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Ja'Wuan James might lose $10 million because he listened to the player's union

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Sep 12th

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50-yard-line

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Yes but Football athletes are like machines that teams invest millions of dollars into. Their brain and themselves are only part of the investment. Lets me ask you this. Would you feel the same way if a Formula One driver wanted to take their race car home and try to train on his own, or wanted to drive another race division in the offseason? I assume the answer would be no. When you invest that kind of money, there's a part of you that wants to control, or athleast supervise how these players train and work out. A classic example is, in sports science, they know that around 80% of people don't warm up properly, or at all.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but I can understand the team's angle on the topic as well.
I find that ridiculous since professional athletes are expected to train on their own and report to camp in good condition.
 

Deus Irae

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I find that ridiculous since professional athletes are expected to train on their own and report to camp in good condition.
Take this out of the sports context.



Why should McDonald's be liable for an employee who hurts themself offsite, even if they get injured practicing egg cooking, burger cooking, or something work related like that?
 

50-yard-line

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Take this out of the sports context.



Why should McDonald's be liable for an employee who hurts themself offsite, even if they get injured practicing egg cooking, burger cooking, or something work related like that?
How can you take it out of the sports' context without considering that the MacDonald's employee who gets isn't expected to, nor given bonuses for, cooking away from MacDonald's, or that Mac"Donald's pays worker's compensation for such people, which will pay them a sizable portion of their income, or that an injury to a regular employee isn't likely at all to be career ending?

Keep squeezing the golden goose too tightly and it will bite you.
 

Deus Irae

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How can you take it out of the sports' context

Because having it in the sports context has made you miss the obvious. Voluntary offseason work is how you avoid getting injured on your own dime.

A McDonald's employee who has not figured out McDonald's things in an acceptable time will be fired. An NFL player who's too out of shape to be able to do NFL things will be fired. The NFL guy has the added bonus of being able to go do his work under the protective umbrella of the team's insurance by working out at the team facility, if he wants.
 

50-yard-line

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Because having it in the sports context has made you miss the obvious. Voluntary offseason work is how you avoid getting injured on your own dime.

A McDonald's employee who has not figured out McDonald's things in an acceptable time will be fired. An NFL player who's too out of shape to be able to do NFL things will be fired. The NFL guy has the added bonus of being able to go do his work under the protective umbrella of the team's insurance by working out at the team facility, if he wants.
Here: I was working as a financial analyst in Concord.

I hurt my back playing hockey. Didn't know it until the following Monday when i bent over at a filing cabinet and couldn't stand back up.

I had short term disability from the company, which paid me in FULL, so I collected a check for months while rehabbing (I couldn't even walk more than a few steps at a time).

I met with them at my request to learn my options because the doctors had finally agreed I needed surgery. They asked why I didn't have a lawyer - they thought I was going to sue them for getting hurt at work. I told them the first time I realized I was hurt was there, sure, but it had certainly happened at hockey and so, no, I wasn't about to sue them.

Even though the STD had run out, the company told me to go get the surgery and they kept the checks coming until I could return.

So here I was, a mid-level analyst working hard and rising in the ranks, but certainly no one irreplaceable, and they treated me like, you know, a human being.

In things like the NFL and other sports, or other places like publishing (which is going to collapse), the "talent" is exclusive.

IF the guy was working out to be better at his job, which is not in question here, the better choice by the Broncos would be to pay him as if he had been injured at their facility. Things like this may well matter in terms of picking up free agents, for example.
 

Deus Irae

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Here: I was working as a financial analyst in Concord.

I hurt my back playing hockey. Didn't know it until the following Monday when i bent over at a filing cabinet and couldn't stand back up.

I had short term disability from the company, which paid me in FULL, so I collected a check for months while rehabbing (I couldn't even walk more than a few steps at a time).

