Linebackers - Backups and STers

[Brady6]

FOUR plus NINKOVICH
Obviously we have Mayo, Hightower, Spikes and Collins as locks. Ninkovich is both a linebacker in sub packages and a substitute if one of the linebackers is injured. Collins can be our coverage linebacker. Some think that A. Wilson can also help in this role.

Traditionally, the rest of the linebacker positions have been special team positions. HOW MANY additional linebackers should we carry?

FLETCHER seems to be a lock as the #5 LB and as a STer.

How many of our top special teamers from last year will we have on the team?
Koutouvides
Rivera
Tarpinian
I would also mention that Tracey White was also here last year.

Some (most) of us would cut ALL these top special teamers and expect Beauharnais to pick up the slack.
=======
On the DB/STer side, we are in better shape. We will likely keep 2 of T Wilson, Ebner and Cole. We have Ryan (and perhaps Harmon) to pick up the slack for the player lost.

Roster – Mayo, Hightower, Spikes, Collins, Fletcher
Practice Squad – Beauharnais
Shadow Roster – Koutouvides, Rivera

It is actually surprising to me how many people have Beauharnais on the roster, especially considering how many people have Buchanan as a bubble player. I do not see Beauharnais making the roster, I think we will keep 5 LB as we also have Ninkovich and Benard who are capable of playing the SAM position. I do not anticipate Beauharnais being claimed off waivers so I think he will slide onto the practice squad and potentially see a call up to the 53 man roster at some point in the season.

 

[mgteich]

The obvious question is who is going to play special teams. We used 7 players last year (counting Tarpinian/Carpenter as 1). IMHO, 5 LB's just won't cut it. White, Rivera and Koutouvides were top special teamers.

If you're just talking about Koutouvides and Rivera being out a week or two until the roster settles some, then fine. But we need the ST play. I have the "norm" of 15 front seven on the 53. IMHO, we might do with 14: the front 7 starters, plus one backup for each. The 15th might very well be Buchanan, but I would rather have a STer (and Ebner would be a fine choice).

Roster – Mayo, Hightower, Spikes, Collins, Fletcher
Practice Squad – Beauharnais
Shadow Roster – Koutouvides, Rivera

It is actually surprising to me how many people have Beauharnais on the roster, especially considering how many people have Buchanan as a bubble player. I do not see Beauharnais making the roster, I think we will keep 5 LB as we also have Ninkovich and Benard who are capable of playing the SAM position. I do not anticipate Beauharnais being claimed off waivers so I think he will slide onto the practice squad and potentially see a call up to the 53 man roster at some point in the season.

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: Linebackers - Backups and STers

The obvious question is who is going to play special teams. We used 7 players last year (counting Tarpinian/Carpenter as 1). IMHO, 5 LB's just won't cut it. White, Rivera and Koutouvides were top special teamers.

If you're just talking about Koutouvides and Rivera being out a week or two until the roster settles some, then fine. But we need the ST play. I have the "norm" of 15 front seven on the 53. IMHO, we might do with 14: the front 7 starters, plus one backup for each. The 15th might very well be Buchanan, but I would rather have a STer (and Ebner would be a fine choice).

I have a bit of a wild card in James Devlin; could see him making the cut as a FB and ST player. I'm likely wrong but for fun he is my pick

 

[mgteich]

I'm fine with 5 RB's instead of 4, but 6 seems excessive.

But, yes, Devlin could get a roster spot. He's as likely as Hooman, I suppose.

I have a bit of a wild card in James Devlin; could see him making the cut as a FB and ST player. I'm likely wrong but for fun he is my pick

 

[jah]

Tarpinian is our only true back up at the WOLB spot at this point.

I was pretty surprised to see Fletcher playing some WLB against the Bucs, but he looked pretty good. It makes sense because he's good in coverage, but I've always thought of him as purely a MLB. Even if Tarpinian is the only "true" WLB besides Mayo, I think Collins or Fletcher playing out of position are still better than Tarpinian at his natural position.

Also, I stand corrected about the 5 LB last season thing. I think that only happened for a few weeks in the early part of the season, because now I do remember Mayo, Spikes, Hightower, Rivera, White, Koutouvides being roster mainstays in addition to Tarpinian/Carpenter spending some time on the roster.

I don't think there was ever a point when there were 8 LB on the roster at once, though, and I think it was relatively rare for there to be 7 as well. I think it's most likely that we'll see 6 LB in September, but I also think BB will be watching the waiver wire to see if he can upgrade over Beauharnais/Rivera/Koutouvides, especially since they could all likely be on the shadow roster (PS for Beauharnais).

 

[belichick010405]

I think we will see six linebackers on the initial 53-man roster (Mayo, Hightower, Spikes, Fletcher, Collins) with the 6th dependent on if BB thinks that Beauharnais can and will make it to the practice squad.

