It Looks Like No Long term Deal between Pats and Welker

[MoLewisrocks]

I will admit that I used a poor choice of words.

What is clearly glaring is your failure to admit that for multiple reasons, WW compared to the regular season, is not as productive in the playoffs.

Oddly neither are a lot of players on this team (and probably a few others). Maybe it's the nature of the beast. Overall Gronkowski and Hernandez weren't as productive in the playoffs as in the regular season. Probably some reasons for that. Otherwise...we could just blame Brady...with maybe a nod to his metaphors. Now there's an entire unit that collectively isn't as productive in the playoffs that possibly goes a long way towards explaining lots of things.

:bricks:

 

[Huckleberry1]

Welker's not going to get $11+ million from anybody other than the Patriots for one year. If he balks, his new bride will drag him down there by his left ear and simply say, "Wes, honey...Sign the friggin' offer sheet!"

If she drags him anywhere it should be to the NFLPA offices to file a grievance against the Patriots for violating the CBA rules on the tag. The Patriots never negotiated in good faith and he should be declared an unrestricted free agent immediately. Then we will see what he gets, my guess is that it would be over 50 million for 5 with at least half guaranteed.

 

[Steve102]

If she drags him anywhere it should be to the NFLPA offices to file a grievance against the Patriots for violating the CBA rules on the tag. The Patriots never negotiated in good faith and he should be declared an unrestricted free agent immediately. Then we will see what he gets, my guess is that it would be over 50 million for 5 with at least half guaranteed.

There will be no grievances filed IMHO.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Oddly neither are a lot of players on this team (and probably a few others). Maybe it's the nature of the beast. Overall Gronkowski and Hernandez weren't as productive in the playoffs as in the regular season. Probably some reasons for that. Otherwise...we could just blame Brady...with maybe a nod to his metaphors. Now there's an entire unit that collectively isn't as productive in the playoffs that possibly goes a long way towards explaining lots of things.

:bricks:

Oddly, since 2009 AHern or Gronk didn't

Blow their knee prior to the Baltimore debacle

Provide an insubordinate "feet" interview prior to the Jets division game that required disciplinary action on the all critical first drive.

Drop the pass that would seal a SB XLVI victory.

Go awry as veterans because like they weren't veterans.

 

[condon84]

Compared to what - how he didn't exactly light it up in the playoffs before Welker was on the team? LOL

Tom Brady Playoffs Game Log - Pro-Football-Reference.com

The poster I responded to compared Welker's regular season stats to his playoff stats. Welker's stats are directly related to how Brady performs. Brady has had great regular seasons statistically the past 5 years, but his playoff performance hasn't lived up to this regular season performance.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

If she drags him anywhere it should be to the NFLPA offices to file a grievance against the Patriots for violating the CBA rules on the tag. The Patriots never negotiated in good faith and he should be declared an unrestricted free agent immediately. Then we will see what he gets, my guess is that it would be over 50 million for 5 with at least half guaranteed.

It's a little late for that given the process. But if they tag him next year and then drag their heels thereafter including not negotiating in good faith in the interim (Jan-Mar), it would present a point of leverage for the Welker camp to at least threaten to persue come April. It's tougher to land a max deal once the early FA money starts to dry up. But it's not impossible. And while he wasn't tagged at the time, this is actually the card Branch's agent played in 2006. Belichick walked into it by granting them permission to test the market because he didn't think there was one. Turned out there was 2...And both of them were willing to meet Branch's contract demands. Belichick still refused to budge so Branch's agent filed a good faith grievance and just the threat of being told he was wrong and being forced to make a deal (arbitration precedent) led BB to opt to trade Branch to the highest bidder.

In Welker's case the potential outcome would be vacating the tag. And this team would not want to be involved in that sort of precedent. It really gauled him and he tried to file a counter claim against the team who started it IHO, the JETS, but the case was dismissed. Tannenbaum would certainly be giddy at the possibility of being a thorn in Bill's side on another receiver grievance. Especially since Wes has connections on his team who possibly would relish actually landing him, too.

I'd really hate to see it come to that, and Welker probably would too. But playing nice didn't work out for him so...

 

[Kontradiction]

Oddly, since 2009 AHern or Gronk didn't

Blow their knee prior to the Baltimore debacle

So you're holding that against Welker? Really? On top of that, he should have never been in that game. Neither should Brady. That was the coaching staff's fault for leaving him in a pointless game in which a playoff spot was already wrapped up.

Provide an insubordinate "feet" interview prior to the Jets division game that required disciplinary action on the all critical first drive.

That didn't require disciplinary action. At least not to the extent of holding him out the first drive. That was another bad decision by Belichick. The disciplinary action should have been in house and not included in a divisional playoff game against an opponent who knew us better than anybody else in the dance.