I met with them at my request to learn my options because the doctors had finally agreed I needed surgery. They asked why I didn't have a lawyer - they thought I was going to sue them for getting hurt at work. I told them the first time I realized I was hurt was there, sure, but it had certainly happened at hockey and so, no, I wasn't about to sue them.

Even though the STD had run out, the company told me to go get the surgery and they kept the checks coming until I could return.

So here I was, a mid-level analyst working hard and rising in the ranks, but certainly no one irreplaceable, and they treated me like, you know, a human being.

In things like the NFL and other sports, or other places like publishing (which is going to collapse), the "talent" is exclusive.

IF the guy was working out to be better at his job, which is not in question here, the better choice by the Broncos would be to pay him as if he had been injured at their facility. Things like this may well matter in terms of picking up free agents, for example.
NFL teams sometmes pay for guys who get injured away from the facilities, and sometimes do not. It generally depends on how the injury happened.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

NFLers who attend 'high-risk' events face no pay


You're arguing that what an individual company might choose to do in one specific example should, for some bizarre reason, be the standard for sports teams with all players, as an override to the freely bargained CBA. But that's crazy talk.


Now, if you want to argue that the NFLPA is garbage, and this is an example of that, you'll find me much more receptive to your position.
 

Vindicate

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
I will say, the NFLPA has seemed to be an ineffectual union given their concessions on numerous occasions, and a good union rep would be hammering **** like this home. Relative to all the major sports, the NFLPA seems the weakest.

I think unions are vital, I have nothing against em. That's why I can confidently say the (modern) NFLPA has never given me a reason to believe they know how to organize their workers in any meaningful fashion. It starts with keeping players educated, as the more educated they are, the more they know what to fight for when negotiations are back on the table. And the more they'll have to stand on in case of a strike (personal health and resources.)
 

moosekill

In the Starting Line-Up
The union agreed to voluntary workouts. The union tried to strong arm the owners and say we are going to boycott these workouts. The owners say, but we set up these workouts so you would train the best way possible in the best facilities with the best training staff we can provide. The union says screw you we don’t have to come and we can train just as well at home. The player goes home and gets hurt. The team says that is too bad.
 

dreighver

In the Starting Line-Up
Yes but Football athletes are like machines that teams invest millions of dollars into. Their brain and themselves are only part of the investment. Lets me ask you this. Would you feel the same way if a Formula One driver wanted to take their race car home and try to train on his own, or wanted to drive another race division in the offseason? I assume the answer would be no. When you invest that kind of money, there's a part of you that wants to control, or athleast supervise how these players train and work out. A classic example is, in sports science, they know that around 80% of people don't warm up properly, or at all.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but I can understand the team's angle on the topic as well.

We're talking about a piece of automotive equipment that exists entirely independent of the employee, while in the other case, we're talking about physical, living bodies of human beings who have families, loved-ones, and use said bodies for things other than playing football. A F1 car is literally owned by the team and exists entirely independent of the driver, and these cars are extraordinarily expensive to maintain, tune, test, and repair. The cars are also not autonomous and alive. A human body and a car are not the same thing.

What if a player got injured outside of team facilities playing with their kid - should their salary be voided in that case? How does one make a distinction between "official" training/workouts and "unofficial" training/workouts? What if a player takes a 2-week vacation during the offseason - can they effectively not exercise during that vacation because they may get injured away from team facilities?

NFL players aren't pieces of equipment for literal owners to stow in hangars and dust-off when the season rolls around.
 
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dreighver

In the Starting Line-Up
The union agreed to voluntary workouts. The union tried to strong arm the owners and say we are going to boycott these workouts. The owners say, but we set up these workouts so you would train the best way possible in the best facilities with the best training staff we can provide. The union says screw you we don’t have to come and we can train just as well at home. The player goes home and gets hurt. The team says that is too bad.

1. "Voluntary" is a critical word here.

