Gasper: Patriots are feeling Colts' draft

[patsinthesnow]

I honestly dont get this "elite team" status. Maybe Brady playing with broken ribs and a broken finger had something to do with his bad performance.

Bring up the Steelers. Without Polamalu they went 9-7. Are you saying they aren't elite? I would put them right up at the top of the AFC for next year.

After the draft, the pats will be at near the top of vegas odds, i guarantee it.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I honestly dont get this "elite team" status. Maybe Brady playing with broken ribs and a broken finger had something to do with his bad performance.

I wonder if the weak and inconsistent O-line had anything to do with that, or the predictable playcalling.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Gasperatriots are feeling Colts' draft

Why not take away Pitt's SBs and say they don't have any with Big Ben?

My point is the 3 SBs is a nice memory, but that's what it is for. Loved being at Houston and loved going to Jacksonville. But it's a memory. I don't hold the Pat's SBs against any other fan's team. I look to the current situation. After the New Orleans game, I walked out of the Super Dome and some Patriots fans start up with a Saints fan that the Patriots have 3 SBs. I guess if it makes you feel better - go for it. But I was thinking about how the Patriots were not an elite team this year. What does winning a Super Bowl 5 years ago have to do with getting your ass kicked on national tv in what was then the biggest game of the year? Not much to me.

It's one thing to be in the mix and not get there. I'd say in 2005 and 2006, you could make a case the Pats could have won a SB. 2007 is looking more and more like a one year aberration of dominance. Skip 2008. In 2009, I wouldn't say the Pats were a team capable of beating anyone in a AFCC or Super Bowl. They got the crap kicked out of them by a wild card team.

My point is that I don't play the game of "We've got 3 SBs" to others. Just as MayoClinic implied that it would be lame of SF fans to throw their 5 out against anyone else. At some point, it fades into history. The Pats 3 SBs are history for me. Nice history. But the 2009 year is current situation. The topic of this thread was about a current elite team and how they got there. Pats weren't an elite team in 2009. Nice record, but not in the mix with the elites. Winning a Super Bowl five years ago doesn't change it.

The freakin colts got bounced in the wildcard last year. Manning was their QB. Year before they got humiliated as well by those superbowless frauds on the left coast... Somehow they have returned to elite status pending one little detail yet to be worked out.

Real patsfans, as opposed to the frontrunners who always seem to have attended all these seminal games of late, waited 42 years for A championship. In 2001 their lone wish was for a playoff game at Foxboro. Three lombardi's in four years was apparently overkill. It's no wonder some of us occasionally feel that a couple of 1-15 or 5-11 seasons wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, restore some semblance of perspective to this so called fanbase.

Manning and Co. got their collective asses kicked for the first eight years of his career and Polian's tenure in Indy. Owned by us through '04, embarassed in '05 by a wildcard Steelers team in their own house, fortunate to get past us to the NFC pushover Bears in '06, abused by the SD Superfrauds in back to back one and done playoff appearances in 2007 and 2008. Now they are back to the show for the second time in 4 years, after rolling over to avoid a potential shot at history, and suddenly they are the poster child for how to build a worthwhile franchise to root for...

 

[wdkantro2]

Re: Gasperatriots are feeling Colts' draft

I don't know what it is, but the Colts manage to plug in guys with no talent on both sides of the ball and are still successful.
See June, Cato. He's made fewer tackles in the last 3 years combined than he did in his last year with the Colts.
Wanna know the real secret to the Colts success? Coaching continuity. They have had the same staff for 10 years.

 

[Spiral]

You pay for bad drafts 2-3 years down the road. Right now, the Patriots are paying for bad drafts in 2008, 2007, and 2006. Other than the first-rouind picks from each of those years, there really aren't any players from those drafts that could be developed. For all the credit he got, the Patriots best draft in years came after Pioli left. Right now, part of the problem is lack of coaching. They need better (and more) coaches, and a couple more drafts like 2009. This is not a short-term process. For all you fair-weather fans, we'll see you back here in 2012.

 

[Tunescribe]

… blanketing Peyton Manning's top targets of Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark like a Snuggie …

… with Welker rendered hors de combat …

… Polian and the Colts got better bargains than a Black Monday shopper…

… but it's like putting buckets on the floor for a leaky ceiling …

… Dante Scarnecchia is a master at turning putty into players …

Boy, that li'l Gasper fella sure can turn a phrase, can't he? What a great football writer! :bricks:

 

[patsinthesnow]

I wonder if the weak and inconsistent O-line had anything to do with that, or the predictable playcalling.

The O-Line, Running problems, 3rd receiver problems, and pass rush can all be fixed through the draft with a 1st and 3 2nd rounders.

The boring offensive and defensive calling, needs to be fixed somehow.

