Linebacker position Specifications

[dryheat44]

Nice research T-S, although it seems Willie simplifies the term to simply mean a DE/OLB Tweener.

I don't know how the article can name all those examples and not mention Lawrence Taylor, whom I thought was the original elephant.

 

[Boston Tim]

I don't want to be a wet blanket here, but I don't think there's much to this. The BB defense is built around the concept that players' roles are interchangeable.

You make a good point. I'll add to it and say that this LB "role-based" scheme works only against a traditional offense with 1 TE. What happens to the ROLB when the offense throws a second TE on the line on his side (or has just one TE on the line but sends him in motion to the other side) and all of a sudden the ROLB needs to have the qualifications of a LOLB? In a 2 TE set, what happens to the WILB when both TE go out on pass routes?

These matchup difficulties are why BB spends first rounders on tight ends. I really want to see the Pats draft a true RT so that Watson and Graham can both go out on pass routes instead of having to help Gorin protect Brady. I also think that this is why the Pats let Ashworth walk...

 

[bucky]

Not to start up a big argument or anything, but an "elephant" is just an undersized DE who has the ability to play in a 2 pt. stance. The ultimate "elephant" role was what Willie did in Carroll's defense. With BB's base 34, both OLBs are typically in a 2 pt stance, but they become DEs when they go to the nickel 4 man line. There's no doubt in my mind that either Vrabel or Colvin could play Willie's LOLB position if we drafted a great pass rushing OLB.

As for the ILBs, the Strongside ILB is actually the run stuffer. He is even called the Mike in the Pats' scheme. Bruschi can play both ILB spots, but the only other "Mike" the Pats have had recently is TJ. Vrabel, Phifer, and Monty have all been playing the Weak ILB spot (I could be wrong about Beisel). Personally, I think Beisel will be just fine there. His problem is really a combintion of technique and reads. He should become more comfortable with both in his second year. But it would be a good idea to add a Mike type of ILB and I think Kai Praham may be the perfect guy due to his size and background (being coached by Al Groh).

 

[dryheat44]

Not to start up a big argument or anything, but an "elephant" is just an undersized DE who has the ability to play in a 2 pt. stance. The ultimate "elephant" role was what Willie did in Carroll's defense. With BB's base 34, both OLBs are typically in a 2 pt stance, but they become DEs when they go to the nickel 4 man line. There's no doubt in my mind that either Vrabel or Colvin could play Willie's LOLB position if we drafted a great pass rushing OLB.

It just shows how the definition of some things changes over time.

 

[jczxohn1]

Not to start up a big argument or anything, but an "elephant" is just an undersized DE who has the ability to play in a 2 pt. stance. The ultimate "elephant" role was what Willie did in Carroll's defense. With BB's base 34, both OLBs are typically in a 2 pt stance, but they become DEs when they go to the nickel 4 man line. There's no doubt in my mind that either Vrabel or Colvin could play Willie's LOLB position if we drafted a great pass rushing OLB.

As for the ILBs, the Strongside ILB is actually the run stuffer. He is even called the Mike in the Pats' scheme. Bruschi can play both ILB spots, but the only other "Mike" the Pats have had recently is TJ. Vrabel, Phifer, and Monty have all been playing the Weak ILB spot (I could be wrong about Beisel). Personally, I think Beisel will be just fine there. His problem is really a combintion of technique and reads. He should become more comfortable with both in his second year. But it would be a good idea to add a Mike type of ILB and I think Kai Praham may be the perfect guy due to his size and background (being coached by Al Groh).

Agree on Parham because he is a run-stopper who can blitz. He had 8 his Sr. yr.

 

[Isaac]

Great thread, great posts. I'd love to hear BB's take on this discussion---undoubtedly he'd have a couple clarifications to make.

So, where do you all think DeMeco Ryans would fit as a Pats LB, if at all? The guy seems like a quintessential Belioli-type personality, but at 6'1' 235, it seems that he could only play ROLB (if that), which seems to be Colvin's for now.

 

[AzPatsFan]

That was a really informative post, thanks Az.

It seems that the Pats have holes created by the departures of Willie, Ted Johnson, and Phifer. Willie was a great strong-side OLB, Ted Johnson was a tough run stuffer, and Phifer was decent in coverage.

The Pats are missing a "tough guy" weak ILB to stuff the run, as well as a rare talent to play strong-OLB. Is Vrabel good enough to fill Willie's shoes, allowing the Pats to find a big WILB? Or if you draft a good strong-side OLB, are Vrabel or Bruschi strong enough to slide over and be the main run stuffer?

Since this draft is so loaded with linebackers, what are the chances the Pats Draft two linebackers in the first 3 rounds? 1st pick, someone like Lawson or Carpenter or Demeco, and 2nd/3rd pick someone like Abdul Hodge.

I would argue that when presented with a problem area, Iit is Belichick's modus operandi to:
a) bring in a vet ex-starter and
b) draft two guys for the position.

Examples:

He drafted Mankins and Kaczur 1 and 3;

He drafted Branch and Givens 2 and 7.
But more realistically he drafted Branch at 2 and came back next season with BJ at 2 and PK Sam at 5 as well.

IMO. You can take it to the Bank. There are two disnct openings outside and inside. I expect a OLB high and a Pair of WILBs with lower picks like 3 and 5 or 3 and 6. My candidates are Parham or Hoyte (3-4); Schlegal or Roach (6).

