Is a pass rush specialist worth a top 40 pick?

[cstjohn17]

This bubbled up from other threads, but the basic premise is that some players may be too small to play fulltime in the Patriots scheme but are gifted pass rushers.

Think Clay Matthews, Elvis D.

Is a pass rush specialist worth a top 40 pick?

 

[hughthehand]

I answered no. IMO a pass rush specialist means someone who is only going to play in passing situations. Specialties like this can be found in the later rounds or by free agents like TBC.

Now if the question is... is a DL or OLB that is an all around stud and can also get to the passer? Well then , Yes it is

The guys we have that play every down need to be able to Cover, Set the edge, and rush the passer. A specific player that just does one thing is easy to scheme against. Having guys with more rounded skills means more variables for the offense to worry about.

Top 40 picks should be able to do it all.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

When Kyle Arrington is one of our designated rushers . . .

 

[Sciz]

When the person making the picks drafts solely on "value," and stresses the ability to play three (or four) downs in his high picks, I'll say no.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I think TBC is the closest BB will ever come to having a pure pass rush specialist on the team.

Which is why I consider guys like Kerrigan, Dareus and CB Harris of Miami, Patriot type players, because they are also committed to playing the run.

Once Kerrigan learns to reead an opposing offense to know before snap if a play is pass or run, then he is going to be the ideal Patriot type OLB. He has that sudden first step to get into the backfield on passing plays, but he can also crash the OT and set the hard edge on running plays.

I think Harris of Miami had almost 80 tackles or so this past season, much of them from coming up and forcing on running plays.

And Dareus is just a pure 3-4 beast.

I would take Kerrigan with the Raiders first round pick without hesitation. Although I might try to move down a few spots first.

 

[fester]

When the person making the picks drafts solely on "value," and stresses the ability to play three (or four) downs in his high picks, I'll say no.

Disagree if we are talking about a Top 40 pick. If we were talking about a top 25 pick, I would have no problem with your statement though. BB has a demonstrated history of using mid to high second rounders to seek high end specialists.

• Ron Brace was a top-40 pick who was drafted to be a two down player. So far, it looks like this is a reasonable gamble that is paying off.
  
• Bethel Johnson (@#45) was a mid-second rounder who was drafted to be a big play returner with the hope that he could develop into Mike Wallace, but his primary initial role was as a specialist. That gamble failed.

If there is a player who looks like he could play 25% to 35% of the defensive snaps in his first two years on the roster with the potential for more as his rookie deal matures, AND that player can do something that no one else on the roster can do or at a level that no one else on the roster can match, I can see a pure pass rusher being drafted at the tail end of the first round or early second with the hopes that he can collect 10+ sacks, 15 to 20 good pressures, a few flash plays (strip sacks, fumble recoveries etc) while the Pats coaches and conditioning staff work on converting him into an 80% of the snaps player by Year 3.

 

[cstjohn17]

I think TBC is the closest BB will ever come to having a pure pass rush specialist on the team.

Purely based on my opinion and my bias, the problem with TBC is that he sucks. He doesn't play special teams and only very limitted pass rush moves.

 

[dryheat44]

For the 2011 Patriots? Yes, absolutely. Much like the nickel cornerback and 3rd down RB, the rush linebacker has evolved in importance so much that it warrants a first down pick for a team whose one glaring weakness is lack of pass rush.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Disagree if we are talking about a Top 40 pick. If we were talking about a top 25 pick, I would have no problem with your statement though. BB has a demonstrated history of using mid to high second rounders to seek high end specialists.

• Ron Brace was a top-40 pick who was drafted to be a two down player. So far, it looks like this is a reasonable gamble that is paying off.
  
• Bethel Johnson (@#45) was a mid-second rounder who was drafted to be a big play returner with the hope that he could develop into Mike Wallace, but his primary initial role was as a specialist. That gamble failed.

If there is a player who looks like he could play 25% to 35% of the defensive snaps in his first two years on the roster with the potential for more as his rookie deal matures, AND that player can do something that no one else on the roster can do or at a level that no one else on the roster can match, I can see a pure pass rusher being drafted at the tail end of the first round or early second with the hopes that he can collect 10+ sacks, 15 to 20 good pressures, a few flash plays (strip sacks, fumble recoveries etc) while the Pats coaches and conditioning staff work on converting him into an 80% of the snaps player by Year 3.

