Idle Thoughts - the "Christmas comes early" edition

[Sfpat]

"The Pats made 3 unforced turnovers, gave the Ravens anywhere between 17-21 points"

The Slater fumble was forced by contact with Ravens players. And the INT by Brady was forced by pressure from their D.

The Slater fumble was caused by Jone's bonehead play, which let to the 1st TD and thus the KO. Without it there is no KO.
The Brady INT was forced by poor play calling by the Pats on 1st and 2nd down. They had 1st and goal from the 4 and tried to get cute with the Ravens. Where was Blount???

 

[archstanton543]

The Slater fumble was caused by Jone's bonehead play, which let to the 1st TD and thus the KO. Without it there is no KO.
The Brady INT was forced by poor play calling by the Pats on 1st and 2nd down. They had 1st and goal from the 4 and tried to get cute with the Ravens. Where was Blount???

We can play that "because of this play, that play" game all day if you want. I say the Slater fumble was caused by the blocked punt. That doesn't happen and the rest of the plays leading up to the Slater fumble happen. You don't want to go down that road, so let's not, okay?

I don't blame the Pats for passing on that down. You have the GOAT. Let the man do his thing. Sure, it was a horrible throw into double coverage but it was forced by the pressure the Ravens were bringing on that play.

 

[luuked]

The Slater fumble was caused by Jone's bonehead play, which let to the 1st TD and thus the KO. Without it there is no KO.
The Brady INT was forced by poor play calling by the Pats on 1st and 2nd down. They had 1st and goal from the 4 and tried to get cute with the Ravens. Where was Blount???

The INT was forced by Brady not throwing a ball away when no one was open after 4-5 seconds.


The Pats were running a no huddle and after Hogan caught that first down inside the Raven's 5yard line Brady tried to run one of those controversial hurry up runs so the Ravens couldn't sub their goal line defense in. White happened to be the player that was in at that point so he got that run.

The playcall on second down which was a throw to Hogan in the flat was actually not bad but perfectly read and played by one of the Ravens defenders. There is not much I have an issue with here.


Yes, they should start thinking about stopping those hurry up runs inside the opponents redzone because they more often fail than they work. Especially since we were running over the Ravens yesterday anyway. But overall I honestly don't think the playcalls were too bad.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

"And the INT by Brady was forced by pressure from their D.

Yes and no. Yes, they put pressure on Brady. But stupid, stupid play by Brady to make that throw. Pressure didn't stop him from just eating the ball. And it didn't stop him from throwing it away. He chose to throw it into double coverage. There are virtually sure points on the board in that position. He has to go into the play knowing he can't make a turnover.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I agree, but they let like four or five other guys try returns last night and nothing really good happened until Lewis took a knee. I'll say a prayer for Amendola's health tonight.

Its one thing for a team having offense and defense issues. Those you can at least understand what the problems are but special teams issues drive me insane.

Its like golf. You can spend 18 holes hitting bombs off the tee, have great iron play, chipping in close every time but if you 3-put every time you want to throw your clubs in the pond.

 

[SEA_Pat]

For anyone wanting to run this kid out of town I have one name that's already been referenced: Kevin Faulk. It's an almost identical story line - great athlete, smart, and coachable - but just couldn't hang on to the ball in any pressure situation...and goes on to have an excellent New England career. Fumbles can be fixed in most every player. Jones will get another full offseason and all it usually takes is him breaking one and that confidence will be the biggest improvement.

If I'm guessing correctly, the next time y'all are wandering around New England the coming off-season and see some black dude who's also wandering around but is holding a football, that will be Cyrus Jones. My advice is to try to knock it out of his hands. I think that's what cured Faulk if I recall correctly.

 

[SEA_Pat]

"The Pats made 3 unforced turnovers, gave the Ravens anywhere between 17-21 points"

The Slater fumble was forced by contact with Ravens players. And the INT by Brady was forced by pressure from their D.

I'd agree with you on the Slater fumble. In fact, you could see how he made extra effort to wrap both his hands around the ball just before he got hit. Didn't matter at all. This is why Matthew Slater is not, should not, and hopefully will not ever play WR for us in a critical situation. He's a great ST guy. He's not meant for anything else.

