Manziel and the Patriots

[luuked]

Yeah, the idea that Manziel would be a practice squad player is absurd. I wouldn't be surprised if the Patriots draft a QB or sign Manziel and Hoyer is shown the door and it's just Brady and developmental QB on the opening day roster. Teams won't exactly be batting down his door, and if the worst happens then he'll still be a phone call away. They've done this plenty of times in the past with rookies (Mallett, Garoppolo, etc.) The reason Hoyer was signed at all is because they didn't have anyone and they were halfway through the season.

Unless that developmental QB has an incredible learning rate both in terms of the mental game and physical traits I can't imagine how Hoyer is not on the active roster this season.

 

[PWRxWLF]

Can we just cut you instead ?

I’m shocked to be honest with you. After all this time and reading all of his crazy ass trade threads I thought for sure it was a by product of some seriously wicked nor-cal reefer talkin’. Now I’ve got to just accept them for what they are and I don’t know if am ready for that.

 

[primetime]

Unless that developmental QB has an incredible learning rate both in terms of the mental game and physical traits I can't imagine how Hoyer is not on the active roster this season.

Garoppolo was the sole quarterback his rookie year. It's not unprecedented.

 

[mgteich]

I think that we will carry 3 quarterbacks. One option is to bring in Manziel and draft a top rookie this year and next. Another is to bring in Manziel and later drafted rookie this year and another quarterback next year.

My preference is for us to draft a QB in the top 50 picks. In this case, with Manziel in camp, the team could decide whether the 1st round rookie or Manziel were capable of being the backup this year, as Cassel was long ago. That would provide the best flexibility. Obviously, more likely would be that Hoyer would be kept and Manziel cut.

I don't see Manziel as a multi year project to see if he can cope with the NFL. The team should be able to tell in camp and the per-season. The man has lots of talent.

The BOTTOM LINE is that we need to develop a QB and a backup QB. This is the year to start. This effort will take one draft pick and a roster spot, but the effort is needed.

Personally, I’m all about second and third chances and wouldn’t really have much of a problem with bringing him here as a camp arm, but as luuked has already pointed out, where does he get practice reps at? I don’t mind taking a flier at yet another former first round pick with some raw talent, but he doesn’t seem like much of a fit in this offense.

We wouldn’t be in a position to keep three QBs, and we’re assuming that a rookie will be selected. Between Brady, Hoyer, and the rookie, there doesn’t seem to be many more valuable reps to be given. I mean, he could get some time playing in the preseason, but where does it go from there?

The only way I could see him brought in would be if the team waited until UDFAs to pick up their no name QB, and then attempted to get him through to the practice squad, while keeping Manziel as a QB3. It may be a bit difficult to imagine that scenario happening.

 

[mgteich]

Unless that developmental QB has an incredible learning rate both in terms of the mental game and physical traits I can't imagine how Hoyer is not on the active roster this season.

hmmm

I believe that there are many, many coaching staffs in the NFL who can coach up a top 50 quarterback talent to be able to be a backup in his rookie year. I'm fine with keeping Hoyer also, but it is NOT out of the realm of possibility that Jackson or another top 50 pick could be our backup.

 

[Marqui]

I really hope they sign Manziel.

 

[RayClay]

Can't wait to see Johnny Foosball run around like a lunatic, then spin around and fling it blindly into quadruple coverage.

 

[Joker]

his head seems to be straightened out...could be a speed dial option

 

[luuked]

Garoppolo was the sole quarterback his rookie year. It's not unprecedented.

hmmm

I believe that there are many, many coaching staffs in the NFL who can coach up a top 50 quarterback talent to be able to be a backup in his rookie year. I'm fine with keeping Hoyer also, but it is NOT out of the realm of possibility that Jackson or another top 50 pick could be our backup.

Not saying it is unprecedented. Just that the QB will have a bigger hurdle to get over than JG because Mallet was garbage compared to Hoyer. Whatever happens with a QB3 if that player actually ends up replacing Hoyer it would be a very good sign imho.

 

[IllegalContact]

Not saying it is unprecedented. Just that the QB will have a bigger hurdle to get over than JG because Mallet was garbage compared to Hoyer. Whatever happens with a QB3 if that player actually ends up replacing Hoyer it would be a very good sign imho.

Why? Hoyer sucks....a dead end

 

[IllegalContact]

I have no problem with Manziel or kaepernick or Reid .... if they help the team

I recall the crap I took when I hoped for Corey Dillon before they traded for him....randy moss? Same thing

It goes back to the whole notion of the ‘patriot way’ and that it needs to be a team of virgins

Even with Gronk in his first couple of years here and how coach was going to have to sit him down and talk some sense into him.....cuz you know, the patriot way

 

[supafly]

I think that we will carry 3 quarterbacks. One option is to bring in Manziel and draft a top rookie this year and next. Another is to bring in Manziel and later drafted rookie this year and another quarterback next year.

My preference is for us to draft a QB in the top 50 picks. In this case, with Manziel in camp, the team could decide whether the 1st round rookie or Manziel were capable of being the backup this year, as Cassel was long ago. That would provide the best flexibility. Obviously, more likely would be that Hoyer would be kept and Manziel cut.

I don't see Manziel as a multi year project to see if he can cope with the NFL. The team should be able to tell in camp and the per-season. The man has lots of talent.