This.

.....

 

[MaineMan]

I voted "no" and my problem with is that I see the Pats as currently having only two well-rounded OLBs - Cunningham and Ninkovich, and I'd rate Ninkovich as pretty much a very good reserve/rotational guy. Seems to me that our first priority wrt OLB would be getting a third well-rounded OLB with the potential to be a #1 guy over Ninkovich. A guy who can scream off the edge without being an enormous liability against the run - someone to replace TBC (who's getting older) - would be a lower priority.

Similarly, getting an RDE (to play opposite Ty Warren or Deaderick) who can command enough attention to free up interior rushers as well as edge rushers and blitzers would be a higher priority.

But it really comes down to how BB rates the prospects and their respective market value. If he's got an OLB prospect rated as high as Cunningham that he knows he can snag in the late-second or in the third, maybe he does take a shot at a "specialist" in the early second, though there's also likely to be competition from BPA at other positions in the early second as well..

 

[ahmed]

Absolutely, this is a passing league and a rush specialist will play at least 50% of the snaps and they have so much impact.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Purely based on my opinion and my bias, the problem with TBC is that he sucks. He doesn't play special teams and only very limitted pass rush moves.

Very harsh indeed!

So you are saying that San Fran knows something about him that BB doesn't?

 

[NewFeep]

I voted yes, yes and YES!

 

[patchick]

Since we've never seen one...what would a "pass rush specialist" look like in this defense, exactly? Can somebody suggest a typical lineup/configuration? Or a team with a similar defensive philosophy and personnel that has had good success giving a lot of snaps to a pass rush specialist?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Since we've never seen one...what would a "pass rush specialist" look like in this defense, exactly? Can somebody suggest a typical lineup/configuration? Or a team with a similar defensive philosophy and personnel that has had good success giving a lot of snaps to a pass rush specialist?

Just a thought ...

 

[Snake Eyes]

Since we've never seen one...what would a "pass rush specialist" look like in this defense, exactly? Can somebody suggest a typical lineup/configuration? Or a team with a similar defensive philosophy and personnel that has had good success giving a lot of snaps to a pass rush specialist?

My choice to be reincarnated:

 

[mgteich]

You should inform our special teams coach that Banta-Cain no longer plays on special teams.

Purely based on my opinion and my bias, the problem with TBC is that he sucks. He doesn't play special teams and only very limitted pass rush moves.

 

[cstjohn17]

You should inform our special teams coach that Banta-Cain no longer plays on special teams.

1) Special teams - See breakdowns below, no sign of TBC. He may sneak onto the odd unit but is basically not a factor.
From Detoit Game
Closer look at top special teamers - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Colts
Looking at core special teamers - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Steelers
White, Fletcher, Brown on Big 4 - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Jets
Who plays most on special teams? - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Jets Coverage Units
Closer look at coverage units - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

 

[cstjohn17]

Since we've never seen one...what would a "pass rush specialist" look like in this defense, exactly? Can somebody suggest a typical lineup/configuration? Or a team with a similar defensive philosophy and personnel that has had good success giving a lot of snaps to a pass rush specialist?

Great, now we have to bring logic and facts into the discussion...

Really is just envision a better TBC or someone like Harrison in Pittsburg, Dumervil in Denver. These are players that are just too small to fit the Patriots typical OLB mold but are highly productive especially in passing situations.

 

[dryheat44]

Since we've never seen one...what would a "pass rush specialist" look like in this defense, exactly? Can somebody suggest a typical lineup/configuration? Or a team with a similar defensive philosophy and personnel that has had good success giving a lot of snaps to a pass rush specialist?

Oh, I would assume that Belichick's many pursuits of Jason Taylor over the years would serve as some indication what he's looking for. I have no doubt that outside linebacker for the Cowboys would be another prototype.

Of course, I'm assuming that "Pass rush specialist" does not imply that they have zero other skills.