 

[The Gr8est]

The deflategate II saga is JUST as stupid as the first one was, and only points out to even more casual observers just how INJUST the Pats "punishment" really was. By all rights it really should disappear, just like the first one should have, EXCEPT that I see it as a way to further expose Goodell and his corrupt regime, as Sally Jenkins did so well in here WP article.

But we live in an age where "successful" lying or deflecting is an acceptable political strategy, and even when you have it on tape, you can deny ever saying it and have a LOT of people believe you. So simply just exposing it once like Jenkins did, and letting it go, isn't going to work.

Just because some fans (and Felger) are just tired of talking about it, doesn't mean you just let them get away with it......again. We need the mediots to keep Goodell's feet to the fire, and ask him why he is handling this case so differently than with Pats. Why was PSI such a critical matter to the very" integrity of the game in 2014", and you couldn't care less about it in 2016? Believe it or not, there are some mediots who react to what we feel. We need to make them know we still feel the pain.

The @Joker will never let it die, and neither will I. Wrong is Wrong, and when honest men turn their backs on it simply because it's inconvenient or hard, then Tyranny wins. It's as simple as that.

I thought Jonathan Kraft's comment about the NFL* obviously now understanding the IGL was a gr8 response as well.

Very tactful way of calling the NFL* corrupt idiots, without using those exact words.

 

[irishfanatic]

Thanks for the game summary Ken, always a pleasure to read. I have only just finished watching the game as I was unable to do so last night (for a change).
Big picture, I am elated at the performance overall and in particular the D. I am not going to talk about Cyrus, I will let BB figure that one out. A host more positives than minuses and that is a good thing.
Cannot finish post without a shout out to Scar, so blessed to have him back.

On to Denver.

 

[The Gr8est]

I think I found Patrodomous:

2:25 that I will never get back.

I weep for the brain cells that died watching that. They never had a chance.....

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Good work as always, Ken.

The fumble issue is real with Cyrus Jones. The poor guy has fumbled on 28% of his touches this year. The primary job of a return man is to catch and hold onto the ball.

Comparing that to Brady's fumbles is entirely off point. QBs get strip-sacked every game. If Brady fumbled on 28% of his touches....

There are lies, damn lies, and then statistics, especially with extremely small sample sizes, and you know that.

Brady started out the game 3 for 9, but that doesn't mean that he will only complete 33% of his passes the rest of the night.

Everyone was crushing Ghost earlier but if he makes one more FG and one more XP, he's at his career average for FG and the league average for XP.

So is this a blip or is this the new reality? His college experience shows a returner who never fumbled, so it's not as if he has a reputation for this.

The real question is whether we think he's ever going to improve or not. Last night's "fumble" was really a mental mistake than a physical one. It looked like a rookie trying to make something out of nothing, when an established returner would have been miles away from that ball. He's definitely pressing, trying to make a play, and the team needs him to just do his job. Once he does that, things will settle down.

 

[SVN]

Personally I have never seen the reason why we continue to do this hurry-up running play because it feels like it works pretty rarely but obviously I don't have any stats on it.

it is one of those plays which has worked once or twice and the pats have simply overused it. i think last yr also on MNF vs the bills they tried the quick snap at the goal line and it got messed up . I maybe wrong.

 

[goheels22002]

There are lies, damn lies, and then statistics, especially with extremely small sample sizes, and you know that.

Brady started out the game 3 for 9, but that doesn't mean that he will only complete 33% of his passes the rest of the night.

Everyone was crushing Ghost earlier but if he makes one more FG and one more XP, he's at his career average for FG and the league average for XP.

So is this a blip or is this the new reality? His college experience shows a returner who never fumbled, so it's not as if he has a reputation for this.

The real question is whether we think he's ever going to improve or not. Last night's "fumble" was really a mental mistake than a physical one. It looked like a rookie trying to make something out of nothing, when an established returner would have been miles away from that ball. He's definitely pressing, trying to make a play, and the team needs him to just do his job. Once he does that, things will settle down.

I don't disagree with your last paragraph, but 13 games into the regular season isn't a small sample size, and 5 fumbles isn't an isolated occurrence, it's a pattern. What Cyrus Jones did in college has no relevance whatsoever to what he is doing as a professional football player.

Those two turnovers on special teams against the Ravens changed the game and could have easily cost the Patriots the game last night. The fact that Jones' fumble was a mental error makes it worse. It's not like a defender made a spectacular play. You are absolutely correct that Cyrus Jones should have played that ball like a professional football player, and gotten the hell away from it.

