Idle thoughts - the DOMINANT ST's edition

[n6249c]

Bill is the greatest coach I've ever seen, and I'm happier than a pig in slop that he's ours, but he's still just the coach.

Let me repeat myself here. Who or what determines talent? It certainly isn't the draft.

Forget talent. Talent is not what matters.

what matters is performance.

Ask "who or what determines performance?" and then seriously consider how much coaching matters to performance, compared to talent.

Here's an example. Everybody's got a Bill Belichick story:
“Nice block, Gonzalez.” He looked back, and there was no hint of a smile on Belichick’s face. Bill Belichick just kept looking at the field, and in that moment Tony Gonzalez understood. The man had coached him into blocking on special teams in the Pro Bowl.

 

[captain stone]

I kinda figured that little dollop of truth serum might not go down well with some...

 

[Wax Frog]

Now I'm hungry

 

[1960Pats]

Are you talking as far as talent evaluation or more of a macro thing as far a "who is to say what talent is?" type of deal?

Who's to say and how is it determined.

 

[1960Pats]

Forget talent. Talent is not what matters.

what matters is performance.

Ask "who or what determines performance?" and then seriously consider how much coaching matters to performance, compared to talent.

Here's an example. Everybody's got a Bill Belichick story:
“Nice block, Gonzalez.” He looked back, and there was no hint of a smile on Belichick’s face. Bill Belichick just kept looking at the field, and in that moment Tony Gonzalez understood. The man had coached him into blocking on special teams in the Pro Bowl.

I asked because I constantly hear references to the Pats having less talent than teams like the Chargers.

Of course coaching matters, probably more with some players than others. That's why it's up to the players to take that coaching and use it. In your example, if Gonzalez doesn't put Bill's coaching to use that's on Gonzalez the player, not Bill the coach.

As great a coach as Bill is, by his own words he couldn't get the 2009 to play up to their potential.

 

[1960Pats]

I also noticed that happening just before the snap on LA's FG attempt at the end of the half, though I just ass-umed that the Pats were trying to draw them offside in order to make the attempt even longer...

Their ST coach, what's his face, got some recognition.

 

[1960Pats]

More variables than I can list.

There is no definitive on talent because coaches accessing said talent are part of the complex system. Throwing up memes on talent is a way draftniks can sound superior in quoting some subset of those variables (usually AFTER the fact BTW years into their pro football career): statistics like 40 times or catches in college, height or quickness, but intangible aspects of that complexity could have as much, more, or even no bearing on it as well. Coachability, even likability, are factors. Hell, even home life, internal motivation, and friendships/family play a role.

For every "#1 sure-shot" like Trevor Lawrence there is a Ryan Leaf and Rick Mirer too - just as supposedly "talented" (if not more so). Yet something doesn't work - again too many variables in a system so complex no one can accurately predict it. Anyone that says they can is selling you something.

All those factors are why I don't buy the talent observations or get all worked up over where the team drafts.

 

[luuked]

In the first 12-15 years of Bill run here that would be definitely true. Since that the time, the league in its "infinite wisdom" has effectively done its best to marginalize the kicking game until instead of being truly a third of the game, it's now more like about 15% of it.

I am not sure I agree with this.

Yes the league has tried to take the teeth out of a lot of ST plays but I don't think there is any difference in how important STs are now compared to 10 years ago. You don't get that many huge returns on average anymore but the difference in starting position just based on how competent your gunners are can be anything between 5-25 yards.

If anything by trying to deemphasize ST a bit I think some coaches and teams fell into the trap of spending less time working there and opened up opportunities for teams that are dedicated and detail oriented to take advantage of them.

Again, looking at the returns and the blocked FG a lot of it looked like design and not just random luck. Putting Davis and Bethel next to each other inside against the FG was deliberate because they saw something on tape. And this isn't only happening to the Los Angeles Chargers Total Landscaping. It happens to a handful teams every year when they try to cut corners.

Flipping field position and maybe even possession will always have a lot of value for those that can find ways to invest enough time.

 

[patfanken]

I am not I agree with this.

Yes the league has tried to take the teeth out of a lot of ST plays but I don't think there is any difference in how important STs are now compared to 10 years ago. You don't get that many huge returns on average anymore but the difference in starting position just based on how competent your gunners are can be anything between 5-25 yards.

If anything by trying to deemphasize ST a bit I think some coaches and teams fell into the trap of spending less time working there and opened up opportunities for teams that are dedicated and detail oriented to take advantage of them.

Again, looking at the returns and the blocked FG a lot of it looked like design and not just random luck. Putting Davis and Bethel next to each other inside against the FG was deliberate because they saw something on tape. And this isn't only happening to the Los Angeles Chargers Total Landscaping. It happens to a handful teams every year when they try to cut corners.

Flipping field position and maybe even possession will always have a lot of value for those that can find ways to invest enough time.

your points are well taken, AND I do agree that like any part of the game, you do have to do it well and with good players. I recognize that games can be still won or lost in the kicking game. That field position can be affected by a good punt game, etc. HOWEVER, I think we'll have to agree to disagree about the degree to which the NYFL has emasculated the kicking game. There WERE so many more aspects of the kicking game that allowed to let better coaching to take more of an advantage prior to what the league has legislated in all aspects of the kicking game

 

[ctpatsfan77]

a. Raise your hands if you were kind of puzzled when the Pats drafted TWO OT's in the sixth round last April? I think that would have been most of us, right? NOW raise your hands if you are not surprised to see BOTH of those players (Onwenu and Herron) playing major roles at this point of the season. ANNNND that would none of us. . Now this 2020 draft class has taken a LOT of crap, mostly because of the absence of ANY production coming from our 3rd round TE's and PS kicker. BUT at this point of the season we are seeing MAJOR contributions from 5 of that draft class. (Duggar - 3rd in team tackles, Uche - 3 QB hits, Jennings- 2 tackles one QB hit- and as mentioned Herron and Onwenu. That is a LOT of production from a rookie draft that usually takes a year or two before we see results.

TBF, I don't think even Belichick expected that.

Of course, one could also argue "How did the Pats come to value Rohrwasser more than Onwenu?"