Focusing On The Weak Link On Defense: DT

[RobertWeathers]

DT has been complained about since 2017 when Branch declined. BB has adapted like the rest of the league. There were as many kickers drafted as nose tackles.

Their DT1 is one of the more underrated players in the NFL.
Their DT2 is one of the best sub-rushers in the NFL.
Allen will play the 30-35% snap early down NT role. If he can’t cut it there will be players available (ex. 2019 Chiefs NT next to Jones).

Notice that BB also let Roberts walk for $2 million & supposedly hasn’t replaced his role. He added two safeties that can play dime LB (Phillips & Dugger) & drafted two hybrid LB types. The game is changing.

Henry, Elliot and Chubbs ran roughshod over the D last year. Not enough size, speed and talent were the reasons.

Adding Phillips and Drugger were nice additions but you can't have smaller, quicker LBs make plays when centers and guards are able to get to the next level to blow them up. There needs to be a player who can take on double teams on the LoS.

Guy is a very good player but he is not a space-eater. Allen is ok. Butler is good but also not a space-eater. Who know what we have in Cowart.

Bentley will take over for Roberts and NE wasn't paying 2M for him anyway.

While I agree the game has evolved, teams still need to stop the run when they NEED to and the 2019 NEP were uneven in that regard.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Henry, Elliot and Chubbs ran roughshod over the D last year. Not enough size, speed and talent were the reasons.

Adding Phillips and Drugger were nice additions but you can't have smaller, quicker LBs make plays when centers and guards are able to get to the next level to blow them up. There needs to be a player who can take on double teams on the LoS.

Guy is a very good player but he is not a space-eater. Allen is ok. Butler is good but also not a space-eater. Who know what we have in Cowart.

Bentley will take over for Roberts and NE wasn't paying 2M for him anyway.

While I agree the game has evolved, teams still need to stop the run when the NEED to and the 2019 NEP were uneven in that regard.

Post shouldn't have been deleted. My apologies.

I get what you are saying & don't necessarily disagree. I'm giving the team's perspective. Elite run games will gash most run defenses as is. Those team's scored 14, 13 & 13 points respectively in those games too.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Post shouldn't have been deleted. My apologies.

I get what you are saying & don't necessarily disagree. I'm giving the team's perspective. Elite run games will gash most run defenses as is. Those team's scored 14, 13 & 13 points respectively in those games too.

100% correct.

What may also is not being discussed is the lack of complimentary football was also a killer. If the NE O was even average (more than 1.8 offensive TDs per game in their last 9) they might have beaten TN and they would not have ran the ball 40 freaking times.

 

[Wozzy]

Henry, Elliot and Chubbs ran roughshod over the D last year. Not enough size, speed and talent were the reasons.

Adding Phillips and Drugger were nice additions but you can't have smaller, quicker LBs make plays when centers and guards are able to get to the next level to blow them up. There needs to be a player who can take on double teams on the LoS.

Guy is a very good player but he is not a space-eater. Allen is ok. Butler is good but also not a space-eater. Who know what we have in Cowart.

Bentley will take over for Roberts and NE wasn't paying 2M for him anyway.

While I agree the game has evolved, teams still need to stop the run when the NEED to and the 2019 NEP were uneven in that regard.

I think there needs to be a differentiation as well between any DT and a Nose Tackle specifically.

Beau Allen replaces Shelton as the only guy who can play the Nose on the team and he's a good young player to bring in. The issue with Nose Tackles on your roster is if they stay healthy the entirety of the season they might only play 20-30% of the defensive snaps and give you nothing on special teams. They burn a roster spot and play minimal snaps.

You're correct that opponents especially in the latter half of last season ran well on the Patriots and BB would prefer they didn't. But harkening back to his defensive game plan for the Giants against the Bills which ended up in the HOF, he sees rushing as a much smaller threat than passing... and rightly so. He doesn't allow rushing yards, but he believes with good fundamentals and leverage he can get a crucial run stop or two in any given game, even with fewer nose tackles taking up valuable roster spots.

That's why a poster's idea here of having a two way player like Onwenu is really intriguing. If Beau Allen can play 20-30% of the Nose Tackle snaps then maybe Onwenu could fill in the gaps on early rushing downs and on the goal line. Eluemunor was basically a run specialist on offense due to his size, they brought him in on short downs and goal line. But if Onwenu can upgrade that position, play a little more guard or possibly some swing tackle but also play DT, that would provide a lot of roster flexibility and add beef to the defensive front. They wouldn't need him to play a lot on defense barring injury, but could use him in spots. His history there at Michigan is pretty promising.

 

[Adam Seward]

I was hoping we would touch on this in the draft. Maybe we go there with a cut vet down the road?

 

[Uptown]

Guy has been a great pickup, and Butler (6 sacks last year) has served well as a situational player.

Don’t feel they need to add an All-Pro/Pro Bowl caliber DT to improve on run D, but another addition would be welcome.

