"getting the Mike in there against the slide"?

[K. Dog]

At 5:21 in the great video



Belichick says:

Even on the play-action stuff in 21, getting the Mike in there on the front side against the slide is a lot better than getting a read game on the back side where it’s still 4 on 2.

Can someone explain what this means and why Belichick said it?

 

[Tony2046]

I'll take a shot. Disclaimer: IANAHC ( I am not a head coach) or IANBB (I am not BB)

Btw: Great idea for a thread.

21 is an offensive personnel identifier = 2 running backs, 1 TE and 2 WR's.
Mike = Strong side (Usually the side the TE is lined up on) Inside LB.
Slide is an offensive line blocking scheme which slides right or left depending on where they are trying to create a running lane.

The Concept Blocking System by X&O Labs


Running a 3-4 defense the Inside LB's are responsible to plug either the A (between the Center and Guard) or B (Between Guard and Tackle) gaps depending how the front 3 are lined up or which technique they are using.

Technique = how each defensive lineman is lined up against the offensive line. 0 tech would be the nose guard lined up directly over the center and a 1 tech would be the nose guard lined up over either the left or right of the center's shoulder.

So my interpretation is that the Mike LB would penetrate the Oline from the front side of blocking scheme as opposed to the backside. I assume frontside would be the B gap and backside would be the A gap.

I assume the "read game" refers to the offensive side of the play. In an option play the QB has to read the defense and decide whether to hand off or run it himself. Denver loved running the read option under Kubiak.

 

[fnordcircle]

I'll take a shot. Disclaimer: IANAHC ( I am not a head coach) or IANBB (I am not BB)

Great post man, thank you. But we're still enemies.

 

[Tony2046]

Great post man, thank you. But we're still enemies.

Had no idea. When did that happen?

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I'll take a shot. Disclaimer: IANAHC ( I am not a head coach) or IANBB (I am not BB)

Btw: Great idea for a thread.

21 is an offensive personnel identifier = 2 running backs, 1 TE and 2 WR's.
Mike = Strong side (Usually the side the TE is lined up on) Inside LB.
Slide is an offensive line blocking scheme which slides right or left depending on where they are trying to create a running lane.

The Concept Blocking System by X&O Labs
View attachment 16839

Running a 3-4 defense the Inside LB's are responsible to plug either the A (between the Center and Guard) or B (Between Guard and Tackle) gaps depending how the front 3 are lined up or which technique they are using.

Technique = how each defensive lineman is lined up against the offensive line. 0 tech would be the nose guard lined up directly over the center and a 1 tech would be the nose guard lined up over either the left or right of the center's shoulder.

So my interpretation is that the Mike LB would penetrate the Oline from the front side of blocking scheme as opposed to the backside. I assume frontside would be the B gap and backside would be the A gap.

I assume the "read game" refers to the offensive side of the play. In an option play the QB has to read the defense and decide whether to hand off or run it himself. Denver loved running the read option under Kubiak.

 

[fnordcircle]

Had no idea. When did that happen?

Just now, for forgetting why I was mad at you.

 

[ausbacker]

Stresses to me just how important it is to have your defensive captain (let's face it, it's the MLB) quickly diagnose the play, properly communicate it to his 10 teammates then have all 11 execute their role in the identified package. It also goes a long way to explaining why Belichick readily moves on from players who enjoy skylarking (no natter how physically talented they are). Makes me wonder if Troy Polamalu would have been able to succeed in New England knowing he was given creative license to do as he pleased on the field.

 

[luuked]

Great post man, thank you. But we're still enemies.

Kinda fitting that those moronic "Brady's last year" & "JG and the 3 year plan" threads get hundreds of replies and this one only a handful. Got a lot of deadweight around here.

 

[K. Dog]

I'll take a shot.

I appreciate that work, it's a good start. But I'm still pretty much in the dark about the original quote. Why the comment about "4 on 2"? If "read game" refers to the read option, why is it directed at the defense? It doesn't seem to make sense in context to parse "read game" as "read option", since it seems like it's a defensive option not an offensive one? What difference does it make if the linebacker goes in the A or B gap - how does that affect Belichick's point - which is what? Why is it important that the offense be in 21? Basically, I still really don't understand what Belichick meant, what he was getting at, and why he made that suggestion.

 

[Tony2046]

I appreciate that work, it's a good start. But I'm still pretty much in the dark about the original quote. Why the comment about "4 on 2"? If "read game" refers to the read option, why is it directed at the defense? It doesn't seem to make sense in context to parse "read game" as "read option", since it seems like it's a defensive option not an offensive one? What difference does it make if the linebacker goes in the A or B gap - how does that affect Belichick's point - which is what? Why is it important that the offense be in 21? Basically, I still really don't understand what Belichick meant, what he was getting at, and why he made that suggestion.

Firstly I want to say this was an awesome idea for a thread. Easily one of the best threads started in the last month so thank you for that.