2. I don't care what the team "says", they can "say" whatever they want. The bottom line is that they signed a contract guaranteeing money to one of their employees, and now want to walk that back because said employee (while training to improve their job performance) was injured at a location outside of a team facility. To void a contract because of the location where a real and legitimate injury occurred is nothing more than manipulation and greed. Show some moral fiber and honor the contract you signed and agreed to.
 

Deus Irae

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1. "Voluntary" is a critical word here.

2. I don't care what the team "says", they can "say" whatever they want. The bottom line is that they signed a contract guaranteeing money to one of their employees, and now want to walk that back because said employee (while training to improve their job performance) was injured at a location outside of a team facility. To void a contract because of the location where a real and legitimate injury occurred is nothing more than manipulation and greed. Show some moral fiber and honor the contract you signed and agreed to.
So you don't care about CBAs and contracts, and you think owners should be screwed regardless of who's contractually on the hook.

Interesting theory (not really), but contract law doesn't generally work that way.
 

moosekill

In the Starting Line-Up
It is like car insurance. Collision insurance is voluntary, but if you drive into a telephone pole and don’t have it you aren’t getting paid. You don’t have to train with your team, but if you don’t and you get hurt, you aren’t getting paid.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
Does anyone have the CBA reference? It’s hard to tell these days what’s true in Florio’s reporting because he’s become part of the league’s propaganda division.

I tried to find the passage in the CBA and thought there would be a very unambiguous statement clarifying the new injury standards. Maybe I missed it, but all I found was a fairly vague clause. It doesn’t specify that injuries occurring outside of team facilities aren’t treated the same way as in the past but seems to just provide a guarantee that they’re covered, no matter what, if it occurs on-site. This alone (if this is all there is) would seem pretty weak to me to overturn all past precedent because of this wording...but again, I may be overlooking something else or misinterpreting it.

1620444506701.png


There’s no reference to it here:


There’s no reference to it here:

1620444277053.png
 

lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
NFLPA has never really been a good union to me. They give up a whole lot of concessions, usually at the expense of the lower-paid players. 17 game season is something they agreed to when they had no business doing so.
It's actually the other way around. The 1-3 year wash outs consistently make more money as they are a majority of the union. It's all the longterm benefits that the vets get screwed out on because they always have to drop their pants for more money for the guys at the bottom.
 

woolster22

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One of the NFLPA's largest issues is lack of pay for college athletes. You can't blame kids not being willing to take their first bite of the pie after being forced to perform for the ridiculous NCAA system as a barrier to entry.

If the NFLPA really wants to fix things, they start having conversations with the NBA and NHL (far less likely given the overseas talent pool in NHL, but I digress) and widespread walk-outs to protest student-athlete pay along with whatever other individual grievances each various league raises. The league's decided to operate for a reason despite a pandemnic and empty stands ($ for those wondering). The players are ultimately the product we watch.

It would help not only far more student athletes (the value of the edu should also be questioned at this point. Even at face value without bogus class attendances, etc. The value of the actual education provided is pathetic, but thats another argument), it puts the freshly minted pros on better financial footing. It would also give college players a reason to finish degrees, possibly removing doubt/uncertainty about post-career opportunities. If it starts costing league owners and media execs, the Gov't will hear from their owners and start writing legislation. NCAA is another one of those institutions on the way out. Kind of like wired ISP's/telco's, but I again digress.

The reality is most careers are too short in the NFL. They either need to address the desperation inherent within the college-pro absurdity or weight votes by years played/contracted (and we know how well fractional votes would play out in this libtard hysteria we call society, man would that be fun to watch, it'll never happen). All the other leagues have minor leagues. The NFL has the practice squad and 53 man rosters. Most guys only stay for or year or two. What's in the best interest of tomorrow will never win out over today.

If the Bronco's don't pay (and they don't have to. if there is no reason to doubt it was while working out in a reasonable manner - and not @Deus Irae ******** litigious definition of reasonable - imo should), the players need to strike. Not sure they'll have an opportunity with a more clear "wtf kind of system are we really in" occurrence than this.
 

Betterthanmost

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
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