The Mike Pennel move didn’t work out last year (Go figure that he went on to have a very serviceable year in KC..), but hopefully they can take another shot at it on someone else.

Yep. I was a big advocate for Mikey P. BB didn’t share my sentiments. Shame he didn’t work out..

 

[ralmat55]

The porous run D last season was not entirely a DT personnel problem. Collins’ return and Trey Flowers’ departure prompted the coaches to go lighter in their base nickel. Too light, if you ask me. They went from a mostly 3-3 front to what became mostly a 2-4 with edge players like Collins and Simon becoming standup DEs. You can stress gap discipline and technique all you want, but matching size and strength is essential as well.

Belichick is partial to linebackers and the coverage and rush flexibility they present. Based on them essentially swapping Shelton for Allen and not adding any more girth to the DL. I’m thinking Belichick probably sees the edge players being as important in upgrading the run D as the interior line. Copeland and Jennings should be more stout than Collins was for one. But, I’d really like to see Nick Coe make the team and take meaningful snaps as a real DE. And, I it would be good to see the coaches dress Ocwenu as the the emergency 8th OLineman and also use him 8-12 snaps a game as another big man in the middle of the line.

Their pass D promises to be very good again this year. Just as they did down the stretch last season, offenses are going to try to gain yards on the ground, and use play action. This defense has to be better at stopping the run to be as good as they will need to be to win games with a transitioning offense.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That's why a poster's idea here of having a two way player like Onwenu is really intriguing. If Beau Allen can play 20-30% of the Nose Tackle snaps then maybe Onwenu could fill in the gaps on early rushing downs and on the goal line. Eluemunor was basically a run specialist on offense due to his size, they brought him in on short downs and goal line. But if Onwenu can upgrade that position, play a little more guard or possibly some swing tackle but also play DT, that would provide a lot of roster flexibility and add beef to the defensive front. They wouldn't need him to play a lot on defense barring injury, but could use him in spots. His history there at Michigan is pretty promising.

PatsPulpit talked about him being a possibility at NT/DT as he played that position his Frosh year at Michigan.

Maybe that is what BB is thinking?

 

[Hyped]

What I like about our DT's is the ability to generate inside pressure....

Yeah, stopping the run will be hard without beef up front, but it is a team effort...we can gang tackle.

 

[mgteich]

Beau Allen is a big athletic guy who can play nose tackle. Allen, Guy and Butler should form a good rotation, though they needed one more true nose tackle last year and didn't have one in the playoffs.

.

Yes, we need another 320 pound NT/DT. We needed one last year, and we still need one. Cowart chose to carry Cowart as the 4th DT. Perhaps Cowart can fill this role; he didn't last year. Of Onwenu is on the roster as NT, then fine. However, I don't want Onwenu trying to be the swing OG and NT at the same time. He has plenty to learn at one position, and could be valuable at either position.

And, yes I could see belichick bending NFL rules yet again, and listing Onwenu as an OG and only using him as a DT.

 

[Adam Seward]

Yes, we need another 320 pound NT/DT. We needed one last year, and we still need one. Cowart chose to carry Cowart as the 4th DT. Perhaps Cowart can fill this role; he didn't last year. Of Onwenu is on the roster as NT, then fine. However, I don't want Onwenu trying to be the swing OG and NT at the same time. He has plenty to learn at one position, and could be valuable at either position.

And, yes I could see belichick bending NFL rules yet again, and listing Onwenu as an OG and only using him as a DT.

Let the outrage begin

 

[Wozzy]

Yes, we need another 320 pound NT/DT. We needed one last year, and we still need one. Cowart chose to carry Cowart as the 4th DT. Perhaps Cowart can fill this role; he didn't last year. Of Onwenu is on the roster as NT, then fine. However, I don't want Onwenu trying to be the swing OG and NT at the same time. He has plenty to learn at one position, and could be valuable at either position.

And, yes I could see belichick bending NFL rules yet again, and listing Onwenu as an OG and only using him as a DT.

Belichick doesn't have to bend the rules, Onwenu will be a guard who announces himself to refs when he enters the game the same way a 6th offensive lineman does when they line up at TE.

Also if Onwenu isn't expected to start at guard, which he won't assuming Thuney and Mason are healthy, then asking him to pick up a few snaps a game at NT is not too much to ask if he can handle the mental side of it. According to his coaches and teammates in the article I read the kid was a natural wherever they plugged him in and he is certainly big and strong enough to play both ways.

 

[mgteich]

Belichick doesn't have to bend the rules, Onwenu will be a guard who announces himself to refs when he enters the game the same way a 6th offensive lineman does when they line up at TE.

Also if Onwenu isn't expected to start at guard, which he won't assuming Thuney and Mason are healthy, then asking him to pick up a few snaps a game at NT is not too much to ask if he can handle the mental side of it. According to his coaches and teammates in the article I read the kid was a natural wherever they plugged him in and he is certainly big and strong enough to play both ways.

