Gilmore traded to Carolina

[captain stone]

Takes a while to dig out from having to put the corpse of Cam Newton out as QB.

To see how fast things can turn around.

Justin Herbert started his career in SD 2-9. Then won the last 4 games last year, and is 3-1 this year.

Herbert >>>>>> Mac.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

In retrospect I think it would be interesting to know WTF BB was thinking during the 2020 offseason.

The franchising of Thuney and not trading Gilmore look really bad at this point. We could have had maybe an additional what $30m in cap space and an extra 1st rounder.

Did he really think that Jarrett Stidham was capable of providing say average QB play in 2020, and so keeping those players would make the Patriots competitive?

ziegler totally in over his head.

 

[Rob0729]

FWIW, Ian Rappaport just said on WEEI that speaking to front office people around the league that they felt that Gilmore did not look good on film last year even before his injury. This is a big reason why the Pats couldn't get a trade partner for anything remotely worthwhile.

I still think they should have traded him before the 2020 season after Brady left, but at least it explains why they couldn't get a decent trade possibly dating back to last year's trade deadline.

 

[Rob0729]

Herbert >>>>>> Mac.

He has been even in his rookie season. But Herbert had receivers, a decent o-line, and they let him just go full force right out of the gate. Jones has lesser receivers, no o-line, and they are managing him.

That said, Jones hasn't shown remotely enough to tell us that he will be in the same stratosphere as Herbert. But I could see that after a down year this year, that they could rebound to be a contender next year if Jones progress especially after they take off the training wheels.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Herbert >>>>>> Mac.

No question. Herbert is pretty damn good.

Hope Mac gets some help.

 

[Bill Lee]

In retrospect I think it would be interesting to know WTF BB was thinking during the 2020 offseason.

The franchising of Thuney and not trading Gilmore look really bad at this point. We could have had maybe an additional what $30m in cap space and an extra 1st rounder.

Did he really think that Jarrett Stidham was capable of providing say average QB play in 2020, and so keeping those players would make the Patriots competitive?

Is all this fair?

We see what our OL looks like without Thuney now, wasn't it a good idea to keep him as long as you could at acceptable money?

Not sure why we're penciling in a 1st for Gilmore based on what happened to Seymour twelve years ago, Jimmy G only fetched a 2nd four years ago.

I think the idea with Stid then Cam was to go for a run first offense and strong defense, hard to do if you dump your best defender and your best o-lineman.

Dumping them suggests tanking, and I'm not sure BB was in to tanking.

I just think the same people whining about our current OL would be b*tching about how dumb it was to let Thuney walk and get nothing for him and trade away Gilmore.

 

[203Pat]

He has been even in his rookie season. But Herbert had receivers, a decent o-line, and they let him just go full force right out of the gate. Jones has lesser receivers, no o-line, and they are managing him.

That said, Jones hasn't shown remotely enough to tell us that he will be in the same stratosphere as Herbert. But I could see that after a down year this year, that they could rebound to be a contender next year if Jones progress especially after they take off the training wheels.

Herbert had a terrible O-line and an idiot head coach last year and still lit it up.

 

[Brady6]

So whats your solution?

Should he be fired? You realize if Kraft removes his GM duties he also likely leaves as well right? No issue with taking that stance, just want to know what the way ahead is in that circumstance.

If that is the case - who's the heir apparent that's going to take over and how long do they get before their head needs to be on a pike?

Without knowing the facts of how many things truly transpired, I cannot tell you whether they should fire Belichick. I also would want to be on the payroll if I was tasked with determining a solution.

That said, for the sake of discussion, I am not for firing Belichick. However, I would like people on this board to start living in the present and stop excusing poor performance and bad decisions by referencing things he did in the past.

The real question is how long do you think Kraft will be OK with not having Brady and having a losing team? The way he loves Brady I am not sure.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

No question. Herbert is pretty damn good.

Hope Mac gets some help.

Herbert may look better than Mac now, but Peyton looked better than Brady did early on too. Herbert will probably be a HOF QB...and I just hope Mac is in the conversation too.

 

[Pats2000]

Mac may process things well so far but Herbert was already processing things like a veteran QB a handful of games into his NFL career. The Saints game last year he made some ridiculous plays. The video below the first play shows a zero blitz with a free rusher in his face. He handles a bad snap, immediately rolls out and avoids the rusher, and fires a 30 yard laser on the run to Keenan Allen for a TD. That is a ton of processing and Mac is nowhere near that level right now. I like Mac but I would give up anything to get Herbert and wouldn't think twice about kicking Mac to the curb for him.