If he thinks that Beauharnais can get to his practice squad then I think he is going to keep Tarpinian (something about him liking Iowa) over Koutovides and Rivera

Ninkovich serves as the emergency 7th linebacker for reasons that are obvious.

 

[VrabelJr]

Between Beauharnais instincts and leadership and Spikes likely not donning a Patriots next year and Buchanan looking like he has a ton of potential, trying to sneak either Buchanan or Beauharnais onto the practice squad would be a Giant (get it?!) mistake. They're both good as gone if we cut them and even if we keep them on the PS they can still be signed away.

The combination of future need, potential, dirt cheap contracts and Special Teams value makes them a must keep in my opinion.

 

[belichick010405]

Between Beauharnais instincts and leadership and Spikes likely not donning a Patriots next year and Buchanan looking like he has a ton of potential, trying to sneak either Buchanan or Beauharnais onto the practice squad would be a Giant (get it?!) mistake. They're both good as gone if we cut them and even if we keep them on the PS they can still be signed away.

The combination of future need, potential, dirt cheap contracts and Special Teams value makes them a must keep in my opinion.

I personally agree with that.....I think that is a consideration that BB and Caserio are going to think about if you know what I mean.

Another thing that we have learned is that he has a long memory and I am sure that he is not going to forget about letting go David Thomas (or was it Garrett Mills?) only to not be able to get him back.

 

[supafly]

Another thing that we have learned is that he has a long memory and I am sure that he is not going to forget about letting go David Thomas (or was it Garrett Mills?) only to not be able to get him back.

If you're talking about the situation where Brad Childress pretty much stole the player from us when cut so he didn't end up on our PS, it was Garrett Mills. Belichick later took one of his players too in retaliation.

Here's a little something on the bitter douche that is Brad Childress, and the acceptance that he's likely had to come to realizing that we kicked his ass just about every time we've faced him:

It Is What It Is » Brad Childress is no fan of Bill Belichick and the Patriots

 

[AzPatsFan]

I've heard that this has been Belichick's strategy since 2001. What evidence do you have that he is going to change how he views the Special Teams?

Don't make the mistake of treating what BB is forced to do, with what he wants to do. Even in the early years of the decade, there weren't enough good regular players to around. This year may be different, the team is getting very deep, the post 2009 total rebuilding is near completion, and allows him to do what he always wanted to do. :snob:

In 2009 there was Mayo and ??? at LB. This year there are rising LB stars in Mayo, Spikes, Hightower, Collins, plus Fletcher. There are easy nominal change additions in A. Wilson and Ninkovitch. So where is the room?

It is clear that BB values ST, and has imported a very good player/specialist expressly to improve them. Besides keeping at least 6 or maybe 7, good ST specialists, (K, P, S, Kr, Pr, gunner), is hardly short changing the ST Coach.

 

[supafly]

Don't make the mistake of treating what BB is forced to do, with what he wants to do. Even in the early years of the decade, there weren't enough good regular players to around. This year may be different, the team is getting very deep, the total rebuilding is near completion, and allows him to do what he always wanted to do. :snob:

In 2009 there was Mayo and ??? at LB. This year there are rising LB stars in Mayo, Spikes, Hightower, Collins, plus Fletcher. There are easy additions in A Wilson and Ninkovitch. So where is the room?

It is clear that BB values ST, and has imported a very good player/specialist expressly to improve them. Besides keeping at least 6 or maybe 7, good ST specialists, (K, P, S, Kr, Pr, gunner), is hardly short changing the ST Coach.

In all likelihood we'll probably be carrying another couple of players who will be ST only guys. Those will likely come at the positions of LB (choose any one of about 4), S (possibly Ebner), CB (possibly Cole), or even potentially QB (Tebow). I think we'll be keeping another 2 in addition to your "6 or 7."

That said, I still agree with your overall point that we're able to carry more actual positions this year with the addition of the past 2 drafts in terms of players such as T.Wilson, A.Wilson, Harmon, Ryan, Collins, etc...but you're probably at least 1-2 short at the least. We'll likely need that "6th LB" and then possibly a choice between Ebner/Cole/Dowling for another spot. Then of course, we still have the whole "Tebow debate" as he could be used for a special teams only spot too, in addition to being kept for some other duties and a hopeful sign of progression.

 

[ATippett56]

Leftovers from Patriots practice - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

3. Kickoff coverage unit strives to improve. One of the downers for the Patriots in Friday's preseason win over the Buccaneers was the team's kickoff coverage. The top unit included cornerback Kyle Arrrington; running back Brandon Bolden; linebackers Dane Fletcher, Jamie Collins and Jeff Tarpinian; safeties Duron Harmon, Adrian Wilson and Tavon Wilson; defensive end Marcus Benard, captain Matthew Slater and kicker Stephen Gostkowski. Said Slater: "We can't give up big plays like that. It kills the field-position battle and puts our defense in a tough situation. There are some things we need to clean up. Just across the board, I think everybody can do their job a little better and there's a lot of room for improvement."

