If you didn't notice - Wes Welker....another double-digit reception game

[fgssand]

FWIW, the exact wording of the rule is: "After that date, the player may sign only a one-year Player Contract with his Prior Club for that season, and such Player Contract may not be extended until after the Club’s last regular season game of that League Year."

I don't know if that has been taken to mean that teams can't even discuss new contracts, but on its face, it only seems to prohibit an actual contract being filed.

You are correct sir, given that well then, maybe, just maybe there is an agreement and it is announced one week from today. Then we can all relax and focus on other matters going into the playoffs.

 

[Deus Irae]

Don't know if anyone else was subjected to the Moron that is Gresh on the post game but I was stuck in the car for his ear bleed inducing performance...

Gresch is supposed to be a football guy, and he played the game in college, yet he's more reliably wrong about football than anyone on either station, when he tries to break it down regarding individuals. You can't take him seriously.

 

[Patsrock]

Gresch is supposed to be a football guy, and he played the game in college, yet he's more reliably wrong about football than anyone on either station, when he tries to break it down regarding individuals. You can't take him seriously.

Agreed. I am huge hockey fan and he is even worse with Hockey. Also I am worried when Gil leaves Tanguay gets the PbP job and Gresh becomes the Pre and Post game full host. I have to listen to most games on the radio and if that becomes the team it will be terrible,

 

[kudzif]

Wes catches a lot of passes but look at his average its not that great. To win superbowls you need downfield plays like Manningham which Wes can never do. So while he is a key contributor he is not indispensable next year when he is gone the offense will move on and you will all hardly remember him.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Wes catches a lot of passes but look at his average its not that great. To win superbowls you need downfield plays like Manningham which Wes can never do. So while he is a key contributor he is not indispensable next year when he is gone the offense will move on and you will all hardly remember him.

You know they actually do televise the games. Someday you should watch one.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Wes catches a lot of passes but look at his average its not that great. To win superbowls you need downfield plays like Manningham which Wes can never do. So while he is a key contributor he is not indispensable next year when he is gone the offense will move on and you will all hardly remember him.

Welker caught the game winning TD yesterday, your post is a great example of the epic fail.

 

[JackBauer]

Wes catches a lot of passes but look at his average its not that great. To win superbowls you need downfield plays like Manningham which Wes can never do. So while he is a key contributor he is not indispensable next year when he is gone the offense will move on and you will all hardly remember him.

I am going to be charitable and assume you are trolling.

 

[patfanken]

And before anyone goes there, if you think Gresh has a point then you're a moron too. This team invested more than $20M per in the TE position this season and without an elite midget slot receiver they would have been lucky to win their division by default unless of course they got Brady killed in the process. I'm a lot more concerned with what they have tied up in that position than I ever was that they might have somehow mistakenly overvalued Welker between 2012-2015 and lived to regret it.

Mo, you made your point about Gresh, which I agree with. He is a moron. You make a valid argument for resigning Welker, which I don't agree as much (I want to sign him, but not for $9-10MM/yr), but we can argue that another time.

However for someone who is killing a guy for not knowing how the cap works, you make a similar error in your last paragraph. The Pats have NOT invested $20M/yr in their TE's, at least not in the first 4 years of their new contracts. In fact, according to Jason, Gronk/Hernandez's COMBINED cap number in 2013 is around $6MM, and in 2014 is $10MM.

As to Welker, I don't know why everyone keeps pointing to his numbers. The Pats are paying him $9.3MM this year. Guys who get paid that much are SUPPOSED to put up those kind of numbers. And as I've said many times before. Welker's next contract has NOTHING to do with the stellar numbers he's put up to date. They have EVERYTHING to do with the production the Pats can expect him to put up going forward.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Mo, you made your point about Gresh, which I agree with. He is a moron. You make a valid argument for resigning Welker, which I don't agree as much (I want to sign him, but not for $9-10MM/yr), but we can argue that another time.

However for someone who is killing a guy for not knowing how the cap works, you make a similar error in your last paragraph. The Pats have NOT invested $20M/yr in their TE's, at least not in the first 4 years of their new contracts. In fact, according to Jason, Gronk/Hernandez's COMBINED cap number in 2013 is around $6MM, and in 2014 is $10MM.

As to Welker, I don't know why everyone keeps pointing to his numbers. The Pats are paying him $9.3MM this year. Guys who get paid that much are SUPPOSED to put up those kind of numbers. And as I've said many times before. Welker's next contract has NOTHING to do with the stellar numbers he's put up to date. They have EVERYTHING to do with the production the Pats can expect him to put up going forward.

If you won't pay what he is worth then you don't want to sign him. BTW, you were right, Edelman easily replaced him.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I sure hope Brady will take 3 million a year on his next deal because you don't pay for past work and he will be old.

 

[Huckleberry1]

As to Welker, I don't know why everyone keeps pointing to his numbers. The Pats are paying him $9.3MM this year. Guys who get paid that much are SUPPOSED to put up those kind of numbers. And as I've said many times before. Welker's next contract has NOTHING to do with the stellar numbers he's put up to date. They have EVERYTHING to do with the production the Pats can expect him to put up going forward.