 

[eom]

Re: Gasperatriots are feeling Colts' draft

Comparing to 08 is a bit skewed since Cassel was QB, but as far as 09 goes how many really good teams did they beat, how many of those wins were against crappy teams? How many comebacks did they make? The 09 Patriots were a team that couldn't beat a good team and melted down in games they should have won.

Wins/Losses are stats, you remember what BB said about stats? We had a better win/loss record than the Jets but they would probably mop the floor with us right now and they might very well be the owners of the division next season.

The team needs to make big changes and drafting is part of it.

could we come down off the ledge?

you just got done saying how the pats can't beat any good teams, then went on to make a case about how great the jets are, and how they're better than the pats --- the pats DID beat the jets this year.

the jets are by all rights a .500 team that needed a charity win in week 17 to make the playoffs.
congrats on their playoff success, but teams beat other teams all the time in the nfl --- it's a competitive league.
getting a couple wins in the postseason doesn't make you a juggernaut.

I give the colts all credit for their success, but go take a look at how many close games they eked out against the bulk of the nfl --- they weren't demolishing the best teams in nfl history.
winning the close games is what will separate the average teams from the 'good' teams, but that doesn't mean they weren't close.

go back to 2007 and take a look at the giants --- from memory I think they beat dallas by 3 while owens was hobbled with a sprained ankle, green bay fell in o/t, and then they go on to beat the pats in a miracle finish.
I'm not taking one tiny bit of credit away from the giants for what they did any more than I'd take a victory away from the pats against the raiders, or whoever else you want to list, but many of these games come down to virtual coin flips --- a play here or there is no reason to abandon all hope and blow up a franchise.
had any of those giants games fallen slightly differently we might be talking about a pats team that made history just a couple years ago.

the point being that they definitely had some problems against new orleans and against baltmore in the playoffs, but I wouldn't say the franchise is in some woeful state.
they gave up big plays, which might be the worst, and they just got run over.
the offense wasn't nearly as good as it should have been, but hopefully they can tweak things a bit and get back on track next year.

they gave up one huge opening run for a td to rice, and another big play in letting playmaker suggs get the ball --- outside of that I think the missed fg was the difference in the score.
not to take away from baltimore, or minimize the fact that they pretty much ran over us, but let's not blow up an otherwise successful franchise because this year we weren't the ones who called the coin flip.

indy got themselves bounced not too long ago, and today they're right back in it.
let's see how this great accumulation of talent would do if manning gets knocked out in week one.

 

[alvinnf]

They have another game to win..... And it's a big one.

 

[Hardboiled]

Re: Gasperatriots are feeling Colts' draft

Real patsfans, as opposed to the frontrunners who always seem to have attended all these seminal games of late, waited 42 years for A championship.

HA. Is that the requirement? 42 years? How long have you waited son? Sorry that's not long enough - you're out out of the "Real Pats Fans Club"!

More of the "I suffered though this and that" so I'm a real fan stuff.

Alas, all will be well soon. When the Super Bowl is over in two weeks, the Colts and Saints can go back to fearing and chasing the Patriots.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Gasperatriots are feeling Colts' draft

How does a team who's won 3 Superbowls in 4 years "catch up" to a team who's going to their second in four seasons.

He's really not worth the click. imho of course.

i appreciate the sentiment, but that doesn't reflect the reality of recent seasons.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Re: Gasperatriots are feeling Colts' draft

you just got done saying how the pats can't beat any good teams, then went on to make a case about how great the jets are, and how they're better than the pats --- the pats DID beat the jets this year.

I don't think you're getting where I'm coming from, or maybe I'm doing a poor job or explaining it.

The Jets ranged from mediocre to good this past year but they managed to play very well in the playoffs. We also had moments of excellence but all too often they were shrouded in a cloak of disappointment, the players and the team were flat out inconsistent.

As someone else said, a team really starts to feel the ripples of a draft a few years after said draft, and right now we're suffering from a few mess than stellar drafts. There are plenty of problems with this team, they're generally correctable IF the right things are done but I'm not so sure those things are being done.

Regarding what has been said of the organization and the coaching staff, people have mentioned that the Pats promote from within, and apparently THAT'S why they don't pay coordinators very well. 1) If you only limit yourself to those already in your organization you also miss the opportunity to bring in people who might actually be more talented/qualified simply because they're not already in your organization. 2) you also vastly increase the chances of groupthink, with everyone being schooled in the same mode of viewing things a very strong box develops that people will have trouble thinking outside of.

I would very much like to see not only capable and creative coordinators in place but I'd also like to see outstanding position coaches, strength trainers, treatment specialists, etc. People on this board have talked enviously of Clay Matthews in Green Bay, while we can't know exactly how much credit should go where I think having a guy like Kevin Greene as a linebacker's coach might be a good thing.