 

[AzPatsFan]

Leftovers from Patriots practice - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Did you note that Tarpinian was the ONLY ST-only player on that team? Other than ST specialists Ghost and Slater. ALL the others are valid regular team players. BB, Scott O'Brien, and Joe Judge are transitioning away from ST-only players, as I have been saying.

They are having "teething problems" doing so, but they will work it out here, in TC, which is the proper place to do so.:snob:

 

[pencilneckgeek]

Between Beauharnais instincts and leadership and Spikes likely not donning a Patriots next year and Buchanan looking like he has a ton of potential, trying to sneak either Buchanan or Beauharnais onto the practice squad would be a Giant (get it?!) mistake. They're both good as gone if we cut them and even if we keep them on the PS they can still be signed away.

The combination of future need, potential, dirt cheap contracts and Special Teams value makes them a must keep in my opinion.

Buchanan certainly has the measurables that would make him tough to stash on the PS. Somebody will take a flyer on him to add depth. I'd like to see him get some reps on ST and see how he does in space.

Beauharnais, on the other hand, looks a little overmatched in terms of speed and strength, so he might be a good PS candidate. He certainly does a good job of being in the right place and with a year of NFL practice and weight training, might make a good depth player next year.

Did you note that Tarpinian was the ONLY ST-only player on that team? Other than ST specialists Ghost and Slater. ALL the others are valid regular team players. BB, Scott O'Brien, and Joe Judge are transitioning away from ST-only players, as I have been saying.

They are having "teething problems" doing so, but they will work it out here, in TC, which is the proper place to do so.:snob:

I think BB always wants guys on ST who will be serviceable backups. The question is: do they perform adequately on ST. That kickoff return squad certainly did not. AWilson got all kinds of spun around on that first kickoff return. That doesn't mean he can't do the job; he just didn't on that play. Let's see who BB rolls out there this week and how they perform before we declare the end of the ST specialist.

 

[mgteich]

???

Yup! On the ST that was awful, they had only Tarpinian.

On the other teams they had Koitouvodis, Rivera and Tarpinian. Of course, as execpted, those unit played better.

The kickoff unit greatly misses Ebner. Also, I'm not sure why Cole wasn't playing.

Did you note that Tarpinian was the ONLY ST-only player on that team? Other than ST specialists Ghost and Slater. ALL the others are valid regular team players. BB, Scott O'Brien, and Joe Judge are transitioning away from ST-only players, as I have been saying.

They are having "teething problems" doing so, but they will work it out here, in TC, which is the proper place to do so.:snob:

 

[PatsFan2]

FOUR plus NINKOVICH
Obviously we have Mayo, Hightower, Spikes and Collins as locks. Ninkovich is both a linebacker in sub packages and a substitute if one of the linebackers is injured. Collins can be our coverage linebacker. Some think that A. Wilson can also help in this role.

Traditionally, the rest of the linebacker positions have been special team positions. HOW MANY additional linebackers should we carry?

FLETCHER seems to be a lock as the #5 LB and as a STer.

How many of our top special teamers from last year will we have on the team?
Koutouvides
Rivera
Tarpinian
I would also mention that Tracey White was also here last year.

Some (most) of us would cut ALL these top special teamers and expect Beauharnais to pick up the slack.
=======
On the DB/STer side, we are in better shape. We will likely keep 2 of T Wilson, Ebner and Cole. We have Ryan (and perhaps Harmon) to pick up the slack for the player lost.

Dane Fletcher is more than a Special Teamer he's a heck of a LB on 3rd Downs covering TE's not named Vernon Davis or Jimmy Graham. *Most CB's cannot guard them*.

 

[ATippett56]

The kickoff unit greatly misses Ebner. Also, I'm not sure why Cole wasn't playing.

Nate Ebner has become a mystery this preseason.

 

[RayClay]

???

Yup! On the ST that was awful, they had only Tarpinian.

On the other teams they had Koitouvodis, Rivera and Tarpinian. Of course, as execpted, those unit played better.

The kickoff unit greatly misses Ebner. Also, I'm not sure why Cole wasn't playing.

I saw Tarpinian pull a Monty Beisel on a tackle right on him. I don't know how you play special teams if you're afraid to tackle.

 

[FirstAndGoal]

I saw Tarpinian pull a Monty Beisel on a tackle right on him. I don't know how you play special teams if you're afraid to tackle.

Not a Tarpinian fan either. I haven't seen him this year but watched him a bit last year.... overmatched at the linebacker position quite a bit. Obviously good enough for BB to keep him but he didn't pass the eye test with me last year.

 

[jmt57]

I find it difficult to envision a scenario where Tarpinian makes the roster, even after A.J. Edds was released. If you're looking for a LB/ST then either Koutouvides or Beauharnais would be a better choice.