Hopkins Headed to Tennessee

[crawhammer]

They have very good established WR's in Parker, Juju and Bourne.

Agree

They have potential stars in Thornton and Marcus Jones, both need to develop and stay healthy... but the athleticism is there.

Calling Thornton a "potential star" is a massive stretch right now.

They have potential contributors in Tre Nixon, Ed Lee, Raleigh Webb and Malik Cunningham.

There's maybe 3-4 WR's in the league that scare opposing coordinators. If the Pats youth develops and the unit stays healthy, they have a great group of weapons.

Do you watch NFL games?

 

[sambam94]

They have, sometimes they just did it with the wrong players... you don't have to think back that far - offseason prior to 2021 - Jonnu Smith and Nelson Agholor being the most obvious.

yup, dumb signings, 2 with marginal talent and not great stats..and pass on super talented Hopkins with history of greatness. What a mess since Brady left...mostly bill's fault.

 

[Kontradiction]

They have two great TE's in Gesicki and Henry.

They have very good established WR's in Parker, Juju and Bourne.

They have potential stars in Thornton and Marcus Jones, both need to develop and stay healthy... but the athleticism is there.

They have potential contributors in Tre Nixon, Ed Lee, Raleigh Webb and Malik Cunningham.

There's maybe 3-4 WR's in the league that scare opposing coordinators. If the Pats youth develops and the unit stays healthy, they have a great group of weapons.

There's some projection here, the kids have to develop and they need to stay healthy. They also have a great group of young RB's, but they could afford to add another body there.

It's rarely the team that has the one superweapon that wins it all, it's generally the teams that have the best group. Football is about matchups.

Neither are great TEs. Travis Kelce is a great TE. Andrews is a great TE. Kittle can be a great TE. Henry is in the 2nd tier at best and Gesicki is a 3rd tier TE. They’re a good compliment to one another and we have a better TE room than most of the NFL, but they’re not great TEs.

 

[PatsFan2]

Lightening in a bottle Wozzy is asking for a lot there. Really hoping the starts are aligned.

 

[Wozzy]

Really Great TE's??

How many "great" TE's are there in the league... name them?

Moreover how many great TE's are there in the league in good offensive situations with good coordinators, QB's, targets, offensive lines and surrounding weapons which draw defenders away from them?

Weapons, especially receiving weapons, don't play in a vacuum by themselves... they're reliant on the conditions around them.

 

[Bill Lee]

It's rarely the team that has the one superweapon that wins it all, it's generally the teams that have the best group. Football is about matchups.

In short, real football doesn't work the same way as fantasy football works.

 

[PatsFan2]

How many "great" TE's are there in the league... name them?

Moreover how many great TE's are there in the league in good offensive situations with good coordinators, QB's, targets, offensive lines and surrounding weapons which draw defenders away from them?

Weapons, especially receiving weapons, don't play in a vacuum by themselves... they're reliant on the conditions around them.

Kontra did UP ^ there.

 

[Wozzy]

Try about 20. That's an insane take.

I base that off of Mike Lombardi asking a defensive coordinator that question.

But heck, name ten?

 

[Wozzy]

I don't know who. He's better than Karras, and look at what he got. He came back for cheap.

Karras got overpaid by a team that can't find a great offensive lineman if he fell in their lap.

 

[Wozzy]

Neither are great TEs. Travis Kelce is a great TE. Andrews is a great TE. Kittle can be a great TE. Henry is in the 2nd tier at best and Gesicki is a 3rd tier TE. They’re a good compliment to one another and we have a better TE room than most of the NFL, but they’re not great TEs.

You're an unabashed "QB magic" guy... right.

So Andy Reid, Mahomes and one of the most expensive offensive line isn't a better situation than what Gesicki was handed in Miami with Ryan Fitzpatrick, a revolving door of offensive coaches, an average to bad offensive line and half the targets as Kelce? He gets half the targets as David Andrews. He gets half the targets as Kittle.

Receiving weapons don't throw themselves the ball.

Either better QB's and situations matter or they don't. At least be consistent with this QB's are magical unicorns nonsense.

 

[TBR]

Try about 20. That's an insane take.

Jefferson, Hill, Chase, Adams, Diggs, Kupp, AJ Brown, Kelce* (basically a receiver)

After that I think it drops off a little (Metcalf, St-Brown, McLaurin) and you have someone unique like Samuel who is highly effective and can be similarly impactful as the first tier guys, but it's not entirely due to his receiving.

 

[Bill Lee]

This could be me coping, but:

It's a really difficult season for the Patriots. Looking at the long term, is this the season to shell out for a veteran WR? I'm always thinking about the long term (potentially to a fault) and it raises questions like: what is Hopkins' effect long-term? Will that net positive carry into the next season when he's potentially gone? Can we keep this guy happy enough to not divide the locker room?