Because past performance is the best predictor of future performance, and while many here have been saying his performance was going to fall off for the last 3 years he just keeps repeating it year after year. he has earned a big contract and should get one. Anyone who doesn't think he is worth 10 million a year knows absolutely nothing about football, his production has shown year after year that he is a HOF caliber player and those players deserve the big contracts they get.


Come back and make the same argument when Brady is up again Ken, see how that flies.

 

[DocHoliday]

Im simply worried that locking up Wes leaves us with nothing for the rest of the team.

We desperately need a deep physical receiver. It's how you beat the Giants 49ers of this world as we saw yesterday. Can we rely on a rookie? Probably not.

 

[patfanken]

Because past performance is the best predictor of future performance, and while many here have been saying his performance was going to fall off for the last 3 years he just keeps repeating it year after year. he has earned a big contract and should get one. Anyone who doesn't think he is worth 10 million a year knows absolutely nothing about football, his production has shown year after year that he is a HOF caliber player and those players deserve the big contracts they get.


Come back and make the same argument when Brady is up again Ken, see how that flies.

Ivan, your unmitigated love affair with Wes Welker is well documented. I'm sure if you had the power, you would simply trot out a blank check and have him put in what ever numbers he wants regardless of the consequences to the rest of the team. You don't have to post a response to everyone who doesn't feel the same as you.

I'm sure you feel his contribution is irreplaceable. Just like everyone thought Gronk was irreplaceable. . The fact is that this offense will survive and flourish missing a single part or two. Would we be better WITH Gronk than without him. Of course we would. Yet without him we won 4 of 5 games and the only one we lost we scored 34 points

Tom Brady is the only irreplaceable part of this offense at this point, and even when he was gone for a year the offense was very productive (5th best in the NFL that year). Has anyone ever considered that this team and organization has something to do with a players' production. Look at what happened to players like Branch and Cassell after they left.

You miss the point completely. NO ONE wants Wes Welker to leave. NO ONE! But...there is a point, a price point, where keeping him will do more damage to the rest of the team, than the value he brings to the field. Even you have to acknowledge this. You and I can speculate what this number is. The Pats front office KNOWS it.

I would just wish you would recognize that whatever they pay Welker will have an effect on what they can do or not do in many other areas of the team. No player is signed in a vacuum. For every dollar that is given to Welker their is one less dollar for everyone else. THAT's a fact.

 

[randomk1]

Wes catches a lot of passes but look at his average its not that great. To win superbowls you need downfield plays like Manningham which Wes can never do. So while he is a key contributor he is not indispensable next year when he is gone the offense will move on and you will all hardly remember him.

If we were going to win SB42 then Wes was the MVP. Fail.

 

[DocHoliday]

If we were going to win SB42 then Wes was the MVP. Fail.

He was referring to 46, and in that Woodhead would have won it.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Ivan, your unmitigated love affair with Wes Welker is well documented. I'm sure if you had the power, you would simply trot out a blank check and have him put in what ever numbers he wants regardless of the consequences to the rest of the team. You don't have to post a response to everyone who doesn't feel the same as you.

.

Ken, your unmitigated disdain for Welker and his abilities and contributions to this team are well documented, i'm sure if you could you would pay him minimum wage so you could give Julian Edelman 8 million a year to "easily replace" him. You really don't have to join into every Welker thread 95% of which are callikng for them to get rid of him.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I

I'm sure you feel his contribution is irreplaceable. Just like everyonsimply trot out a blank check and have him put in what ever numbers he wants regardless of the consequences to the rest of the team. You don't have to post a response to everyone who doesn't feel the same as youe thought Gronk was irreplaceable. . The fact is that this offense will survive and flourish missing a single part or two. Would we be better WITH Gronk than without him. Of course we would. Yet without him we won 4 of 5 games and the only one we lost we scored 34 points

Tom Brady is the only irreplaceable part of this offense at this point, and even when he was gone for a year the offense was very productive (5th best in the NFL that year). Has anyone ever considered that this team and organization has something to do with a players' production. Look at what happened to players like Branch and Cassell after they left.

You miss the point completely. NO ONE wants Wes Welker to leave. NO ONE! But...there is a point, a price point, where keeping him will do more damage to the rest of the team, than the value he brings to the field. Even you have to acknowledge this. You and I can speculate what this number is. The Pats front office KNOWS it.

I would just wish you would recognize that whatever they pay Welker will have an effect on what they can do or not do in many other areas of the team. No player is signed in a vacuum. For every dollar that is given to Welker their is one less dollar for everyone else. THAT's a fact.

No Ken, you miss the point, which is that this is about winning championships, not saving cash for the future cap. The truth is that Brady has about 3-4 more years left to win them their championships for the Brady/Belichick era, and deliberately getting rid of his most productive and reliable weapon when embarking upon that quest is as stupid as it gets. The Patriots waste millions under the cap every season on bad roster decisions, and getting rid of Welker so they will have more leeway to do so makes no sense. Since welker arrived in NE the Patriots have had the most producitve offensive run of any team in NFL history, and now that their defense is finally getting good enough to put them over the top you want to significantly diminish their offense going forward to save 2-3 million dollars a year, and you act like paying a HOF quality player what he deserves will prevent them from re-signing their key players when tagging him, which is a higher cap hit, still allowed them to get key deals done this season, ironically they were the same deals you believed they wouldn't get done if they paid Welker, and got done despite the tag. At most what the Welker deal will keep them from doing is signing a Darius Butler or Braylon Edwards mid season and cutting them a month later.