Drop the pass that would seal a SB XLVI victory.

He should have caught it, but you shouldn't ignore the throw that was off as well. Witholding additional moneys on a new contract because of one drop while ignoring everything else Welker has done for the organization is a complete failure in critical thinking (par for the course for you) and is just bad business.

Go awry as veterans because like they weren't veterans.

What?

How come we never saw these complaints from you before the contract proceedings?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The poster I responded to compared Welker's regular season stats to his playoff stats. Welker's stats are directly related to how Brady performs. Brady has had great regular seasons statistically the past 5 years, but his playoff performance hasn't lived up to this regular season performance.

Just like Welker and lots of guys. Chicken and egg argument at best. Maybe something else is to blame like the odds of facing stiffer AFC and NFC competition these days when the second season rolls around. And god knows the OL has seemed to perform much differently when teams who have the horses gameplan with a pressure blueprint to stop the QB.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

So you're holding that against Welker? Really? On top of that, he should have never been in that game. Neither should Brady. That was the coaching staff's fault for leaving him in a pointless game in which a playoff spot was already wrapped up.



That didn't require disciplinary action. At least not to the extent of holding him out the first drive. That was another bad decision by Belichick. The disciplinary action should have been in house and not included in a divisional playoff game against an opponent who knew us better than anybody else in the dance.



He should have caught it, but you shouldn't ignore the throw that was off as well. Witholding additional moneys on a new contract because of one drop while ignoring everything else Welker has done for the organization is a complete failure in critical thinking (par for the course for you) and is just bad business.



What?

How come we never saw these complaints from you before the contract proceedings?

LMFAO

patsfaninpittsburgh holds zero against Welker.

However, patsfaninpittsburgh isn't producing 40+ pages of male bovine dung *********** at patsfans.com over the martyr contract failure.

Nor will patsfaninpittsburgh go imbecile and think the shortcomings since 2009 is the Patriots missing Seymour. (Check the idiot roster and see who would come up with that gem).

Bitter disappointment is understandable. Your female specific anatomy is hurting......badly...OK, understood.

It's also time to let it go.

 

[jason423]

Looking over everyone's summation of that deal it is a 1 year $17.75M guaranteed deal, or a 2 year $17.75M guaranteed deal (see, guaranteed is guaranteed), or it's a 3 year $21.75M deal, although it could be a 4 or 5 year deal worth anywhere from $24-37.75M depending on whether they decide to pay him any unguaranteed salary or he decides to continue playing at a salary discount.

I think Wes would be happy to land the first two or three years of that deal at 32, on top of the $9.5M he is getting for this season. He might even be happy with a lot less. If he catches 110 balls this year, he'll get at least the first 3 years of that deal from someone. Probably with 60% of it guaranteed. Just not going to get it in NE. They had their shot.

Just edited this to reflect the fact that I had the wrong years in my spreadsheet and it affected the valuation:

I think you are misreading a bit the way the numbers would work and how the league values the contracts. The real contract doesnt begin until 2013 for Smith and you have to subtract out the current value since he was set to earn it anyway.

Smiths extension payouts are as follows:

1 Year- $7 million
2 Year- $14 million
3 Year- $21 million
4 Year- $30 million

So the real annual value that comes into play here if using it as a comparable is $7 million a season. The Panthers do have an out in year 2 and Id imagine they will take it. They pushed that option, which is protected, into June, which Im sure was done to take the June 1 benefit of cutting him and taking what I believe will be a $5 million cap hit in 2014 and $4 million one in 2015, though Im a little hazy on how these late option deals work and it may be $6 million and $3 million.

His guaranteed take home is $17.75 million which is all new, but the reality is he would be earning an additional $10 million to play 1 more years on the team and hold his rights through free agency the following season.

Welker is different in that his whole deal is guaranteed this season, but if you extend the same concept to him as Smiths his take home would basically be around $20-$21 million from 2012-2013 or about $25 million thru 2014. Considering the Pats hold his rights and dont need the cap relief they can play year by year and have no dead cap on the backend by playing the tag game.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Brady, aside from the Denver game last postseason, hasn't exactly been lighting it up in the playoffs since Welker has been on the team.

He didn't light it up before WW either.

What he did have was a Super Bowl defense and a comittment to the running game that was able to get yards when it needed to.

 

[Deus Irae]

My argument sucks to you because you fail to see the larger picture.

No, your argument sucks because your argument sucks.

Since Welker's arrival? If you want to throw Brady under the bus for sub-standard playoff performances than you also need to include WW.

Why? First of all, you were the one pinning the "contain" Welker numbers just on Welker, while I was the one talking about other players affecting his numbers. Second, as we saw in that Baltimore game, Brady's struggles, such as they are, aren't because of Welker.