I don't see the processing you were talking about. I saw a QB that ran a scramble drill and kept his eyes downfield with his receivers running the scramble drill with him.

On the TD pass, he had 5 seconds of a clean pocket with no close to him. He got to survey the field and wait for his man to get open.

Herbert is a great QB, but it's a completely different offensive system, he has better weapons and an Oline that is keep him very clean. He's only been sacked 2 times this year in 4 games.

He also plays in a completely different offense. More West Coast vertical style offense. The kid is awesome, I would definietely want him on our team too. But we have Mac and I believe Mac is going to have the better career.

 

[203Pat]

Herbert may look better than Mac now, but Peyton looked better than Brady did early on too. Herbert will probably be a HOF QB...and I just hope Mac is in the conversation too.

Lol what are we doing here?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Herbert had a terrible O-line and an idiot head coach last year and still lit it up.

The Pats offense is more complicated than LAC's. Let's give Mac some more time. If he's looking the same mid-way through 2022 then it's probably going to be his ceiling.

 

[Brady6]

Herbert had a terrible O-line and an idiot head coach last year and still lit it up.

Mac Jones is in a unique situation where he is a rookie starting for a team expecting to win now. As a result, he is playing a much more restricted brand of football than you usually see when a rookie is starting.

I love Herbert but let's also keep in mind he has Keenan Allen and Michael Williams.

 

[Rob0729]

Herbert had a terrible O-line and an idiot head coach last year and still lit it up.

I didn't follow them last year. So I will take your word on it. But it cannot be as bad as the Pats' has been this year and Herbert is mobile to roll out to avoid the rush.

But again, I am not saying that Jones has shown he can remotely be as good. I am just saying it certainly is possible even if the Pats suck this year, they can be a contender next year.

Herbert showed what he could do right off the bat. There were no training wheels on him. Jones is being managed. So we don't really know what he is yet. He may not be much better than he is now when they do take off the training wheels. But we do not know yet.

I probably wouldn't use the Chargers as a the example. Let's use a QB who I am fairly confident that Jones will be better than. How about Jared Goff? He only played seven games his rookie season, but they were 4-12 his rookie season (0-7 with him) and then went 11-5 his second season.

 

[203Pat]

I don't see the processing you were talking about. I saw a QB that ran a scramble drill and kept his eyes downfield with his receivers running the scramble drill with him.

On the TD pass, he had 5 seconds of a clean pocket with no close to him. He got to survey the field and wait for his man to get open.

Herbert is a great QB, but it's a completely different offensive system, he has better weapons and an Oline that is keep him very clean. He's only been sacked 2 times this year in 4 games.

He also plays in a completely different offense. More West Coast vertical style offense. The kid is awesome, I would definietely want him on our team too. But we have Mac and I believe Mac is going to have the better career.

Being able to recognize the blitz, avoid it, and throw accurately on the run doesn't take processing?

 

[Bill Lee]

The reset is over. That's why they brought in a new core group, hoping to rebuild that middle class hollowed by the 5-year run. And now have added the new centerpiece, who's a rookie.

If they're under .500 this year, that'll be disappointing. If they can't get to playoff contention next year, then it's time to think about shortening that leash. I think this is a pretty good football team that needs to correct a few things that seem correctable. Which is kind of remarkable given the turnover.

Thing is, I don't think the reset is over. We still have a lot of older players playing key spots, like McCourty and Hightower, ones that aren't easy to replace. The Collins signing shows younger players aren't stepping up. The Judon signing was excellent but shows we had to go to FA to get talent. We saw how reliant we were on an aging play maker like James White even after adding young exciting RBs and now that he got injured we see it even more.

Ranking NFL teams by age after 53-man cutdowns: 2021 edition says we're still the 28th oldest team. Age isn't everything (the GOAT alone makes that case) but still I don't feel we've done a full reset.

This offseason will be interesting. I think there will be a lot of turnover. I think we now know what direction we are going in with regard to QB and having a QB1 on a rookie contract will allow for a lot of moves. I think the thinking will become more focused on the long term and adding younger players (and keeping ones like Meyers) will be a priority.

 

[203Pat]

I didn't follow them last year. So I will take your word on it. But it cannot be as bad as the Pats' has been this year and Herbert is mobile to roll out to avoid the rush.

But again, I am not saying that Jones has shown he can remotely be as good. I am just saying it certainly is possible even if the Pats suck this year, they can be a contender next year.

