Gronk = + - Ben Coates?

[IllegalContact]

Being compared to the best TE I've ever seen wear a Patriots uniform is an insult?
Not to knock Gronk, but let's see him do it for a awhile before we start comparing him to Mark Bavaro.

From the small sample we've seen it's easy to think Gronk may be one of the best ever though.

russ francis actually had a more complete skill set than either

 

[primetime]

Indeed, as I said Bledsoe had many flaws.

But it was a different game than it is today...having 15+ interceptions in a year wasn't uncommon back then (but 27 was), plus the Pats leading rusher in 1994 was Marion Butts, which had a 2.9 ypc average for the year. It put a lot of pressure on Bledsoe to carry the entire offensive load, and as such he threw close to 700 passes that year. And, beside Coates, the rest of the offense cast wasn't exactly pro-bowl material : Brisby, Timpson, Leroy Thompson, Crittenden, John Burke...there's only Kevin Turner that IMO was better than average.

And when Bledsoe needed a big play, he looked for Ben, even though he might be triple-covered. Gronkowski has the chance to play with a more accurate qb than Bledsoe was, but also 'sharing' coverage with other very good options such as Welker and Hernandez.

leroy thompson had something like 70 catches that year... coates, thompson, and turner were pretty much the only receiving threats worth mentioning on the team. brisby was bad, and everyone else was worse.

its just such a different era. look at that video of bledsoe in the vikings game someone posted a few weeks back. coates looks about half the size of just about any tight end in the game today, yet he was still able to reliably beat double and triple coverage in an era when linebackers and safeties could maul him without being flagged for defensive holding or illegal contact

its amazing that we can look back on the mid-90s as a different era, but 15 years makes a huge difference in football

 

[RDS11]

leroy thompson had something like 70 catches that year... coates, thompson, and turner were pretty much the only receiving threats worth mentioning on the team. brisby was bad, and everyone else was worse.

After 1994, Thompson only had 14 more catches and was out of the league by 1996 at age 27.
Looks like he was the best of what the Pats had at the time, but that's not saying much. I would compare Thompson to JR Redmond...he had his moment in the sun, but in the end he wasn't a very good player.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Coates was capable of beating what were literally double and triple teams, and it wasn't due to a height advantage where Bledsoe could just throw it up higher than the defenders could jump. Gronk has shown no ability to do that.

Gronk has his strengths, no doubt, but Coates could do things that few tight ends have ever been able to do. This notion that Gronk's ceiling is somehow in another league from Coates' is just a product of the "latest thing" effect.

This is true ... I am trying to remember if Coates had lateral ability. I remember so many passes he caught running down field but I do not remember him catching to many making the cuts laterally?

Just putting this here and not responding to any of your posts. Coates was a more than decent blocker on the line ... he just wasn't a downfield type of blocker. However, we ran more screens back then and I do remember he was in on those when not the decoy. Overall he was good enough and his intelligence made him better than that when needed.

 

[Patriot Missile]

russ francis actually had a more complete skill set than either

Again if you read my post it says "That I've ever seen". I didn't start taking a interest in football until 1982. But do remember Francis doing a stint in the late 80's at the twilight of his career here which wasn't very good.

 

[brdmaverick]

Gronkowski is an absolute beast. I'm not sure that there really is an appropriate comparison for him. I think the closest comparison may be a young Tony Gonazalez.

 

[Deus Irae]

Gronkowski is an absolute beast. I'm not sure that there really is an appropriate comparison for him. I think the closest comparison may be a young Tony Gonazalez.

There are a bunch of appropriate comparisons for Gronk playing in the NFL right now.

Graham in NO is the first that comes to mind.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Gronk is an absolute beast. You just can't stop him. Too big and too fast

 

[RobertWeathers]

russ francis actually had a more complete skill set than either

I'm not about ready to anoint Gronk as the best TE in Pats history. The kid has all the tools no question and a bright future ahead of him.