Seems to me that you think 8 catches for 50 yards and 1 first down is better than 7 catches 59 yards and 4 first downs.

It depends on the context of the game.

Considering WW's primary value to the offense is to make first downs, he is not productive doing that in the playoffs. That is a fact.

It's not a fact, it's your opinion, and that opinion is a really silly one.

 

[Boomer B]

LMFAO

patsfaninpittsburgh holds zero against Welker.

However, patsfaninpittsburgh isn't producing 40+ pages of male bovine dung *********** at patsfans.com over the martyr contract failure.

Nor will patsfaninpittsburgh go imbecile and think the shortcomings since 2009 is the Patriots missing Seymour. (Check the idiot roster and see who would come up with that gem).

Bitter disappointment is understandable. Your female specific anatomy is hurting......badly...OK, understood.

It's also time to let it go.

Jimmy's got some new moves

Jimmy's new in town

Jimmy is pretty sweet on you

JIMMY'S GONNA GET YOU KRAMER!!. HANDS OFF JIMMY!

 

[RobertWeathers]

No, your argument sucks because your argument sucks. .

I see. Your position is that defenses can't contain Welker and have never demonstrated that while I have. Your counter-arguement sucks because you have zero data to support it.

Why? First of all, you were the one pinning the "contain" Welker numbers just on Welker, while I was the one talking about other players affecting his numbers. Second, as we saw in that Baltimore game, Brady's struggles, such as they are, aren't because of Welker.

Prove this. Watch the game film and count how many times WW was chipped comming off the line and faced coverage above him. I'm certain TB has made some bad throws, the line did a crappy job and the opposing D made great plays. You are implying that WW is never at fault or not succeptible to a scheme or player containing or limiting his effectiveness which is absolutely ridiculous. I never knew WW had a red cape with an "S" on it....

It depends on the context of the game..

It sure does. I never implied that it was all WWs fault. I have implied that in the playoffs, he is not as productive.

It's not a fact, it's your opinion, and that opinion is a really silly one.

WW's body of work in the playoffs tell use he has less yards per play, less YAC and less 1st dows are an opinion? LOL.

 

[Kontradiction]

LMFAO

patsfaninpittsburgh holds zero against Welker.

However, patsfaninpittsburgh isn't producing 40+ pages of male bovine dung *********** at patsfans.com over the martyr contract failure.

Nor will patsfaninpittsburgh go imbecile and think the shortcomings since 2009 is the Patriots missing Seymour. (Check the idiot roster and see who would come up with that gem).

Bitter disappointment is understandable. Your female specific anatomy is hurting......badly...OK, understood.

It's also time to let it go.

All of this is relevant to the conversation at hand how, exactly? At least try to form a cogent counter argument instead of some irrelevant half-witten counterpoints laced with lame insult attempts befitting an 11 year old. Either that or get out of the thread and let the men handle the business here.

 

[robbomango]

I see. Your position is that defenses can't contain Welker and have never demonstrated that while I have. Your counter-arguement sucks because you have zero data to support it.




Prove this. Watch the game film and count how many times WW was chipped comming off the line and faced coverage above him. I'm certain TB has made some bad throws, the line did a crappy job and the opposing D made great plays. You are implying that WW is never at fault or not succeptible to a scheme or player containing or limiting his effectiveness which is absolutely ridiculous. I never knew WW had a red cape with an "S" on it....

Now you know!:rocker:

 

[RobertWeathers]

Now you know!:rocker:

AWESOME!!!! :rocker:

Good-natured humor is needed in this forum. Including myself, we all just get so passionate and worked about this team and the players......

 

[patfanken]

..... and next on Eyewitness News, a breaking story .....Wes Welker STILL doesn't have a long term contract.....and General Francisco Franco....is STILL dead.

I know its important to some people to be the one to get the "last word", but Isn't it time to table this discussion until the next time its even vaguely relevant to THIS season, and that would be next FEBRUARY!

 

[Kontradiction]

..... and next on Eyewitness News, a breaking story .....Wes Welker STILL doesn't have a long term contract.....and General Francisco Franco....is STILL dead.

I know its important to some people to be the one to get the "last word", but Isn't it time to table this discussion until the next time its even vaguely relevant to THIS season, and that would be next FEBRUARY!

Yeah, well... you're wrong.

 

[condon84]

Just like Welker and lots of guys. Chicken and egg argument at best. Maybe something else is to blame like the odds of facing stiffer AFC and NFC competition these days when the second season rolls around. And god knows the OL has seemed to perform much differently when teams who have the horses gameplan with a pressure blueprint to stop the QB.

So you think Brady has performed as well in the playoffs as he has in the regular season the past 5 years?