 

[luuked]

it is one of those plays which has worked once or twice and the pats have simply overused it. i think last yr also on MNF vs the bills they tried the quick snap at the goal line and it got messed up . I maybe wrong.

I think last year it worked and on top of it working there was a penalty on Buffalo because on of their players was still in our backfield when the Pats were set.

I personally don't like it. The entire thing only gives you a real advantage if the personnel you are in is flexible enough to get you into the redzone while having a true running threat + capable blockers already on the field, so you force a mismatch in goal line situations by not letting the opponent sub.

However, without Gronk we have lost one of the key parts of that flexibility and running White between tackles is a dicey move anyway. So in essence we'd have to already have Blount on the field before we get deep enough into their redzone to hammer it in, which in turn limits our play calling to get into that position in the first place.

Meh..

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I don't disagree with your last paragraph, but 13 games into the regular season isn't a small sample size, and 5 fumbles isn't an isolated occurrence, it's a pattern. What Cyrus Jones did in college has no relevance whatsoever to what he is doing as a professional football player.

Those two turnovers on special teams against the Ravens changed the game and could have easily cost the Patriots the game last night. The fact that Jones' fumble was a mental error makes it worse. It's not like a defender made a spectacular play. You are absolutely correct that Cyrus Jones should have played that ball like a professional football player, and gotten the hell away from it.

Technically 13 games really is a small sample size, as is 18 total returns.



And of COURSE what he did in college has some relevance to what he's doing now. Otherwise he wouldn't be drafted. There's a ton of carry-over and a lot we can learn. It doesn't mean he'll do everything the same way. But you can't just ignore all of his tape either.

I don't disagree with your last paragraph, but 13 games into the regular season isn't a small sample size, and 5 fumbles isn't an isolated occurrence, it's a pattern. What Cyrus Jones did in college has no relevance whatsoever to what he is doing as a professional football player.

Those two turnovers on special teams against the Ravens changed the game and could have easily cost the Patriots the game last night. The fact that Jones' fumble was a mental error makes it worse. It's not like a defender made a spectacular play. You are absolutely correct that Cyrus Jones should have played that ball like a professional football player, and gotten the hell away from it.

I think 13 games is a small sample size. There are tons of players who have not been what their first 13 games would indicate. But 18 plays is way too early to make any type of conclusions.

Jones's small sample size has been disturbing, no doubt, but it's hardly definitive. And the mental aspect doesn't bother me as much actually. It indicates a player who is over thinking instead of just reacting and playing the game. It's an unnatural thing for that player. Whether he can relax and get comfortable is another story, but I'd be more concerned if this is the way he plays when he's not thinking about it.

And what do you mean what he did in college has no relevance whatsoever to being a pro football player? Of course it does, it's how he even ended up here in the first place.

It might not translate 100%, it doesn't definitively guarantee anything, but you don't just throw it out as completely useless.

I guess we'll see how it all pans out but I'm not ready to give up on Jones yet.

 

[patfanken]

There are lies, damn lies, and then statistics, especially with extremely small sample sizes, and you know that.

Brady started out the game 3 for 9, but that doesn't mean that he will only complete 33% of his passes the rest of the night.

Everyone was crushing Ghost earlier but if he makes one more FG and one more XP, he's at his career average for FG and the league average for XP.

So is this a blip or is this the new reality? His college experience shows a returner who never fumbled, so it's not as if he has a reputation for this.

The real question is whether we think he's ever going to improve or not. Last night's "fumble" was really a mental mistake than a physical one. It looked like a rookie trying to make something out of nothing, when an established returner would have been miles away from that ball. He's definitely pressing, trying to make a play, and the team needs him to just do his job. Once he does that, things will settle down.

And that just about sums it up. He's a kid that is SO desperate to make a play and justify all his effort and place in the locker room, that he is almost doomed to fu^k up and each small error evolves into bigger one, until once was a pepple in his pocket, has become a boulder on his shoulder.

The team tells him to forget about it and focus on the present and what he can do NOW, but unfortuneately every mediot he talks to brings it up, even his friends will talk about it, and then late at night lyin in bed yoiu get those flashbacks of plays that make you sit up in the night.

