carter was playing through a bad left shoulder so that might have a role in the situation, but when I see a LB that can not stop a RB, I get nervous.

Hightower stonewalled Marshawn Lynch and on the next play Butler intercepted the pass. Lynch would have blown right through Carter.

 

[manxman2601]

Did you see the Notre Dame RB muscle through Carter for the TD? I think Carter was playing through a bad left shoulder so that might have a role in the situation, but when I see a LB that can not stop a RB, I get nervous.

Hightower stonewalled Marshawn Lynch and on the next play Butler intercepted the pass. Lynch would have blown right through Carter.

Hightower was 270 and a freak.but imagine Carter playing next to Hightower freed up to run and hit as Hightower took on the blocks. Out of curiosity, what would be your preference for a pass rusher on this team?

 

[Zuma]

I was thinking about this debate last night and I finally ended up putting Carter/Hunter above Graham based upon a thought experiment that I want to run by you.

Imagine all three players play up to their full potential (for this thought experiment I'm imagining Hunter as a full time CB who gets 15-20 snaps per game on offense).

I just can't see Hunter at 185lb playing full time at CB and getting 15-20 snaps on offense per game in the NFL. IMO he will be constantly injured if that's the case. It's a good thought experiment otherwise with Carter and Graham.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Hightower was 270 and a freak.but imagine Carter playing next to Hightower freed up to run and hit as Hightower took on the blocks. Out of curiosity, what would be your preference for a pass rusher on this team?

I prefer guys with some experience. Josh Sweat is #1, and after that we can sign a bunch of lesser guys like Judon, Mack, Young, etc., even Uche very situationally. The older guys need rest and get injured, but don't cost as much, so we would need to sign a couple. If Vrabel can trade for Jeff Simmons that would be amazing but hard to do. There are a lot of FAs this year and the Pats have huge cap space. I think we can cobble DE together in FA, and then target someone next year, but I do not know all of the prospects like you do.

 

[dliverey44]

That's fair but I like Carter as a ball hunter on the first two downs and do think this team needs pass rush. I'm out on Princely now (just doesn't have the strength) so I do start to wonder where the pass rush comes from. I'm currently mocking Carter in the first if available and then either Walter Nolen or TJ Sanders (who I really like) at 38. I prefer that option to reversing the positions.

I like Graham in a 4 man front. I think Carter is going to be an amazing player, but for I like pressure up the middle. I feel like middle pressure affects the QB more than the outside rush. Graham is very quick and stout against the run.

If my choice are Carter and Sanders or Graham and Mike Green. I feel like thats a wash

 

[manxman2601]

I like Graham in a 4 man front. I think Carter is going to be an amazing player, but for I like pressure up the middle. I feel like middle pressure affects the QB more than the outside rush. Graham is very quick and stout against the run.

If my choice are Carter and Sanders or Graham and Mike Green. I feel like thats a wash

I don't think you'll be getting Green at 38. He's getting more and more love as a first rounder. Things will be up in the air until after the senior bowl but I feel more comfortable about DTs slipping than I do elite pass rushers.

 

[Aussie Patriot]

If he wasn't there it makes Graham THE choice imo.

I think they are both excellent choices and wouldn't be unhappy with him at all.

 

[dliverey44]

I don't think you'll be getting Green at 38. He's getting more and more love as a first rounder. Things will be up in the air until after the senior bowl but I feel more comfortable about DTs slipping than I do elite pass rushers.

Fair point.

 

[Zuma]

It's only January. "The best player in the draft" will change multiple times before the draft...happens every year. We shall see.

 

[bakes781]

91 days

 

[WaterfallJumper]

I don't think either one is as good as top prospects of the past. Vea, Lawrence, and Davis were all more highly rated for me at DT, for example. Tough for me to get excited about anything other than a trade down.

 

[slash83]

Highly doubt Carter is going to be available at 4, maybe if the two QBs are drafted in the first three spots, but will see what happens.

I’m starting to like picking the DT Graham, excellent player and fills a need.