To be honest I thought this thread would have attracted a lot more attention than it did. I gave you my response which definitely did not completely answer your question but I was hoping others would chime in so that we could both learn.

For me it would be incredibly difficult to break down what BB says without seeing what play he was discussing. But I have no problem trying.

I will post more later for discussion purposes.

 

[DarrylS]

Stresses to me just how important it is to have your defensive captain (let's face it, it's the MLB) quickly diagnose the play, properly communicate it to his 10 teammates then have all 11 execute their role in the identified package. It also goes a long way to explaining why Belichick readily moves on from players who enjoy skylarking (no natter how physically talented they are). Makes me wonder if Troy Polamalu would have been able to succeed in New England knowing he was given creative license to do as he pleased on the field.

Or simply put why Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins are no longer part of this team..

Kinda fitting that those moronic "Brady's last year" & "JG and the 3 year plan" threads get hundreds of replies and this one only a handful. Got a lot of deadweight around here.

Or how Bertram, Felger, CHB, Borges et al make a living off of manufactured Patriots Controversy the world of "what ifs".. sports talk that revels in the success of the Pats does poorer than those who are proponents of conflict or second guessing.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I appreciate that work, it's a good start. But I'm still pretty much in the dark about the original quote. Why the comment about "4 on 2"? If "read game" refers to the read option, why is it directed at the defense? It doesn't seem to make sense in context to parse "read game" as "read option", since it seems like it's a defensive option not an offensive one? What difference does it make if the linebacker goes in the A or B gap - how does that affect Belichick's point - which is what? Why is it important that the offense be in 21? Basically, I still really don't understand what Belichick meant, what he was getting at, and why he made that suggestion.

Maybe he means he'd rather have the Mike attack the slide and take on a blocker at the point of attack, rather than let they play develop fully, even though that means they'd have 4 defenders (with Mike) against only two blockers later, but then they have to read the proper hole to attack.

Totally basing this on nothing other than context of the wording.

 

[ChessToCheckers]

Somebody from the Boston media should ask BB this exact question at his next presser. Oh wait. That would be a question about football.

 

[Urgent]

At 5:21 in the great video



Belichick says:
Even on the play-action stuff in 21, getting the Mike in there on the front side against the slide is a lot better than getting a read game on the back side where it’s still 4 on 2.


Can someone explain what this means and why Belichick said it?

Another take.

Belichick is talking about how to defend the an offensive package - specifically where to send the middle linebacker.

He is qualifying that with his opening comment "Even on the play-action stuff."
That means he is about to suggest the best way to run the middle linebacker, recognizing that sometimes in this offense the line will block as if it's a run, but will use a play-action to pull in the linebackers and then throw. The risk here is that the middle linebacker vacates his position, where a receiver (including tight end or running back) could be to receive the play-action pass.

"in 21"
As Tony2046 mentioned, 21 refers to an offensive personnel package. 2 RB, 1 TE. That leaves 2 WR.
A 21 is the standard personnel package of the 80's and 90's. Now three-receiver sets are more common.
Anyway, a 21 package has a tight end and a fullback, so it's a standard package for a run.

"getting the Mike"
Linebackers are typically referred to as Sam, Mike, and Will.
Sam is the strong-side linebacker, which means the side of the line with more offensive blockers. Commonly the extra blocker is a tight end, but could a fullback or extra offensive lineman. The Sam faces the most traffic, and is normally on the front side of the play.
Mike is the middle linebacker. The Mike typically gets the defensive call and aligns the rest of the defense.
Will is the weak-side linebacker, and can blitz or drop into coverage. The play often goes away from the Will, so the Will is chasing from the backside.

"in there on the front side"
This is the direction in which the ball is going. Guards are typically referred to as frontside and backside guards, based on the direction of the play. In a standard 21 package run behind the tight end, the tight end aligns to the right, outside the larger right tackle. The fullback will align to the right, and the running back will run to the right behind the overloaded blockers. What Belichick is saying, then, is to align the middle linebacker over to the right, and prepare to flow to the right at the snap. Get toward the front side of the play.

"against the slide"
Tony2046 presented a nice chart showing a simple slide blocking scheme. No guard pulling, just basic run blocking moving forward toward one side of the field.

"is a lot better than getting a read game"
Not positive here, but I am assuming he means putting the middle linebacker in the more likely spot at the start is better than waiting to diagnose, or read the play, once it starts to develop. If you stay in your normal position and read the play, you have a better chance of knowing where to move into exactly the right spot, but probably too late.