I would suggest the team feels it's better to spend those practice reps and game-time snaps on those developing targets @Wozzy mentioned.

I think ultimately I would've loved to see the signing because it'd confirm for me that there is a belief that his output would benefit us long-term (encourage and inspire other receivers, encourage Max, etc.) But maybe the Patriots staff didn't see that to be true. This season would be a slog for even Brady (but then again, in the instance it's a no-brainer: get Hopkins. Brady can maximize the value of almost all signings. Can Mac do that?)

They saw him as a $4m base plus $11m incentives guy, not a $12m plus $3m incentives guy, as did 30 of the other teams out there, including KC, BUF, AZ, etc.

The fact he's going to run-heavy, middle-of-the-pack TEN instead of a pass-heavy, serious contender speaks volumes, IMO.

After weeks of him being on the market, this is the best deal that he could find.

There's no way to mask the fact that the league no longer values him as a WR1.

 

[Pape]

Karras got overpaid by a team that can't find a great offensive lineman if he fell in their lap.

so the point stands? thanks

 

[Steve102]

I base that off of Mike Lombardi asking a defensive coordinator that question.

But heck, name ten?

Tyreek Hill
Justin Jefferson
Davante Adams
CeeDee Lamb
Stefon Diggs
AJ Brown
Cooper Kupp
DK Metcalf
Jamar Chase
Mike Evans or chris Godwn, you pick.

 

[Jangles]

Who came here for substantially less?

Players came here or re-signed for a little less (Hightower) because they didn't want to play for a league doormat.

Moss came here and two years later when his contract was up, he moaned about money... guess who the QB still was.

I don’t have a list of specific players and their contract value vs market value over the years

My point remains that this is no longer a destination where players go to revive their careers, or win a ring. The Pats don’t have anything but money to offer anymore.

 

[RIP#40]

Then what's he doing with Mac? Why did Bledsoe struggle?

Just because belichick taught Brady things, that doesn't mean he still didn't get lucky that it panned out.

There's a reason plenty of teachers still praise the students that pan out.

Brady was a 6th rounder with dubious odds on becoming the GOAT. Thru BB'S handling of him( game manager 1st couple of seasons and teaching him how to read defenses) and Brady's unparalleled work ethic, he did in fact become the GOAT. Why isn't MAC getting the same results? It's early and who knows what MAC'S off the field work ethic is. My guess is that MAC is going to make huge gains this season.

 

[Wozzy]

Tyreek Hill
Justin Jefferson
Davante Adams
CeeDee Lamb
Stefon Diggs
AJ Brown
Cooper Kupp
DK Metcalf
Jamar Chase
Mike Evans or chris Godwn, you pick.

Tyreek, Metcalf maybe and Devante Adams get special attention.

The rest get your best CB and nothing else changes.

 

[Kontradiction]

You're an unabashed "QB magic" guy... right.

So Andy Reid, Mahomes and one of the most expensive offensive line isn't a better situation than what Gesicki was handed in Miami with Ryan Fitzpatrick, a revolving door of offensive coaches, an average to bad offensive line and half the targets as Kelce? He gets half the targets as David Andrews. He gets half the targets as Kittle.

Receiving weapons don't throw themselves the ball.

Either better QB's and situations matter or they don't. At least be consistent with this QB's are magical unicorns nonsense.

You’re moving the goal posts. What I am or am not is irrelevant to whether or not Henry and Gesicki are “great” TEs.

The second paragraph does nothing to bolster your point that they are “great” TEs. Those are mere excuses to avoid admitting that maybe you’re a little too high on them.

The third paragraph? These two will have Mac Jones throwing the ball. You’ve recently said “Zappe is breathing down his neck.” Using that to bolster your argument that both are “great” TEs is odd, at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.

The fourth paragraph is, again, irrelevant. These are not great TEs. They’re not even top 5. Henry is a 2nd tier TE at best and Gesicki is a 3rd tier. They are what they are.

As I said, they’re still a good fit for the O and they’re one of the better TE rooms in the NFL, but nobody is putting them ahead of the Kelces, Kittles, Andrews, Wallers, Hockensens, and Goederts of the NFL. Kelce, Kittle, Andrews, Waller, and Goedert are the top 5. Kelce, Kittle, and Andrews are the top 3 (I.E., great). Who out of that list are you putting Henry or Gesicki over?

 

[Wozzy]

I don’t have a list of specific players and their contract value vs market value over the years

My point remains that this is no longer a destination where players go to revive their careers, or win a ring. The Pats don’t have anything but money to offer anymore.

Hopkins didn't choose Kansas City, Eagles or Bills for less money... so seemingly nobody takes pennies to play.

 

[Steve102]

Tyreek, Metcalf maybe and Devante Adams get special attention.

The rest get your best CB and nothing else changes.

I would say your DC may feel differently, coach, but I get you are not going to change your mind.