Now don't lie to me. We ALL have them. There's one from HS I have from time to time. Having an angle on a player going down the sideline, then lowering my head (in typical NFL style) and try and chop tackle him. Or course I miss. and find myself at the feet of my HC, who glares at me for a full 2 secconds, (or a lifetime in teenage time) and then turns away without a comment. An hour of direct yelling wouldn't have been as painful as that scornful silence.

Needless to say I never did THAT again, but even after more than 50 years the thought of it will wake me up at night. (as does the the time on the recruiting trip to UMass ,when the girl called me HS Harry". That was a painfull too.....in a different way,.

But, getting back to the point, this is what Jones is going through. What he needs most now is support. He';ll get it from his coaches, as well as teammates. It wouldnt hurt if he gets a lttle be from us. We don't have to wimp out here. We are great fans, but tough and knowledgeable. We know how the game is supposted to be played. Above all we want our teams to try hard, 2nd would be to be as smart as most of us are., and 3rd is to make the most of the gifts that we were never given. I have no question about Jones' effort, nor that he is working to improve his gifts. But right now he's made some plays that make him look as dumb as rock. We need to tell him that that is unacceptable (but I think he knows that), and let him ALSO know we are behind him as he tries to find his way.

 

[mgteich]

And of COURSE what he did in college has some relevance to what he's doing now. Otherwise he wouldn't be drafted.

Nonsense! We did NOT spend a 2nd round draft choice on a punt returner. How Jones did in college as a punt returner is absolutely irrelevant to whether he should be returning punts for us.

 

[PScottman]

We did NOT spend a 2nd round draft choice on a punt returner.

Would you consider the punt returning skills in a second round draft choice as part of entire football player? If two CB prospects are equal in all other aspects of their game, but one also has considerable special teams experience, that doesn't increase the potential draft position?

He absolutely shouldn't get any more return chances in game situations unless HFA is achieved that is clear, but we didn't throw away Faulk, Edelman or Ridley right away and got some very nice future production from all three with that patience. Exercising that patience again has little downside in this case either. If these issues continue into a second season...they cut Easley for what many consider lesser issues...so it's not outside the realm of possibility.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Nonsense! We did NOT spend a 2nd round draft choice on a punt returner. How Jones did in college as a punt returner is absolutely irrelevant to whether he should be returning punts for us.

I'm trying to be diplomatic, but I honestly have to ask, what the ****???

Okay, first, nobody (except you) so far has suggested that we spent a 2nd round pick on a punt returner. I have no idea why you brought that up, but that's the first I've seen of it in this thread, and I certainly didn't suggest or write it in my responses.

And of course what someone does in college is somewhat relevant to what they should be doing in the pros. It doesn't mean it's the most important factor or the only tool in evaluation, but the tape means something.

To say it's absolutely irrelevant is ridiculous. We evaluate prospects based on what they've done and what they can do, and their college tape is a part of that. Again, not the most important thing, and not the only thing, but it absolutely has relevance.

For example, stats might tell you a player has a certain number of catches in a year and how many yards per catch he averaged. But the tape tells us how they caught the ball, did they extend their hands and snatch the ball or wait for it to hit their body? Can they catch in traffic, are they competitive in jump ball situations, do they look around for contact?

In terms of Jones, the tape can tell us if he's always had fumble issues or if it's something new, has he struggled in different weather conditions, did he make catches with guys around him, how aggressive was he as a returner, was he protecting the ball differently, what type of punters did he face? And at the end, we may conclude he SHOULDN'T be returning kicks. Or maybe we conclude he is overthinking it. Or maybe he hasn't faced some of the funky spins that NFL punters use, and so we can practice those.

But to claim it has absolutely zero relevance is just plain wrong. It doesn't paint the whole picture for us, but it can tell us many things.

I have no idea why I have to explain this.

 

[sambam94]

Those folks who complain about Cyrus Jones must have very short memories.

I remember a whole slew of rookies with fumble problems, some of whom cost us games while others just cost us points. Faulk, Pass, Redmond, etc. Even Edelman had some.

Give the rookie some time. He has excellent potential. maybe just pull him for a few games from ST and let him play defense to better learn the system and get his confidence back.

irrelevant..you can't have a guy back there receiving punts in big games when he obviously has no clue.
He looks absolutely horrendous back there...worst I've ever seen