 

[shakadave]

Shaka Zulu

Finally, there is the LOLB or strongside OLB/DE. This is the true "elephant" position.

My namesake Shaka Zulu was referred to as the Great Elephant.

And thanks AzPats for the education. I am years behind reaching your understanding of the game, so you make this site valuable for the likes of me!

 

[AzPatsFan]

You make a good point. I'll add to it and say that this LB "role-based" scheme works only against a traditional offense with 1 TE. What happens to the ROLB when the offense throws a second TE on the line on his side (or has just one TE on the line but sends him in motion to the other side) and all of a sudden the ROLB needs to have the qualifications of a LOLB? In a 2 TE set, what happens to the WILB when both TE go out on pass routes?

These matchup difficulties are why BB spends first rounders on tight ends. I really want to see the Pats draft a true RT so that Watson and Graham can both go out on pass routes instead of having to help Gorin protect Brady. I also think that this is why the Pats let Ashworth walk...

In reality no one is all one thing or all another. BB wants "versatility" to cover just such exigencies. Willie did both OLB positions and Colvin does too, as did Vrabel. That's why BB likes the "rotation". It helps prevent a team from zeroing in on a perceived weakness. If the opponents player, say left tackle is having a very good game against our usual ROLB, than swapping them for a series or two presents a a"new face" that he may not match up as well against. And yes teams do changeup and put the TE next to the OLT.

That is why BB wants great athletes, first round types in his LB corps. They are more likely to be more talented, and able to handle more different assignments. Even TJ was not "just" a run stuffer. He took assignments in coverage and blitzing too. Its jsut he was much better at run stuffing.

When I described the "typical profile" for each position, I meant that is the attributes that you seek especially at that LB position, but not exclusively. All the LBs have to stop the run, cover the pass, shed blocks, tackle. It is a matter of degree in what they excell at that places them one place or another,most of the time.

Remember that Bruschi was a ROLB before he migrated inside to SILB and last year played WILB. Willie was a ROLB before settling at LOLB/SOLB. Phifer was a SOLB before moving inside to SILB. Cox did both WILB/SILB but was primarily a WILB.

I beleive Mike is the term used to describe a Mddle Line Backer in a 4-3 reserved for a play calling defensive diagnostician, the defensive leader. Its a carryover term, as was "SAM" for Strongside LB. With Besiel next to him there was no question who was THE ILB. With Vrabes paired its less certain who "Da Mike Man" is. I know I have heard Bruschi call Vrabes the defensive MVP.

 

[RayClayborne]

Lawson

Great post to start the thread..

Lawson may be a sleeper, he has elephant size and more than elephant speed...basically all the physical characteristics of the LOLB....plus he is raw...the Pats love the tabula rasa...learn it our way, less unlearning to do.

Also, realize that this guy would probably be LOLB on any other college team, just happened to be across from M Williams. Pats also have a long history of noticing stuff like this and seeing the forest for the trees. A lot of times they rely on the players high school football record (i.e. Cassel, Givens). Anyone know much about Lawson in high school?

And of course in terms of interchangeability, well...

I'd be willing to bet they draft Lawson over Carpenter if he is available

 

[AzPatsFan]

Great post to start the thread..

Lawson may be a sleeper, he has elephant size and more than elephant speed...basically all the physical characteristics of the LOLB....plus he is raw...the Pats love the tabula rasa...learn it our way, less unlearning to do.

Also, realize that this guy would probably be LOLB on any other college team, just happened to be across from M Williams. Pats also have a long history of noticing stuff like this and seeing the forest for the trees. A lot of times they rely on the players high school football record (i.e. Cassel, Givens). Anyone know much about Lawson in high school?

And of course in terms of interchangeability, well...

I'd be willing to bet they draft Lawson over Carpenter if he is available

I consider it important and significant that Llawson HAS played some OLB as well as DE, so there is film to study and not just Coaches intuitive projections. Of even more portent Lawson is NO DUMMY. He is graduating as an Engineer, not majoring in e.g. PhyEd (i.e. Football).

The thing is BB believes in drafting football players who have produced, not athletes who might.

That was Bobby Grier's gig.

The results are pretty conclusive.

BB hasn't failed with #1, because he takes guys who are proven producing football players and solid citizens. Amongst the three linebackers, I would expect BB to take Carpenter, Greenway and then Lawson, in that order.

But come the 29th, all our prognostication will likely turn to drivel as he selects a Defensive lineman, that falls to him on the basis he's just to valuable to miss, even if he doesn't need him immediately, say Rodrique Wright.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Too Bad...

Great thread, great posts. I'd love to hear BB's take on this discussion---undoubtedly he'd have a couple clarifications to make.

So, where do you all think DeMeco Ryans would fit as a Pats LB, if at all? The guy seems like a quintessential Belioli-type personality, but at 6'1' 235, it seems that he could only play ROLB (if that), which seems to be Colvin's for now.

I love Demeco, but he would be a Day2 pick for the Pats cuz he doesn't measure up anywhere except above the neck. Other teams and other schemes value him much more, so he will be long gone... Ike said "...its not the size of the dog in the fight... its the size of the fight in the dog..." There is a slim chance though.