If Welker's agent wants CJ or Larry Fitzgerald money, 125 million for 8, then you are right, they shouldn't make the deal because it is too much for too long, but if all he wants is 8-10 million a year for 4 years they should do it in a heartbeat, it won't harm them in any way and will allow them to keep the best offense in football as their defense finally becomes good enough to win championships before Brady hangs them up, which to me is the only thing that matters, not being 2.5 million under the cap in November.


And Ken, when you talk about 6 million a year and Edelman easily replacing him don't expect anyone to believe you want him here, because both statements are ludicrous.

And Ken, even though you make me nuts on this topic I still have a high regard for you and hope you have a merry Christmas.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

NOT allowed to to have contract talkss until after the season, that is franchise player rule.

No worries as far as I am concerned, I have no doubt he will be franchised - even though it is very scary to look at money tied up with QB, two TE's and WW. Wes is the best slot receiver we will ever see.

Last point, why is it every single time Wes makes that really tough catch on the left side of the field about 20 yards or so down field, on a ball that certainly could have been thrown better - it brings me back to a certain catch that just wasn't made in a rather big game last year. I can't help going back in time in my mind and reliving it and it simply sucks, I know I am not alone.

Not allowed to sign a long term deal. There is no preclusion to talking contract. In fact they could have signed him to a non tag one year deal at any point up to this week. Although the only reason teams ever do that is to sweeten the pot and often with a no more tags stipulation. Seattle did that with Alexander way back when to grease the skids for an extension before FA opened the following March.

Get therapy. They had multiple other opportunities to seal that deal.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Mo, you made your point about Gresh, which I agree with. He is a moron. You make a valid argument for resigning Welker, which I don't agree as much (I want to sign him, but not for $9-10MM/yr), but we can argue that another time.

However for someone who is killing a guy for not knowing how the cap works, you make a similar error in your last paragraph. The Pats have NOT invested $20M/yr in their TE's, at least not in the first 4 years of their new contracts. In fact, according to Jason, Gronk/Hernandez's COMBINED cap number in 2013 is around $6MM, and in 2014 is $10MM.

As to Welker, I don't know why everyone keeps pointing to his numbers. The Pats are paying him $9.3MM this year. Guys who get paid that much are SUPPOSED to put up those kind of numbers. And as I've said many times before. Welker's next contract has NOTHING to do with the stellar numbers he's put up to date. They have EVERYTHING to do with the production the Pats can expect him to put up going forward.

Cap #'s are an accounting tool. They are fielding a unit that cost them almost $20M in AAV this season (including the myriad of backups they command) and the kids got $20M in signing bonus alone. They are guaranteed between them $34.4M in the first 3. Going forward their AAV alone tops $13M per and exceeds the current tag price for the position.

Past production is a big part of how you gauge future performance. Bill has a saying about what potential is, something you have yet to achieve... We've seen twice as Lloyd pointed out in his own defense what happens when Josh runs a perimeter oriented version of this offense. He isn't going to run that here by simple virtue of the $$$ recently invested at the TE position.

Picture this offense going forward as is absent Welker and you're looking at a 4th seed by default (only because the other three won't get it right enough to challenge for the division anytime soon). Gronk's deal made sense given his buzz and the built in out. Hernandez deal at this juncture doesn't. Imagine what they could have signed him for coming off his third season. Could have saved enough in AAV, cap and cash to extend Woodhead for 2-3 more years...

They could have signed Welker to a 4 year $36M+ deal with $18-20M guaranteed and had the exact same cap hit this season and been in position to squeeze him on remaining unguaranteed salary beginning in 2014 with manageable dead cap if they came to an impass by 2015 when the cap will rise substantially. Now they are looking at paying him $11.4M in cash and cap in 2013 (a total of $21M guaranteed) or 3 times $9-10M with half of it guaranteed ($25M over the same term guaranteed) or walking away from a 32 year old guy who moves the chains and has Brady's back come what may. And he's done that consistently for 6 seasons. No one else not named Brady has done anything nearly that consistently even in the last three seasons. And that includes guys on both sides of the ball (and in all 3 phases of the game...) have been signed to top of the market deals.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Because past performance is the best predictor of future performance, and while many here have been saying his performance was going to fall off for the last 3 years he just keeps repeating it year after year. he has earned a big contract and should get one. Anyone who doesn't think he is worth 10 million a year knows absolutely nothing about football, his production has shown year after year that he is a HOF caliber player and those players deserve the big contracts they get.


Come back and make the same argument when Brady is up again Ken, see how that flies.

He's already beating that drum. Expects Brady to take a bargain deal to facilitate teambuilding (translation allowing them to ink top tier deals with others).