Personally, I like the idea of having two fatties as part of our DL corp, with both being active now that we have a couple of extra active players. I would hope those "extras" would be one each line. It is on the lines that we need the extra active players for the safety of the players.

It's OK to start the defense of Belichick now. My point is that if Onwenu is the 8th OT for the first 8 games and has zero reps at OG and 20 at NT, my guess is that a protest would be filed. We could and would argue is that isn't any different than having our backup OT play some TE.

 

[Wozzy]

Personally, I like the idea of having two fatties as part of our DL corp, with both being active now that we have a couple of extra active players. I would hope those "extras" would be one each line. It is on the lines that we need the extra active players for the safety of the players.

It's OK to start the defense of Belichick now. My point is that if Onwenu is the 8th OT for the first 8 games and has zero reps at OG and 20 at NT, my guess is that a protest would be filed. We could and would argue is that isn't any different than having our backup OT play some TE.

It's a matter of snaps, another NT wouldn't play much at all. A two way player would play enough snaps to justify his position, plus on game day you could use another player that gets higher reps.

When the defensive backfield runs a lot of man coverage it's exhausting, they can rotate another defensive back in there, they can use more matchups in coverage as well. Pass rush is also exhausting, it would be a real benefit to rotate another pass rusher in there to keep them fresh.

A team can't file a protest, there is no rule against it, only not reporting. Plus if Onwenu was active they would use him on jumbo packages on offense, the guy is a load.

 

[mgteich]

.
A team can't file a protest, there is no rule against it, only not reporting. Plus if Onwenu was active they would use him on jumbo packages on offense, the guy is a load.

In the new CBA, a team must have 8 OL's active if they want to have the extra two players active. This is brand new. As I have said, I would expect that team might object to their opposition using this designated OL roster spot for a player than only plays defense.

 

[Wozzy]

In the new CBA, a team must have 8 OL's active if they want to have the extra two players active. This is brand new. As I have said, I would expect that team might object to their opposition using this designated OL roster spot for a player than only plays defense.

But they won't only use him at NT, they used Eluemunor pretty regularly last year in the same run specialist role. Sight unseen I think Onwenu can give them more at guard than Eluemunor, that guy has been in the league for a long time and his only skill seems to be "big."

 

[captain stone]

Andrew Billings - Fat Thor + Leki Fotu = Weak Link Solved.

You're welcome.

 

[Tony2046]

I think there needs to be a differentiation as well between any DT and a Nose Tackle specifically.

Beau Allen replaces Shelton as the only guy who can play the Nose on the team and he's a good young player to bring in. The issue with Nose Tackles on your roster is if they stay healthy the entirety of the season they might only play 20-30% of the defensive snaps and give you nothing on special teams. They burn a roster spot and play minimal snaps.

You're correct that opponents especially in the latter half of last season ran well on the Patriots and BB would prefer they didn't. But harkening back to his defensive game plan for the Giants against the Bills which ended up in the HOF, he sees rushing as a much smaller threat than passing... and rightly so. He doesn't allow rushing yards, but he believes with good fundamentals and leverage he can get a crucial run stop or two in any given game, even with fewer nose tackles taking up valuable roster spots.

That's why a poster's idea here of having a two way player like Onwenu is really intriguing. If Beau Allen can play 20-30% of the Nose Tackle snaps then maybe Onwenu could fill in the gaps on early rushing downs and on the goal line. Eluemunor was basically a run specialist on offense due to his size, they brought him in on short downs and goal line. But if Onwenu can upgrade that position, play a little more guard or possibly some swing tackle but also play DT, that would provide a lot of roster flexibility and add beef to the defensive front. They wouldn't need him to play a lot on defense barring injury, but could use him in spots. His history there at Michigan is pretty promising.

That was @One-If-By-Sea . And yes that's interesting.

M. Onwenu may be converted to NT, so we only drafted two, not three.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

That was @One-If-By-Sea . And yes that's interesting.

It was not me - I read it somewhere. Onmenu, I love that name, played DT as a freshman at UMich, and even said he preferred DLine over OLine. UMich needed him on the OLine, but that does not mean he was better at OLine than DLine.

Having said all that, his test numbers are not great, so don't get your hopes up too high. But it would be a typical BB "playing chess" move.

 

[Ross12]

In the new CBA, a team must have 8 OL's active if they want to have the extra two players active. This is brand new. As I have said, I would expect that team might object to their opposition using this designated OL roster spot for a player than only plays defense.

They can object, but I don’t know what their chances of success are. Belichick can easily say that the player is both an NT and a reserve OG. If both Mason and Thuney are injured then Onwenu would play at OG. The fact is that most end-of-roster offensive linemen will never play any snaps, so it only makes sense to give him a secondary job that gives him snaps. Teams can say “he’s only playing snaps at DT!” but chances are their own 8th OL is only playing snaps at <null> so does it even matter?

The more I talk about it, the more convinced I am that Bill definitely WILL do it; it’s a quintessentially Belichickian loophole.