Herbert showed what he could do right off the bat. There were no training wheels on him. Jones is being managed. So we don't really know what he is yet. He may not be much better than he is now when they do take off the training wheels. But we do not know yet.

I probably wouldn't use the Chargers as a the example. Let's use a QB who I am fairly confident that Jones will be better than. How about Jared Goff? He only played seven games, but they were 4-12 his rookie season (0-7 with him) and then went 11-5 his second season.

Herbert's line was pretty bad last year but better than ours has been this year. That is something that worries me with Mac is that he isn't the most mobile guy and we are getting him killed right now. I don't know if some of it is on Mac and not properly identifying the mike LB but when a free rusher is able to get a clean shot on him the way that Bucs rookie with the three names did it is a recipe for disaster. I do agree that even if we do end up sucking this year there is still hope based on what Mac has shown so far. I just don't want Mac to be hurt by Thanksgiving and lose out on valuable experience and have to rehab from an injury because our offensive line can't get it together.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Keenan Allen and Mike Williams >>>> any patriots WR

 

[Rob0729]

Herbert's line was pretty bad last year but better than ours has been this year. That is something that worries me with Mac is that he isn't the most mobile guy and we are getting him killed right now. I don't know if some of it is on Mac and not properly identifying the mike LB but when a free rusher is able to get a clean shot on him the way that Bucs rookie with the three names did it is a recipe for disaster. I do agree that even if we do end up sucking this year there is still hope based on what Mac has shown so far. I just don't want Mac to be hurt by Thanksgiving and lose out on valuable experience and have to rehab from an injury because our offensive line can't get it together.

Although there have communication issues with the o-line that have led to blown blocking assignments, the Pats' linemen are just getting beat off the line in most cases. Cam Newton admitted he couldn't identify the mike because he came from systems that had the center identify the mike and the Pats didn't have issues with blocking assignments last year. And I think someone in the media watching film would have picked up if Jones was constantly miscalling the mike.

But agree that the poor o-line play no matter the reason for it could stunt Jones' development and/or get him injured.

 

[patsinthesnow]

They won the Superbowl played in January, 2017, lost the Superbowl played in 2018, and won the Superbowl played in 2019.

I mean, seriously. So, after that February, 2019 SB, you had a team full of guys who had played more games, longer season, grueling pressure for three straight years. And a team full of guys very likely a bit less hungry, because that's how humans operate. You also, for 3 straight years, had FAs who were going to get ABOVE market, as SB FAs almost always do (EDIT: and coaches!). It also means that for 3 straight years (and really, for 5, rolling in 2014 and 15), you had very deep VETERAN rosters, because that's what SB teams usually have. This also means lower draft picks, round after round (not counting the stolen ones).

Not a lot of rookies start on SB teams.

There's a price to pay for 5 years of that kind of NFL dominance, individually and as a team. Loosen the leash a bit here on BB and the Pats.

2019 fell apart with Gordon, AB, Sanu getting hurt, Brady having clearly had enough. They were still a playoff team, which many cities would kill for. They were trying to squeeze out one last run, but it fell apart - Gronk retiring before the season AFTER any half-decent replacement could be found; Gordon falling apart after 6 games; Antonio Brown bringing his freak show into town and completely screwing up in short order; Sanu getting hurt right after coming here.

2020 was a complete reset, more than typical with the opt-outs. It was all about cash, Yes, I think, in hindsight, that Thuney and Gilmore were errors. BB wanted to keep Thuney, but he broke the bank with a desperate SB favorite. Gilmore is a different story, as I believe BB was hoping to got another deal done with him and would have paid it if he held up to 2018 performance levels and hadn't gotten hurt.

The reset is over. That's why they brought in a new core group, hoping to rebuild that middle class hollowed by the 5-year run. And now have added the new centerpiece, who's a rookie.

If they're under .500 this year, that'll be disappointing. If they can't get to playoff contention next year, then it's time to think about shortening that leash. I think this is a pretty good football team that needs to correct a few things that seem correctable. Which is kind of remarkable given the turnover.

I think some are going overboard with this team (the frustration is warranted at 1-3). Their point differential is +1 at 18th in the NFL & they have a positive passer rating differential, yards per play etc. These stats correlate with wins over a season.

They’ve lost 3 fumbles on something like 100 RB touches. They had a pick 6 clank off a TE’s hands. And oh ya, they can’t block a stunt or pick up a blitz like an NFL team. The former is flukey on a small sample & the latter is unacceptable.