"on the backside where it's still 4 on 2"
So which player is normally on the backside? The Will linebacker. The Will is aligned to the backside of the play, protecting that side. If the Mike waits, reads the play, and heads toward the backside of the play with the Will, there will be two defenders. I think this means there will be four blockers for those two defenders. That would be some combination of full back, tight end, quarterback, and offensive linemen, depending upon the specific formation. Assume that the tight end picks up the strong-side DE, the right tackle and right guard the two defensive tackles, and the center picks up the weakside defensive end. The backside of the play then has the left tackle, left guard, and fullback, as well as the QB. The specific blocking scheme and pick-ups could differ, but you still have eight offensive players around the running back (5 OL, 1 TE, 1 FB, 1 QB), so the four defensive linemen can be picked up by four of them, potentially leaving four available blockers on the backside. Recall one of the occasional Patriots runs where the running back sees a wall of defenders to the right, then cuts back around the backside and you see Tom Brady sort of move out in front of him.

So he is suggesting that even if the Mike waits to read the play, he will still be at a disadvantage due to the number of blockers, so positioning the Mike to the frontside is the best plan.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

@Tony2046
@Urgent

Thanks to both of you for expanding my understanding of a whole lot of stuff related to the O-line and D play. I hope you will continue to sort out your interpretations in this thread so we can all learn more. I promise I'll take notes and will be ready for a Pop Quiz.

Thanks, too, to the OP for a Thread that had nothing to do with what the Browns are "really" planning to do with their #1, why the Pats will/won't/might/should/should not/must/must not trade Garoppolo, whether Butler and/or Blount will/won't/might sign, how many years Brady "really" can/will/wants to/doesn't want to play and, of course, the latest, why Richard Sherman will/won't/should/should not play next season with the Pats...about none of which anyone on this Board not posting anonymously as Bill Belichick can add a single, solitary piece of useful information, despite dozens upon dozens of Threads and thousands upon thousands of Posts, demonstrating that simple fact!

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

anyone on this Board not posting anonymously as Bill Belichick

So...what's the over/under on how many anonymous accounts BB has here?

I say 3.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

So...what's the over/under on how many anonymous accounts BB has here?

I say 3.

We should have a poll for user who is most likely BB in disguise. My guess is one of the forum trolls.

 

[Tony2046]

Just to add or comment on @Urgent 's post.

When he says Mike is the middle linebacker he is referring to a 4-3 defensive scheme which could be possible because BB uses both. In my previous post I referred to the Mike as the Strong side MLB which is referring to a 3-4 defensive scheme in which there are 4 LB's.

3-4 Defense:

Jack = Weak Outside Linebacker
Sam = Strong Outside LB
Mike = Strong Inside LB
Will = Weak Inside LB

Found this on Bleacher Report. The offense is in 21 personnel and the defense is 3-4. NFL 101: The Basics of the 3-4 Defensive Front

BTW: Eagle Front is a term used to describe which player has which gap responsibility. In this image you see the Sam linebacker responsible for two gaps.



4-3 Defense:
Will
Mike
Sam

This is an image from BR as well. NFL 101: The Basics of the 4-3 Defensive Front


The reason I brought that up is because it gets really interesting when you analyze both schemes and the types of players needed to perform either. During draft day you will hear things like "He would be better suited for a 3-4 defense".

3-4 Linemen would be bigger and more powerful but slower than your 4-3 lineman. Conversely your 3-4 middle linebackers may be bigger than a 4-3 middle linebacker or you would only need one big middle linebacker as opposed to two.

In the 4-3 image Chandler Jones would have been your outside DE. So basically trading Jones was a decision bigger than just a player because it also meant thinking how it would impact your defensive personnel across the board.


But back to @K. Dog original question it would be tough for me to answer because I don't know which defensive scheme BB was looking at. It might have been a 3-4 defense because I think that's what he used primarily in the early years. But no matter which defense he is using @Urgent is correct in that BB is basically discussing how he wants his Mike LB attacking a sliding front. I think the 3-4 image illustrates that a bit with the Gap/Stretch comments.

 

[DaBruinz]

I appreciate that work, it's a good start. But I'm still pretty much in the dark about the original quote. Why the comment about "4 on 2"? If "read game" refers to the read option, why is it directed at the defense? It doesn't seem to make sense in context to parse "read game" as "read option", since it seems like it's a defensive option not an offensive one? What difference does it make if the linebacker goes in the A or B gap - how does that affect Belichick's point - which is what? Why is it important that the offense be in 21? Basically, I still really don't understand what Belichick meant, what he was getting at, and why he made that suggestion.

If you haven't read them, you should read Management Secrets of the New England Patriots Vol 1. & Vol 2.

It makes a huge difference whether the LB goes to the A gaps or the B-Gaps. Especially in a 4-2 if they are using ONE LB to cover the TE or RB out of the backfield.. It's a matter of whether or not the LB takes himself out of the play..

If the Mike is on the front of the slide, then he's got a chance to beat his blocker and stop the play dead. If he's coming from the back side, then he's got more ground to cover AND the play is likely to result in more offensive yardage given up. He's reacting to the play from behind instead of forcing the play to change by being on the front side.

 

[Thelonious]

We should have a poll for user who is most likely BB in disguise. My guess is one of the forum trolls.

Oh, uh, (clears throat), on to Cleveland.