I was a little kid in the mid-70s so I can't say if RF was better/worse but what I can tell you is how good he was with SF in the 80s when he was clearly pass his prime, still put up great numbers and was very good at run-blocking. With that said, folks need to consider that at least statistically, the Pats of the 70s ran the ball 70% of the time and for RF to catch 40 balls a year should tell you something.

For a 3 year stretch, Ben Coates was the best all-around TE in football. His pass/run blocking were above average but man he could catch the ball. That puts him ahead of Sharpe IMO.

 

[eric5280]

Give me Gronkowski any day of the week. Coates was great but Gronkowski is just on a whole other level. The fact Gronkowski beat Coates career high in touchdowns in a season his rookie year and is on pace to smash that again this year is just a testament to his greatness. Remember we're comparing Gronkowski's first 1.5 seasons to Coates very best seasons. You compare it to Coate's first 2 seasons and it's not even close. Gronkowski is truly a rare physical talent with equally good hands and far superior blocking ability.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Give me Gronkowski any day of the week. Coates was great but Gronkowski is just on a whole other level. The fact Gronkowski beat Coates career high in touchdowns in a season his rookie year and is on pace to smash that again this year is just a testament to his greatness. Remember we're comparing Gronkowski's first 1.5 seasons to Coates very best seasons. You compare it to Coate's first 2 seasons and it's not even close. Gronkowski is truly a rare physical talent with equally good hands and far superior blocking ability.

Need to factor in the changes in passing rules, 5 yd chuck, QB protection rules, illegal contact, etc.

If you drop either Coates or Francis on any team today with a decent Qb the will put up 100 catch, 1000 yd, 10 TD seasons as well.

 

[sbpatfan]

Need to factor in the changes in passing rules, 5 yd chuck, QB protection rules, illegal contact, etc.

If you drop either Coates or Francis on any team today with a decent Qb the will put up 100 catch, 1000 yd, 10 TD seasons as well.

They also got away with a lot more too, it works both ways.

 

[fnordcircle]

Stats don't tell the whole story.

Who do you think was getting double and triple covered but was still able to rack up sick yards with an inferior QB? Do you really think that Michael Timpson, Ray Crittendon, Vincent Brisby and Will Moore were getting as much attention from opposing defenses as Welker, Branch, Hernandez?

So sick of people going 'HE HAD [STAT] THEREFORE HE IS BETTER.'

Ultimately I don't have a problem with people who think Gronkowski is better, I might even agree.

What is pissing me off is how people are offhandedly disregarding Coates' on the field legacy which was while surrounded by less talent than Gronkowski has and before the league had added a bevy of new rules that favor the passing game.

 

[RobertWeathers]

They also got away with a lot more too, it works both ways.

What did they get away with? Receivers get away with 1000 times more now. It's a passing league.

How many TEs had 90 catch seasons in the 70s? None. The 80s? One- Todd Christensen and he had two of them.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Me thinks that some did not actually see Ben play or saw him at the end of his carrer.

Ben was simply amazing for a 5 year stretch. Everyone knew that Drew was going ot him but that made no difference.

I do see some of those traits in Gronk, mostly this year. He had a very good rookie year but it is not until this year that he's starting to be compared a bit to Ben, in my mind. And I'm not going by stats, I'm going by what my lying eyes tell me.

 

[LetsGoPats36]

Lol, this thread is funny.

Pretty obvious to tell which people got to watch Coates play compared to those that didn't.

Gronk is great and playing like an All Pro for the second year in a row. But, let's give him a chance to sustain that success before crowning him as better than Coates, who was a revelation and rare commodity in his time.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Lol, this thread is funny.

Pretty obvious to tell which people got to watch Coates play compared to those that didn't.

Gronk is great and playing like an All Pro for the second year in a row. But, let's give him a chance to sustain that success before crowning him as better than Coates, who was a revelation and rare commodity in his time.

Coates made everyone forget Marv Cook who had 3 straight 50 catch seasons- including a 82 catch year in I think 1990 or 1991.

Then you had Derrick Ramsey who made everyone forget Don Hasselbeck- who was a decent TE too. Ramsey couldn't block though.