YouTube - NFL Video Top 10 Pass Rusher: Kevin Greene

 

[Snake Eyes]

As far as strength & conditioning coaches go, this guy's coach should be flogged.

Jared Veldheer - Offensive Tackle

YouTube - Jared Veldheer 425 lbs Hang Clean Hillsdale College 2009

Freeze the vid right at :26 and look at the angle of his left knee, this guy is absolutely BEGGING for some career ending knee injuries. Why is it that an idiot like me can figure this stuff out but a trainer at a University can't?

Even looking at clips on Hard Knocks you see many players doing very low quality training, better quality training will produce ripples that show up on the field. That being said I have no idea exactly what the Pats have for a training program, hopefully it's solid.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Gasperatriots are feeling Colts' draft

You don't see his math's off? Three SB's in four years vs two SB's in four years ( technically only two appearances, the Colts haven't won it yet). So you tell me, who's catching up to who exactly.

We haven't won anything in 6 years. Since we last one one, the Steelers have won two, and the Colts are taking a shot at their second.

By your logic, the 49ers are one of the best teams in the league right now, and we're playing catch-up with them

 

[Miguel]

Print Friendly Document
The Official Website of the Indianapolis Colts
may be of help.

 

[WelshPat]

'The Pats drafted a good WR in Julian Edelman, who I think is better and has way more potential then Collie.'

Couldn't disagree more.

 

[patsinthesnow]

'The Pats drafted a good WR in Julian Edelman, who I think is better and has way more potential then Collie.'

Couldn't disagree more.

Could you explain why you disagree? In Julian Edelman, I see the Piercy Harvin "wow" factor in punt returns and his jukes.

 

[ivanvamp]

Re: Gasperatriots are feeling Colts' draft

Sorry, that doesn't work any more. Since we last won the SB the Steelers have won 2 and the Colts are positioned to possibly win their 2nd. We're behind. Get real, and get used to it.

Amen (unfortunately). The last time the Pats won the Super Bowl was practically an NFL lifetime ago. The average NFL player lasts about 3 years in the league. It's now 2010, and the last SB victory was on Feb 6, 2005 - five full years ago. Almost twice the length of an average NFL career.

We *were* ahead and *were* the model franchise. We're still in the top tier, but we're no longer the lead dog. No shame in that - basically we were on top from 2001 to Feb 2008, and that's a long stretch of dominance. But now it's time to retool and catch up. Fortunately, this organization does have the ability to do just that, and I have full confidence that they will.

 

[Wretch]

Re: Gasperatriots are feeling Colts' draft

because that was eons ago. the pats simply have not been a well run organization from 2005 onward. poor draft choices, bad free agent signings, hiring bad coaches, etc. it all falls on belichick and the media has let it go for the same reason you give (ie-3 super bowls in 4 years).

The Pats have not been as bad as all that. Lets not forget a 16-0 season and a SB appearance. We got beat by the Giants but we were there. That season was not a failure. The next year Brady goes down to a season ending injury and this year the Pats win the division, but have a very disappointing home play off loss.

Since 2005 the Pats have suffered from a drain on their coaching and front office personnel. That drain is a direct result of other teams trying to emulate the Pats success. How many Colts FO staff or coaches have become GMs, or HCs in the last 5 years? Now look at the Pats: Weis, Crennel, Mangini, McDaniels, Pioli, Dimetroff all leaving for promotions with other teams (or in Weis' case the ND job). So many good people were recruited out of the Pats staff that there has been a brain drain and their replacements haven't performed as well as the originals. Some of those, O'Brien, are still learning on the job and some, Pees, are examples of the peter principle.

The Pats were rebuilding this year (and won the division) and are stacked with draft picks in the next 2 years to rebuild for the long term. There may be misses in those picks but that is just the nature of the draft. The Pats are among the best drafting teams in the league. Complaining because 3rd and 4th round players aren't all pros and 5-7th round players can't make the team is a bit over the top when you look at the quality of players on the team currently and when you consider the league wide averages for what happens to players drafted in those positions.

Do I wish AD wasn't a spoiled athlete, do I wish Chad Jackson wasn't a 2nd round bust? Yes, but for every AD there is a Mike Vrabel, or TBC and for every CJ there is a Vollmer or Edleman. I want the Pats to win every SB but that is unrealistic. As long as they are among the elite teams competing for the SB we as fans should be satisfied. We have one of the greatest QBs and coaches of the SB era. Because of those individuals we will win our fair share of playoff games and SBs.

 

[VJCPatriot]

The Patriots drafts started going sour in 2006. When they drafted Maroney in the first and Chad Jackson in the second. They really have had pretty weak drafts from that point up until 2009, which yielded a bumper crop of contributors.

The 2010 draft is going to be key. It needs to be a lot more like 2009 than 2006 if they want to restock this team and compete for a Superbowl before Brady's window closes.