The BOTTOM LINE is that we need to develop a QB and a backup QB. This is the year to start. This effort will take one draft pick and a roster spot, but the effort is needed.

It’s difficult to imagine them choosing Manziel and a rookie over someone with extensive knowledge of our system in Hoyer. Just my opinion.

 

[mgteich]

It’s difficult to imagine them choosing Manziel and a rookie over someone with extensive knowledge of our system in Hoyer. Just my opinion.

I tend to agree. I guess that my hope is that the draftee would be able to be the backup, and that Manziel would be kept as a sort of an inexpensive wild card for the future.

 

[supafly]

I tend to agree. I guess that my hope is that the draftee would be able to be the backup, and that Manziel would be kept as a sort of an inexpensive wild card for the future.

The draftee will take a year trying to find his way around the building and learning 1/4 of the offense, at least in my opinion. That’s why a guy like Hoyer is needed. This was probably taken into account in terms of his contract structure, too, which would actually cost the team money if he’s cut.

I think Brady and Hoyer are locks. It’s that third spot that would be open for either a rookie/Manziel.

 

[mgteich]

The draftee will take a year trying to find his way around the building and learning 1/4 of the offense, at least in my opinion. That’s why a guy like Hoyer is needed. This was probably taken into account in terms of his contract structure, too, which would actually cost the team money if he’s cut.

I think Brady and Hoyer are locks. It’s that third spot that would be open for either a rookie/Manziel.

I understand this position, and strongly disagree.

Is the idea is that our coaches are significantly worse than those of other teams that coach up quarterbacks to either start or be backups? Or is our offense SO MUCH more difficult than that of other teams, that it can't be learned by a rookie.

I agree that some top quarterbacks are asked to start too early. However, I believe that there are quarterbacks capable of being a backup in their rookie years. It seems that our posters (including you) believe that this isn't possible or reasonable for the patriots. Is our offense really so difficult that a rookie can't absorb enough to be a backup? Perhaps we need an additional quarterback coach/tutor. It would be more reasonable than simply assuming that a player can't contribute as a rookie.

Further, if this is really true, then drafting QB is an even higher property than I would give it. After all, we won't know if a rookie is any good until at least Year 2.

AS AN ASIDE
This discussion is really a side issue with regard to Manziel. However, it is very important as we evaluate drafting a quarterback.

 

[supafly]

Is our offense really so difficult that a rookie can't absorb enough to be a backup? Perhaps we need an additional quarterback coach/tutor. It would be more reasonable than simply assuming that a player can't contribute as a rookie.

Further, if this is really true, then drafting QB is an even higher property than I would give it. After all, we won't know if a rookie is any good until at least Year 2.

To back up a 41 yr old QB as a rookie? Maybe a mid-30s Brady, but not now. Yes, our system is complex enough to where the first year is basically spent trying to get acclimated to the culture, pick up a fraction of the playbook, and hope to get some third QB reps/meaningless preseason action.

You just witnessed this with Jimmy Garoppolo, and he won his first 7 starts in the league. He wasn’t ready to start a game during his rookie year. He looked bad in the preseason of his second year. Actually, I believe Belichick has spoken on how the first year is spent here for a rookie QB. It takes months to get some of the basic concepts down, and then you’re halfway through the season. That’s not even bringing confidence into play. How many much more talented, highly drafted QBs have started and failed on other teams with much easier systems? Garoppolo started a game in his THIRD season, and even then we were 9 point underdogs with many giving us little hope of winning. I would see a new young QBs rookie year as leading to a throwaway year, although that would likely be the case if Hoyer were forced to play, too, although at least he has knowledge of reads/checks/what’s expected/basic chemistry with some players.

 

[mgteich]

I would see a new young QBs rookie year as leading to a throwaway year, although that would likely be the case if Hoyer were forced to play, too.

And the advantage of NOT training up a top quarterback is?

 

[supafly]

And the advantage of NOT training up a top quarterback is?

I’m not sure what you’re asking, but how much can a young rookie QB be “trained up” for the NE Patriots EP system in his first year as a pro football player?

The difference could be a shot at a WC spot with Hoyer (8-8 or 9-7 record or something). I doubt you’d see that kind of success with an outsider who has no knowledge of our system, even IF Belichick tried to dumb things down significantly. Look no further than Jacoby Brissett’s offensive production in the 2016 season.

 

[mgteich]

OK, thanks for clarifying.

I guess the patriots offensive is lots, lots, lots more complicated than any other in the league.
I believe that most other teams expect a QB drafted in the first two rounds to be able to be a backup in their rookie season.

Some teams expect such a quarterback to be able to start immediately or midway through the season. IMHO, that is indeed pushing the envelope.

I’m not sure what you’re asking, but how much can a young rookie QB be “trained up” for the NE Patriots EP system in his first year as a pro football player?

The difference could be a shot at a WC spot with Hoyer (8-8 or 9-7 record or something). I doubt you’d see that kind of success with an outsider who has no knowledge of our system, even IF Belichick tried to dumb things down significantly. Look no further than Jacoby Brissett’s offensive production in the 2016 season.

 

[fnordcircle]

Can't wait to see Johnny Foosball run around like a lunatic, then spin around and fling it blindly into quadruple coverage.

If it was 30 years ago Madden would be champing at the bit to turn him into a legend.